How To Break In Amp

[Ralf11]

I think the OP's real issue is to complete the (putative) burn-in of active devices in his amp BEFORE the return privilege expires.

 

I favor the out of phase speakers facing each other (bridge them) and a mono test of one channel vs the other if possible - both posted above.

 

I am not going to claim that burn-in is real and not due to the well-known accommodation of the listener over time.

[agladstone]

You need to have some volume coming out of pre-Amp to amp to speakers for burn-in. 

Its supposed to be done at "moderate sound level", but even low volume will be better than none. 

Just leave it on and playing 24/7 for at least 100 to 200 hours. 

Vary the sound level as needed (really low at night, louder when your in the room and want some background music). 

Internet radio and / or World's longest playlist are good choices for source to burn-in, I would think that CD's are not the best choice (unless played on repeat?)

[AJ Soundfield]

50 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

In my experience, its not so black and white.  For instance, with the Stellar Gain Cell DAC, I listened out of the box - didn't sound very good.  Listened at 50 hours, still only average.  Then I let it run another 150 hours, with no listening in between and reevaluated.  The sound was dramatically different.  Because I didn't listen for 150 hours, my perceptions for this particular device were largely left untouched.  I was not brought along gradually, I took 6 days off from listening to any music at all.

Right, that's exactly what I said, perceptions change. You are not in absolute control of your perceptions, they are malleable and fallible, like every other human on earth.

 

Quote

I think for what you are saying to be totally true, then all of this equipment would sound the same to everyone.  

No, that's the exact opposite, precisely because of the scientific fact that peoples perceptions change and vary.

So stuff does indeed sound different to different people, even when there is zero change. This is basic human psychology 101, not a "theory", like audiophile beliefs about "burn in".

Btw, this is easily testable by having an audiophile listen to a new vs use "burned" piece of equipment, without knowing which was which. Then, the once perceived "effects", disappear like witches at dawn.

Or just buy used all the time, since new always bad, "burned" always good.

 

cheers,

 

AJ

[pkane2001]

22 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

Or just buy used all the time, since new always bad, "burned" always good.

 

It's a mystery as to why or how audio equipment always improves as it breaks-in, never gets worse. Maybe like fine wine, audio equipment needs to be stored for a few years to let it mature? At the right temperature, of course.  I have some finely aged audio equipment that's just about ready to be consumed. Anyone interested in buying? 

[DancingSea]

1 hour ago, AJ Soundfield said:

Then, the once perceived "effects", disappear like witches at dawn.

AJ

 

But that itself is a perception.  Will your perception that the "effects" will "disappear like witches at dawn" also apply to your perception that the witches will disappear at dawn?  Will your own perception that burn in doesn't matter also disappear at dawn?  Is it a matter of what is perceived, or that very act of perceiving?

 

Is your perception that the witches disappear anymore valid than another's that burn in matters?  Where do you draw that line?  Isn't the only difference really that your perception is your own, thus more valid in your mind?

 

You're really talking about the placebo effect.  But not all of life, or all of medicine, or all of audiophile-ness is tied to perception nor exclusively subject to the placebo effect.  Isn't it more of a mixture of placebo, perception, and reality?  Aren't we all mixtures?

 

The real question is what's real beyond perception of the mind?  Is the mind the only thing capable of perceiving?   Or are other forces at work?

 

That's the real mystery.  Just sayin' 8-)

[Jud]

10 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

It's a mystery as to why or how audio equipment always improves as it breaks-in, never gets worse.

 

You could say the same about baseball gloves (that they always improve with break-in).  There are some things that do uncontroversially improve with break-in.  Are some or all audio electronics included among these things?  Heck if I know, and heck if anyone who thinks he or she *does* know is going to convince the rest of us here today. 

 

I like to try to answer what's asked.  The OP asked how to do break-in conveniently, not whether it exists.  Trying to convince him it doesn't in this particular thread is to me like those threads I often see where someone asks for the best DAC under $X, and predictably there are the folks who post about DACs costing $2X and $3X because they are just the greatest thing ever and the OP must buy them.

 

Shorter: Let's generally try to be helpful without actively giving misinformation, rather than trying to convince someone else of the error of his ways.  Yes, there are times when being helpful means telling someone he or she has the wrong idea.  But I try to save that for situations where what the questioner is wanting to do will make things worse, rather than (IMO) make no appreciable change.

[AJ Soundfield]

10 hours ago, DancingSea said:

 

But that itself is a perception.

Right. I don't any problem with your or any one else perception, you heard this you saw that. You prefer this over that. Pure subjectivity. No problem.

 

"Problems" only arise, when you make objectively falsifiable claims, like the cause of you perception is not in your head, but due to an electrical change in a widget (like "burn in"), resulting in an audible change in the soundfield.

That, is easily falsified.

The sounds in your head, not so much. Yet you dismiss the possibility, it is purely psychogenic in nature and must reside in the soundwaves.

[pkane2001]

17 minutes ago, Jud said:

I like to try to answer what's asked.  The OP asked how to do break-in conveniently, not whether it exists. 

So an answer that a prolonged break-in of electronic equipment is not necessary beyond a simple warm-up period is somehow inconvenient or inappropriate because the OP may not believe in this? Do I only have to provide advice that fits in with the beliefs of the OP? 

[mav52]

15 hours ago, DancingSea said:

Aloha From Maui,

 

Is it possible to break in a new power amp with the volume turned down?  I'd like to run it for several days non stop going CD Player ---> Pre Amp/ DAC ---> new Power Amp ---> Speakers.  I live in a small house, thus having the volume up 24/7 isn't going to work.

 

So if I set it all up, have the load running through the chain, but no volume on the Pre Amp - will that do just as good a job breaking in as playing with the volume up?

 

The same question applies to just having the new power amp plugged and turned on, sitting by itself and not connected to anything but the power.

 

Thanks. 

Best advice, contact your amp maker and ask them. They built it and should know better than anyone on this forum if it requires breakin and how long and using what method to break it in.

[AJ Soundfield]

6 minutes ago, mav52 said:

Best advice, contact your amp maker and ask them. They built it and should know better than anyone on this forum if it requires breakin and how long and using what method to break it in.

Exactly, since break in is non-imaginary, but a manufacturer known physical fact.

So when they say

Quote

 

"The break in period for your widget is 100 days minimum. Don't worry about the mediocre sound, it turns glorious after 100 days.

Oh, by the way, the money back return period is 99 days. Thanks and have a nice day!"

 

Sit back and relax 

[Jud]

16 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

So an answer that a prolonged break-in of electronic equipment is not necessary beyond a simple warm-up period is somehow inconvenient or inappropriate because the OP may not believe in this? Do I only have to provide advice that fits in with the beliefs of the OP? 

 

I would gently suggest arguing about break-in in a thread entitled, oh, say, "Let's have an unending argument about break-in!", so we all know whether or not we want to participate. 

 

For this particular thread, the guy believes in break-in and wants to give his amp what he thinks of as a fair shot to burn in before deciding whether to keep or return it.  I suggested a convenient way to accomplish what he wants and make him comfortable in his decision.  If the vendor's recommended burn-in period was longer than the demo period, then I would have had something quite different to say. 

[mansr]

50 minutes ago, Jud said:

You could say the same about baseball gloves (that they always improve with break-in).  There are some things that do uncontroversially improve with break-in.  Are some or all audio electronics included among these things?

Gloves and shoes break in by adapting to the particular shape of our hands and feet. Nothing analogous exists for electronic components.

50 minutes ago, Jud said:

The OP asked how to do break-in conveniently, not whether it exists.

If it doesn't exist, nothing needs to be done. It's the ultimate convenience.

[Jud]

Just now, mansr said:

If it doesn't exist, nothing needs to be done. It's the ultimate convenience.

 

Yup, which is an alternate suggestion to the OP: If it doesn't exist, there's nothing you need to do, so that's the most convenient of all.  But of course it's his choice whether to go to the trouble or not.

[AJ Soundfield]

2 minutes ago, Jud said:

If it doesn't exist, there's nothing you need to do, so that's the most convenient of all. 

But it does exist. This is a scientific fact.

His brain/perception does need some period of time to "break in" to the unchanged soundfield.

As such, he does need to do something. "Listen" until that break in occurs.

[AJ Soundfield]

Btw, Dr Toole dedicated an entire chapter in his book to real "break in"...if one is interested in such facts

https://books.google.com/books?id=tYXOAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=floyd+toole+human+adaptation&source=bl&ots=o4rNdl4ZKY&sig=DOPXqu5v56H-r3EcskDg2KBhi28&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjLjtXS9b_UAhUDOz4KHYrqB4YQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&q=floyd toole human adaptation&f=false

[jabbr]

12 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

It's a mystery as to why or how audio equipment always improves as it breaks-in, never gets worse.

I think that certain people say this but it's not true. Certain effects like enhancing treble may at first sound good but over time not so much. There is unquestionably an interaction between actual and psychoacoustic effects. I've heard equipment that I either don't like or else has gotten worse over time  

 

All that said there are nonlinearities that may "settle" over time -- there are many many things that are measurable but unclear if they are audible. A drastic example that makes the point would be measuring the Ghz bandwidth of an interconnect or god forbid an AC power cable  

[BigAlMc]

15 hours ago, DancingSea said:

 

It has a 30 day in home trial.  I noticed with the Pre Amp/ DAC (PS Audio Stellar Gain), burn in transformed the sound, I did 200 hours.  Initially, it sounded mediocre at best.

 

The amp is the matching Stellar Gain S300.  I've read on the PS Audio forums that it greatly benefits from burn in as well.  So I'm trying to get to the promised land as quickly as possible to give plenty of listening time before the 30 day return window closes.

 

Hi DancingSea,

 

Interesting post and conundrum. I have my eye on the Stellar M700 mono's and therefore face the same issue. I'd like to do a home trial as well as it's the best way to know if they are worth the money. And have read the posts on the PS Audio forums saying the sound improved dramatically after burn in.

 

Most UK dealers would balk at 30 days trial and I think 14 days in the most likely trial period.

 

I'd probably go for turn the volume way low (when not listening obviously) and leave it playing.

 

Will be interested to hear how you get on with your S300 and the trial.

 

Best of luck with them. I rooting for them to win you over but for purely selfish reasons 

 

Cheers,

Alan

[kilroy]

The problem with some of the "objectivist" posters is that they  seem to take pleasure in telling others they are wrong, even though they are in the minority. Sort of like the people on the street corner saying the end is near.

 

Even more unfortunate, perhaps, is that some people want to open a debate with them that turns it into yet another down hill wasted CA post.

 

 In this case I would question why they are even here as they're not helping the OP at all. 

[mav52]

To the OP, who makes your amp / model ?

[BigAlMc]

I'm not the Op but he said it was the PS Audio - S300

 

http://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-s300-power-amplifier/

[plissken]

32 minutes ago, kilroy said:

The problem with some of the "objectivist" posters is that they  seem to take pleasure in telling others they are wrong, even though they are in the minority. Sort of like the people on the street corner saying the end is near.

 

Even more unfortunate, perhaps, is that some people want to open a debate with them that turns it into yet another down hill wasted CA post.

 

 In this case I would question why they are even here as they're not helping the OP at all. 

 

Any one can test the effects of 'burn in'. Just play music through one channel of an amp for 200 hours.

 

Afterwords have get a mono track and play through one channel of the amp and then the other. Best to have someone swap out for you blindly if you are after the truth of the matter.

 

Or buy used.

[wwaldmanfan]

1 hour ago, mav52 said:

Best advice, contact your amp maker and ask them. They built it and should know better than anyone on this forum if it requires breakin and how long and using what method to break it in.

 

I contacted PS Audio with this question when contemplating purchase of one of their DACs. They recommended a 200-hour burn-in period. The usual reasons were given. I asked the guy if I ran it 24/7 for a week with the connected amp turned all the way down would that be sufficient, and he said yes.

I think it possible that certain active electronic components settle in after a break-in period--speakers, vacuum tubes, capacitors, etc. Run your rig as you normally would but at lowered volume when not actively listening. Don't try to quantify how much it changes after a week or two, simply decide, at that point, if you like the sound or not.

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, plissken said:

Or buy used.

Buy at a fire sale.

[AJ Soundfield]

Yes, someone should ask these very same manufacturers whether it's better to buy superior sounding used equipment, or the crappy new ones they or their dealers are selling, see what they say.

[STC]

45 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

Yes, someone should ask these very same manufacturers whether it's better to buy superior sounding used equipment, or the crappy new ones they or their dealers are selling, see what they say.

 

I did. One manufacturer from US and another one from UK. Both gave their honest opinion to get the used as I they were superior.