How To Break In Amp

[rando]

The unspoken reality that is giving me great amusement here is a very likely scenario where the same amp has been out on a number of 30 day trials.  Wherein each new "owner" dutifully fulfills the lengthy break in cycle they subscribe to. 

[mav52]

4 hours ago, mav52 said:

Best advice, contact your amp maker and ask them. They built it and should know better than anyone on this forum if it requires breakin and how long and using what method to break it in.

From PS Audio

 

We have noticed that the Stellar line needs a fairly long time to fully burn in.

Through some tests and customer feedback, 250 hours of burn in has allowed it to break in about 90% of the way.

The last 10% takes a bit longer, but critical can be done after that 250 hour mark.

Best,

James Herod  |   Customer Service   |   PS Audio

4826 Sterling Drive, Boulder, CO 80301

Ph 866-406-8946 | Fax 720-406-8967

[The Computer Audiophile]

I don't like babysitting adults. Please keep the conversation civil.

[Sal1950]

3 hours ago, AJ Soundfield said:

Yes, someone should ask these very same manufacturers whether it's better to buy superior sounding used equipment, or the crappy new ones they or their dealers are selling, see what they say.

LOL, My quartet of 20+ year old Adcom amps now sound glorious after this extended breakin. Smooth as a babies butt and clear as glass, thousands of veils have been lifted.  Why would I ever want to trade that for something new?

 

3 hours ago, kilroy said:

The problem with some of the "objectivist" posters is that they  seem to take pleasure in telling others they are wrong, even though they are in the minority. Sort of like the people on the street corner saying the end is near.

Problem with some "subjectivist" members is they never want to hear that what they think they hear are just delusions. They feel better after wasting lots of time or money and have no interest in the truth. It's not healthy to keep your head buried in the sand for extended periods.  

Sort of like the schizophrenic who won't take his meds, preferring his imaginary world to one without his "friends".

[The Computer Audiophile]

Why does anyone care what an objectivist or subjectivist says or thinks? Live and let live and, post your own thoughts not criticisms of "the other side." 

 

I couldn't care less if someone purchases an amp based on the build of materials and spec sheets or if they purchase an amp based on the way it sounds or if they don't purchase an amp. What I care about is the fact that people bitch at others for their beliefs. That's no fun. What is fun, is reading about people's experience whether it's based on their great experience purchasing on specs or listening. 

 

Relax people. No need to attack anyone for a belief or sharing that belief. 

[Norton]

I'm a "break in" agnostic, but why not just listen to it for the 30days? I can't imagine buying a new piece of kit and choosing not to  listen to it.  For me  if something is worth having it should already sound better than your existing kit even without being "broken in".  So you get to enjoy it for 30 days and if you believe in such things it will be well on the way to be being broken in by then.

 

 

[BigAlMc]

2 hours ago, rando said:

The unspoken reality that is giving me great amusement here is a very likely scenario where the same amp has been out on a number of 30 day trials.  Wherein each new "owner" dutifully fulfills the lengthy break in cycle they subscribe to. 

 

Sorry Rando but to follow that logic then you're saying that if you buy a high end amp you don't notice that the box has been opened and the unit has been used?

 

Personally I'd spot that right away and send it right back - unless I bought it as 'open box' or 'demo unit'

 

I think the op has a valid question and is correct to try and follow the advice from PS Audio in order to best decide if it meets his needs.

[mansr]

1 hour ago, BigAlMc said:

Sorry Rando but to follow that logic then you're saying that if you buy a high end amp you don't notice that the box has been opened and the unit has been used?

Any company allowing returns will obviously inspect the parts and repackage them as new.

[The Computer Audiophile]

14 minutes ago, mansr said:

Any company allowing returns will obviously inspect the parts and repackage them as new.

 

I believe this is illegal in the US.

[BigAlMc]

I respectfully disagree @mansr 

 

That's called 'open box' and sold as such on reputable hifi dealers websites / stores. 

 

I'm not saying there probably aren't some chancers that try that sort of stuff. But I'd hope it's not the general practice. My Oppo UDP-205 arrived today and opening the box was a glorious experience . 

 

My point is I'd have known if it was opened previously and repackaged. As I'm sure would the Op with his PS Audio. PS Audio kit comes in top notch boxing and wrapping. It's a great experience opening one of their boxes. 

[rando]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

What is fun, is reading about people's experience whether it's based on their great experience purchasing on specs or listening. 

 

Relax people. No need to attack anyone for a belief or sharing that belief. 

It's unfortunate when clever responses that could further the scope and awareness on a topic end up being seized upon by one side or the other out of the control of the person offering them.  Chasing out the 10% lie being inserted into 90% truth is going to require all parties here agreeing to some genteel code of behavior with enough stick behind it to make outbursts rare and manageable. 

 

1 hour ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Sorry Rando but to follow that logic then you're saying that if you buy a high end amp you don't notice that the box has been opened and the unit has been used?

 

Personally I'd spot that right away and send it right back - unless I bought it as 'open box' or 'demo unit'

 

I think the op has a valid question and is correct to try and follow the advice from PS Audio in order to best decide if it meets his needs.

I thought for a good awhile about posting something that could be taken less constructively than the spirit I was offering it in.  Anyone doing an in home demo stands a good chance of returning the item.  Returning it in as new physical condition or being charged per the contract they agreed to.  Especially when dealing with a small production item like an amp it strikes me as less than obscene the offering party would test and clean it upon reception.  If that party happens to be the manufacturer, instead of an independent dealer, they have every legal right to certify with new parts and rebox the item for another customer wishing to partake in their demo program.  There was no absolute in what I typed.    

 

Beyond that I find the blanket meaning of "breaking in" being touted here greatly lacking.  This is not a natural item that will relax with use (Such as a heavy leather hiking boot that easily causes ten times as much damage to your feet in days than they will do to the leather over a lifetime.)  Asking the customer to display some modicum of patience using layman terms is hardly a technical treatise on any actual changes that are occurring in their product while in the hands of a potentially happy customer.  What is happening in their house, and mind , is their business and in this case does very closely describes the process of someone breaking in a new set of boots.  Using whatever methods they subscribe to with the accompanying varied real world results.      

[DancingSea]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I believe this is illegal in the US.

 

Using Crutchfield as an example, all their returns are sold as either open box, or as scratch & dent - all at a 10% - 15% discount.  When shopping with them, I actively seek out those deals.  With my Sonus Farber's, there was a minor issue.  By the time it was all settled, Crutchfield gave me 25% off to avoid having to deal with a return.  Then I had the issue rectified via warranty on my own.

 

I seriously doubt PS Audio is repackaging stuff and selling it as new.  They are a high brow company, there's no upside to such a practice for them.  PS Audio gives generous trade in discounts, their mindset is clearly not to nickel and dime.  They offer free shipping, free return shipping, and no restocking fee.

[BigAlMc]

15 minutes ago, rando said:

It's unfortunate when clever responses that could further the scope and awareness on a topic end up being seized upon by one side or the other out of the control of the person offering them.  Chasing out the 10% lie being inserted into 90% truth is going to require all parties here agreeing to some genteel code of behavior with enough stick behind it to make outbursts rare and manageable. 

 

I thought for a good awhile about posting something that could be taken less constructively than the spirit I was offering it in.  Anyone doing an in home demo stands a good chance of returning the item.  Returning it in as new physical condition or being charged per the contract they agreed to.  Especially when dealing with a small production item like an amp it strikes me as less than obscene the offering party would test and clean it upon reception.  If that party happens to be the manufacturer, instead of an independent dealer, they have every legal right to certify with new parts and rebox the item for another customer wishing to partake in their demo program.  There was no absolute in what I typed.        

 

Hi Rando - yeah fair point that the manufacturer could potentially repackage the item better than a store. 

 

I would hope most wouldn't. But I guess they could. 

 

PS Audio are a class act with a loyal following. Pretty confident they wouldn't. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[rando]

Crutchfield, Walmart, and so on are not primarily dealing in or personally responsible for hand making small scale niche items of fairly significant value.  What they are doing is recapturing the greater percentage of extremely high markup consumer electronics with a significantly higher replacement and failure rate inherent to mass production in multiple factories.    

 

Given the level of expertise and craftsmanship displayed in audio equipment of this level I personally would accept a fair amount of practical testing had occurred on my new amp.  Would I be more appreciative of the fact it happened in a lab by a QC tech, yes.  The largest difference here is the skilled person building it would throw out a single bad part of the thousands used and make sure one meeting their high standards is used.  A <name brand amp> made by the hundreds of thousands would not be afforded that level of attention or refined parts.

 

I'm getting further from my original purpose here.  By no means was I saying this or any other company in the audiophile segment does repackage customer returned products.  My hope was that by introducing an absurdity it would relax the hyper focus being applied.  At least a few people found the contrast to be good humor.  Please don't send them an angry letter asking for assurances.    

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

Hi Rando - yeah fair point that the manufacturer could potentially repackage the item better than a store. 

 

I would hope most wouldn't. But I guess they could.

I see no problem sending a lightly used item through the usual production QC and treating as new.

 

While studying engineering, I worked a summer doing QC and repairs on studio photo flashes. The new units were put through an automated test sequence firing every 5 seconds for around 24 hours. Once in a while a bad capacitor or diode would go up in smoke. When this happened, the unit was taken aside, repaired, and sold as new.

[Ralf11]

Will either the OP himself or his amp be broken in before this thread ends?

[mansr]

5 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Will either the OP himself or his amp be broken in before this thread ends?

Before the thread is broken in, you mean.

[DancingSea]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Will either the OP himself or his amp be broken in before this thread ends?

 

Ha ha.  Yes, I went to bed last under the Hawaiian moon and entered a peaceful slumber.  I awoke to 50+ email notifications from CA regarding my post!

 

Alas, may we each find joy in our beloved music - be it with, or without a broken in amp.

[Norton]

For bicycle components, the old adage was that Shimano wears out and Campagnolo wears in, meaning that Shimano kit was optimum performance out of the box and if anything, could only deteriorate with use.  

 

Not sure that particular comparison is true anymore, but interested if there are any HIFi manufacturers who go out of their way to advise that their kit doesn't need "breaking in"?

[AJ Soundfield]

4 minutes ago, Norton said:

interested if there are any HIFi manufacturers who go out of their way to advise that their kit doesn't need "breaking in"?

If 95% of your potential customers believe in such things, that wouldn't make much sense

[mansr]

6 minutes ago, Norton said:

For bicycle components, the old adage was that Shimano wears out and Campagnolo wears in, meaning that Shimano kit was optimum performance out of the box and if anything, could only deteriorate with use.

Well, I have worn out some Shimano parts.

6 minutes ago, Norton said:

Interested if there are any HIFi manufacturers who go out of their way to advise that their kit doesn't need "breaking in"?

 

Just now, AJ Soundfield said:

If 95% of your potential customers believe in such things, that wouldn't make much sense

Yeah, if I sold audio gear I'd play along just to avoid losing sales.

[unbalanced output]

Regarding break in - it is very component dependent. My headphone amp with its big cap had the most visible effect over time. I remember the bass becoming thin then boomy at around 80 hours before settling, and this was also documented by other owners. Therefore the burn in of caps is real (just buy an unit and try for yourself if you don't believe me). 

 

That said, I have only noticed mild to no change in most equipment. 

 

Ps. computer processors also burn in - obercockers know it well. 

[Jud]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

I see no problem sending a lightly used item through the usual production QC and treating as new.

 

As Chris correctly said, selling a customer return as new is illegal in the US.

 

 I thought Rando was referring to the practice of having a demo unit that is provided to customers as such.  When the demo unit is returned, a new unit is sent if the customer agrees to purchase.

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

As Chris correctly said, selling a customer return as new is illegal in the US.

In that case, I wouldn't expect reputable vendors to do this. I still don't see why it shouldn't be allowed, but the law is what it is.

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

I thought Rando was referring to the practice of having a demo unit that is provided to customers as such.  When the demo unit is returned, a new unit is sent if the customer agrees to purchase.

If re-boxing is illegal, that seems like a much better option.

[Jud]

Just now, mansr said:

In that case, I wouldn't expect reputable vendors to do this. I still don't see why it shouldn't be allowed, but the law is what it is.

If re-boxing is illegal, that seems like a much better option.

 

There are all sorts of ways to do this.  You can have the first customer’s inspected (and if necessary, repaired) return become the next customer’s demo or rental or discounted refurbished item.  You can sell it to a reseller who carries refurbished or “B stock” gear at a discount.  Lots more I’m sure I haven’t thought of.