system matching

[Lebouwsky]

Last weekend my kind neighbor and I went shopping for a Dynaudio focus 260 in the second hand market. It was offered privately for a decent price, so up we went. A kind man showed us the way, offered us something to drink and showed us the babies I got my sight on. Optically it was 9/10. The rest of his chain contained some Naim components, a Chord Hugo dac and a computer. The focus 260 were to be replaced by much more expansive PMC fact8 or 12, which gave him “a real good upgrade from an already great sounding system”. The investment he did in this system was quite big, even for audiopfile standards. Boy were we excited.

 

 

He asked us what kind of music we preferred. From the moment he pushed the play button a dreadful sound was fired at us. Just dreadful. It was harsh, fluffy bottom, instruments blurred and it sounded…..wrong. Technically there was nothing wrong, all was there, but just…wrong. My neighbor and I looked at each other for a brief moment and both knew what the other was thinking. O my god! How could this kind man not hear it. I mean, this was not a matter of personal preferences. We’re not talking about up front vs laid back or any of that kind. And no, my neighbor and I don’t like the same cup of tea. He likes energetic, I like organic, he’s a B&W fan, I’m a Dynaudio guy, his system is for movies and some music, my system is for music and some movies.

 

 

Any audiophile with some listening experience and some good ears would have kindly thanked the man and started running to the car. Yet I bought the focus 260, and here’s why: I own the Dynaudio Focus 160 and knew what the 260 was capable of. So I payed the man and we drove home.

 

 

Back at home we immediately connected the focus 260 to my system, which contains  of a server, Sotm sms200, Uptone regen, some lps, Schiit Gungnir and an AMR am77 (which I love). Then I pressed play and we were treated by this wonderful enjoyable sound. Everything the 160 had was there, organic, silky smooth with lots of detail and control. But now with a much wider sound stage, much more controlled and deeper bottom and an improved mid. We smiled at each other, this is what we’d hoped to hear.

 

 

So here goes the cliché of the month: system matching, system matching, system matching.

 

Have a great day.

[Sam Lord]

How do you know something wasn't wrong with his system?  Without isolating his components and testing each of them until a culprit appears, you can't know that all were performing okay.  Sometimes a screwy room, for instance a wobbly ceiling, will destroy the bass.  And there is speaker placement and attitude, and power...so much can be wrong.  IME, matching is nearly the last thing you should suspect in such cases.  You could be right, that there was a gross mismatch, but those were all decent components.

[Lebouwsky]

10 minutes ago, Sam Lord said:

How do you know something wasn't wrong with his system?  Without isolating his components and testing each of them (until a culprit appears), you can't know that all were performing okay.  Sometimes a screwy room, for instance a wobbly ceiling, will destroy the bass.  And there is speaker placement and attitude, and power...so much can be wrong.  IME, matching is nearly the last thing you should suspect.  You _could_ be right, that there was a gross mismatch, but those were all decent components.

 I would lie if I said I wasn't releaved when things sounded right at home. But the deal was to good to let is pass by. I guess it was a combination of luck, experience and some good karma maybe.

[Sam Lord]

Good deal!  I would have made the same jump: I love Dyns, and chances were the bad sound had another cause (there being so many).

[unbalanced output]

What Naim system did he have? Was it serviced? Power supplies? Nac cables? It is actually quite easy to screw up a Naim system by mixing components, but I find that generally Naim and Dynaudio go along together well, and also I know Hugo is a quite popular choice to go with Naim (haven't heard it myself though). 

 

I also have the Focus and a Naim integrated. Having auditioned it before buying along with the new Contours, I knew it could sound fabulous. However, my initial experience was terrible. Fine tuning the setup (particularly the toe-in) and changing the cables for low capacitance ones made a night and day difference! It went from being quickly fatiguating and unimpressive to very rich and enjoyable (even more after plugging the Lampi in, but that's a different chapter in the story).

 

Have fun with the Focus, they're terrific speakers!

[semente]

2 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

So here goes the cliché of the month: system matching, system matching, system matching.

 

 

For that you must learn how to listen. 

[AJ Soundfield]

Well, in large scale listening tests, folks who self identify as audiophiles tend to do worse than both trained and untrained listeners, so this might just be a pin prick of reality.

As Stereophile founder J Gordon Holt said, "Today, "good" sound is whatever one likes". Obviously that gents "good" was not your version of it.
 

[AJ Soundfield]

3 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

 

So here goes the cliché of the month: system matching, system matching, system matching.

What if he just had one speaker wired out of phase, something I've heard at over a dozen audio shows in systems set up by "experts"? The only "matching" needed there is perhaps terminal color.

[unbalanced output]

1 hour ago, AJ Soundfield said:

What if he just had one speaker wired out of phase, something I've heard at over a dozen audio shows in systems set up by "experts"? The only "matching" needed there is perhaps terminal color.

 

That's another easy screwup...

[Lebouwsky]

4 hours ago, AJ Soundfield said:

What if he just had one speaker wired out of phase, something I've heard at over a dozen audio shows in systems set up by "experts"? The only "matching" needed there is perhaps terminal color.

If that would have bin the case, the salesman would have noticed something was very wrong. He didn't.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

4 minutes ago, Lebouwsky said:

If that would have bin the case, the salesman would have noticed something was very wrong. He didn't.

 

Right, just what I said, all these salesmen at the shows couldn't recognize something as basic as a channel polarity inversion.

Something that makes the sound "there", but terribly wrong. But they couldn't recognize it instantly.

[crenca]

7 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

Last weekend my kind neighbor and I went shopping for a Dynaudio focus 260 in the second hand market. It was offered privately for a decent price, so up we went. A kind man showed us the way, offered us something to drink and showed us the babies I got my sight on. Optically it was 9/10. The rest of his chain contained some Naim components, a Chord Hugo dac and a computer. The focus 260 were to be replaced by much more expansive PMC fact8 or 12, which gave him “a real good upgrade from an already great sounding system”. The investment he did in this system was quite big, even for audiopfile standards. Boy were we excited.

 

 

He asked us what kind of music we preferred. From the moment he pushed the play button a dreadful sound was fired at us. Just dreadful. It was harsh, fluffy bottom, instruments blurred and it sounded…..wrong. Technically there was nothing wrong, all was there, but just…wrong. My neighbor and I looked at each other for a brief moment and both knew what the other was thinking. O my god! How could this kind man not hear it. I mean, this was not a matter of personal preferences. We’re not talking about up front vs laid back or any of that kind. And no, my neighbor and I don’t like the same cup of tea. He likes energetic, I like organic, he’s a B&W fan, I’m a Dynaudio guy, his system is for movies and some music, my system is for music and some movies.

 

 

Any audiophile with some listening experience and some good ears would have kindly thanked the man and started running to the car. Yet I bought the focus 260, and here’s why: I own the Dynaudio Focus 160 and knew what the 260 was capable of. So I payed the man and we drove home.

 

 

Back at home we immediately connected the focus 260 to my system, which contains  of a server, Sotm sms200, Uptone regen, some lps, Schiit Gungnir and an AMR am77 (which I love). Then I pressed play and we were treated by this wonderful enjoyable sound. Everything the 160 had was there, organic, silky smooth with lots of detail and control. But now with a much wider sound stage, much more controlled and deeper bottom and an improved mid. We smiled at each other, this is what we’d hoped to hear.

 

 

So here goes the cliché of the month: system matching, system matching, system matching.

 

Have a great day.

 

 

Interesting experience.  I too lean with others that it was probably the room/speaker placement or some gross error (phase, malfunctioning component) as much as anything.  I have been struggling with a very nasty notch around 80hz in my listening room - truly, it goes all the way down to 0    That said, the matching no doubt had something to do with it as well.

[unbalanced output]

28 minutes ago, Lebouwsky said:

If that would have bin the case, the salesman would have noticed something was very wrong. He didn't.

 

 

Don't underestimate the ability of people to screw up simple things. Naim amps have the connectors mirrored on the amp end (speakers are normally not), it is actually quite easy to connect them reversed.  

[unbalanced output]

18 minutes ago, crenca said:

 I have been struggling with a very nasty notch around 80hz in my listening room - truly, it goes all the way down to 0  

 

About 80 Hz is the ressonant frequency of the concrete floor on mine, however it didnt seem to be an issue so far. 80Hz is typical for crossover frequencies though. Could that be?

[Norton]

Other than certain specific circumstances  (e,g.low power amps and sensitive speakers) I'm sceptical of the need to match components.  Surely components offering a neutral uncoloured sound  will work together in any combination, matching suggests a process where one shortcoming is offset by another ( e.g rather than taming a "bright" DAC with a "warm" amp, just start with a neutral DAC)

[davide256]

Source determines the max fidelity you can get... you can get musical results from a great source with a mediocre system but you can't make the reverse work. Saying just "a computer" sure sounds like the problem was source.

[Abtr]

IME, USB audio can sound pretty horrible depending on the quality of the USB source (computer) and receiver (DAC), and the presence of galvanic isolation of the USB receiver from the USB source and possible ground loops..

[Lebouwsky]

54 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Source determines the max fidelity you can get... you can get musical results from a great source with a mediocre system but you can't make the reverse work. Saying just "a computer" sure sounds like the problem was source.

That was exactly my idea too Davide, but it's a guess.

 

The way he placed his speakers would'nt be the way I'd do it too. Some experts say the speakers have to be roughly at 1/3 of the rooms length and the listening position at 2/3. That was the way the salesman positioned the focus 260, what might explain the flubby bass.

 

Although I do not have the (living) room to position them 1/3 2/3 I did listen to my focus 160 at another audiostore, auditioning a sugden Class A amp in a 1/3 2/3 configuration. Besides the fact that I was far from impressed by the sugden, things did improve when the speakers were positioned roughly 50cm from the rear wall. 

 

Don't know about you guys, but sitting at 2/3 of the rooms length also gives me an unrelaxed feeling, like some one stands behind you. Maybe it's just me.

[esldude]

The described sound was not from USB issues.  I'll state that right now.  Some people imagine so much from USB it is really fascinating as a psychological phenomena.

[Abtr]

9 minutes ago, esldude said:

The described sound was not from USB issues.  I'll state that right now.  Some people imagine so much from USB it is really fascinating as a psychological phenomena.

 

Are you saying that such USB issues do not exist?

[esldude]

8 minutes ago, Abtr said:

 

Are you saying that such USB issues do not exist?

In regards to being able to cause the described sound in the Op, yes I am saying they don't exist at that level. 

[Abtr]

15 minutes ago, esldude said:

In regards to being able to cause the described sound in the Op, yes I am saying they don't exist at that level. 

 

Hm. A revealing system may still sound quite horrible as a result of electrical USB problems, IMO..

[Lebouwsky]

Personally I believe the true heart of the system is the amplifier. From the moment I found the one I really liked, things started to fall into place. Even when connecting my 600 euro costing b&w 685  to my system, which is a great speaker for the money by the way, the sound still is very good. The sms200 was a game changer too. But then again, everything matters. I'm quite sceptical towards high end cables though.

[plissken]

11 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

Last weekend my kind neighbor and I went shopping for a Dynaudio focus 260 in the second hand market. It was offered privately for a decent price, so up we went. A kind man showed us the way, offered us something to drink and showed us the babies I got my sight on. Optically it was 9/10. The rest of his chain contained some Naim components, a Chord Hugo dac and a computer. The focus 260 were to be replaced by much more expansive PMC fact8 or 12, which gave him “a real good upgrade from an already great sounding system”. The investment he did in this system was quite big, even for audiopfile standards. Boy were we excited.

 

 

He asked us what kind of music we preferred. From the moment he pushed the play button a dreadful sound was fired at us. Just dreadful. It was harsh, fluffy bottom, instruments blurred and it sounded…..wrong. Technically there was nothing wrong, all was there, but just…wrong. My neighbor and I looked at each other for a brief moment and both knew what the other was thinking. O my god! How could this kind man not hear it. I mean, this was not a matter of personal preferences. We’re not talking about up front vs laid back or any of that kind. And no, my neighbor and I don’t like the same cup of tea. He likes energetic, I like organic, he’s a B&W fan, I’m a Dynaudio guy, his system is for movies and some music, my system is for music and some movies.

 

 

Any audiophile with some listening experience and some good ears would have kindly thanked the man and started running to the car. Yet I bought the focus 260, and here’s why: I own the Dynaudio Focus 160 and knew what the 260 was capable of. So I payed the man and we drove home.

 

 

Back at home we immediately connected the focus 260 to my system, which contains  of a server, Sotm sms200, Uptone regen, some lps, Schiit Gungnir and an AMR am77 (which I love). Then I pressed play and we were treated by this wonderful enjoyable sound. Everything the 160 had was there, organic, silky smooth with lots of detail and control. But now with a much wider sound stage, much more controlled and deeper bottom and an improved mid. We smiled at each other, this is what we’d hoped to hear.

 

 

So here goes the cliché of the month: system matching, system matching, system matching.

 

Have a great day.

 

Yep, totally ignore the room it was in or something was wrong with a component.

[fas42]

Interesting thread - that's generally what I hear with almost any system that I come upon ... it just sounds, "wrong". People get used to the characteristics of almost anything, given time, and no longer "hear what's there".

 

It's not system matching, it's system troubleshooting, as people here are saying - you walk into a sound 'mess', and step by step you sort out where the issues are. It's an iterative process, and if one is motivated sufficiently to take it far enough then you get what I call convincing sound: speakers completely disappear; every recording 'works'; listening from anywhere near the system is always a delight.