plissken Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Interesting if true Anyone else have their orders canceled? Link to comment
wgscott Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 They have some really disturbing avatars on that site. Link to comment
Fitzcaraldo215 Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 16 minutes ago, wgscott said: They have some really disturbing avatars on that site. Yes, but they also have some good information, including honest measurements by Amir. But, it is confirmed that Alex is trying to keep the ISO Regen out of Amir's hands for measurement purposes: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23015-Who-s-buying-the-UpTone-Audio-ISO-REGEN&p=453954&viewfull=1#post453954 I think it is clear that Alex and Swenson do not want measurements, period. Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted June 2, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2017 26 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said: I think it is clear that Alex and Swenson do not want measurements, period. Hogwash Fitz. This has zero to do with measurements (some of which I already posted). I explained to Amir why I want nothing to do with him, his agenda, his nastiness, or his money. (for those who want to know, my reply is here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23015-Who-s-buying-the-UpTone-Audio-ISO-REGEN&p=453954&viewfull=1#post453954) I don't care if he gets a ISO REGEN from someone else. It just won't be from me. By the way, I don't hear any drumbeats for measurements of products and devices from all sorts of other firms, either at WBF or at that ASR graveyard Amir presides over with his sycophants. Doak, motberg, cpvniii and 7 others 10 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
james45974 Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 48 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said: Yes, but they also have some good information, including honest measurements by Amir. But, it is confirmed that Alex is trying to keep the ISO Regen out of Amir's hands for measurement purposes: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23015-Who-s-buying-the-UpTone-Audio-ISO-REGEN&p=453954&viewfull=1#post453954 I think it is clear that Alex and Swenson do not want measurements, period. Having run accross Amir's postings on various sites, could it be that he is simply a clueless dick? Full dislosure: i don't own any uptone audio products, currently streaming from a Raspberry Pi mrvco 1 Jim Link to comment
Keith_W Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Alex, I have faith that you and John Swenson know what you are doing. If you feel that Amir's methodology is flawed and would result in flawed measurements, why not post your own? Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 27 minutes ago, Keith_W said: Alex, I have faith that you and John Swenson know what you are doing. If you feel that Amir's methodology is flawed and would result in flawed measurements, why not post your own? I did. But measurements are not going to tell you much about the SQ improvement the ISO REGEN makes. And to do them in a meaningful way (not Aimr's silly "let's look at noise at the output of the DAC") takes a lot of time (and an advanced phase noise test device). John is in the middle of his house move, and I am working 70+ hours a week to keep up production, logistics, and customer service on all products. Plus any "spare" time John or I might have is going into new product design. Are all the other audio companies spending their days trying to satisfy graph-loving skeptics with measurements? No. Yet again, this is NOT about measurements! If Hans Beekhuyzen asks for a sample of the ISO REGEN to measure I will gladly give him one. Same for John Atkinson, or some of the English and German reviewers who like to measure. No, as I said before, this is strictly about Amir. This is personal. I don't want his money, I don't seek his approval, I don't want anything to do with him. I don't know any way to make myself more clear. I am doing this on principle and out of self-respect. MikeyFresh, MrMoM, mourip and 19 others 22 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Popular Post Sal1950 Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 19 minutes ago, Superdad said: I did. But measurements are not going to tell you much about the SQ improvement the ISO REGEN makes Are you really so scared that some bit of poor engineering will be revealed by Amir's measurements that you have to refuse a sale? LOL. Is your faith in the ISO so weak that you have attempt to hide it? Or do you just insist on a belief in your magic dust? Although Amir would never let any personal animosity to bias his results, I'd think you'd want a reviewer to look into things without throwing him personal insults before hand. A very sad and lame approach from a supposed engineer Alex hvbias and sarvsa 2 "The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?" Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 6 minutes ago, Sal1950 said: Are you really so scared that some bit of poor engineering will be revealed by Amir's measurements that you have to refuse a sale? LOL. Is your faith in the ISO so weak that you have attempt to hide it? Or do you just insist on a belief in your magic dust? Although Amir would never let any personal animosity to bias his results, I'd think you'd want a reviewer to look into things without throwing him personal insults before hand. A very sad and lame approach from a supposed engineer Alex I think it is pretty clear that: a) Amir has an agenda which colors his work; b) isn't actually competent to do the measurements properly. He also did let his biases influence what he wrote in his original evaluation of the Regen. As Alex has said he would be fine giving one to other reviewers who do measurements, your post seems to have no basis. jhwalker, Speed Racer, Duke40 and 4 others 7 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post Sal1950 Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, firedog said: I think it is pretty clear that: a) Amir has an agenda which colors his work; b) isn't actually competent to do the measurements properly. He also did let his biases influence what he wrote in his original evaluation of the Regen. Hogwash hvbias and sarvsa 2 "The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?" Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 What is the return policy for the ISO REGEN? Link to comment
Popular Post plissken Posted June 3, 2017 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 38 minutes ago, firedog said: I think it is pretty clear that: a) Amir has an agenda which colors his work; b) isn't actually competent to do the measurements properly. He also did let his biases influence what he wrote in his original evaluation of the Regen. As Alex has said he would be fine giving one to other reviewers who do measurements, your post seems to have no basis. Amir is an EE. He's also the VP that was in charge of replacing kmixer in XP with WASAPI in Vista/7. He's wrote a few college texts on the Unix Operating System also. Here's another thing: Unless Uptone has purchased any new analysis gear, Amir is also better situated to actually bench these devices and post the measured output. This is something the manufacturer should be doing. He's been benching DAC's (iFi, Behringer, Schitt) and honest to god: If you have a problem with his measurements, go get a PHd. in EE, drop $20-25,000 on an Audio Precision analyzer and prove him wrong. esldude, hvbias, sarvsa and 2 others 5 Link to comment
Popular Post plissken Posted June 3, 2017 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Superdad said: By the way, I don't hear any drumbeats for measurements of products and devices from all sorts of other firms, either at WBF or at that ASR graveyard Amir presides over with his sycophants. He's been benching DAC's left and right... You got anytime for a blind eval of the Regen? hvbias, sarvsa and esldude 3 Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Keith_W said: Alex, I have faith that you and John Swenson know what you are doing. If you feel that Amir's methodology is flawed and would result in flawed measurements, why not post your own? Fully agree. Alex @Superdad, you have to believe in measurements if you are doing engineering work. If you don't, then I have no interest in your product. Publish your own measurements so that you can prove Amir wrong. I understand you're busy and have had little sleep. But please do it soon, because I am curious about your device and would like to purchase it if measurements bear out what is claimed by John Swenson: reduction in jitter at the DAC. esldude, plissken and sarvsa 3 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
plissken Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Ralf11 said: What is the return policy for the ISO REGEN? Far as I know it's what ever Alex says it is. There is nothing on the website about it that I've found. Link to comment
STC Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Pick your poison; poor measurements that alter the sound or accuracy. Flavor vs accuracy. Amir's measurements would reveal this. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Speed Racer Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, STC said: Pick your poison; poor measurements that alters the sound or accuracy. Flavor vs accuracy. Amir's measurements would reveal this. Would they? Do you even know if he is measuring what is important? Does he? Read this thread through: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23015-Who-s-buying-the-UpTone-Audio-ISO-REGEN Albrecht 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Speed Racer Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Sal1950 said: Are you really so scared that some bit of poor engineering will be revealed by Amir's measurements that you have to refuse a sale? LOL. Is your faith in the ISO so weak that you have attempt to hide it? Or do you just insist on a belief in your magic dust? Although Amir would never let any personal animosity to bias his results, I'd think you'd want a reviewer to look into things without throwing him personal insults before hand. A very sad and lame approach from a supposed engineer Alex Afraid? Lack of faith? Don't be such a jerk..... Alex just doesn't want to deal with the person and his apparent agenda. Elberoth, Keith_W, MikeyFresh and 1 other 4 Link to comment
STC Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 15 minutes ago, Speed Racer said: Do you even know if he is measuring what is important? Does he? What should he measure? ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
rando Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 3 hours ago, firedog said: I think it is pretty clear that: a) Amir has an agenda which colors his work; b) isn't actually competent to do the measurements properly. Reference of image meaning. Link to comment
Speed Racer Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 13 minutes ago, STC said: What should he measure? Nice dodge......I don't know and I bet you don't know. Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 2 hours ago, plissken said: Amir is an EE. He's also the VP that was in charge of replacing kmixer in XP with WASAPI in Vista/7. He's wrote a few college texts on the Unix Operating System also. Here's another thing: Unless Uptone has purchased any new analysis gear, Amir is also better situated to actually bench these devices and post the measured output. This is something the manufacturer should be doing. He's been benching DAC's (iFi, Behringer, Schitt) and honest to god: If you have a problem with his measurements, go get a PHd. in EE, drop $20-25,000 on an Audio Precision analyzer and prove him wrong. I think the people from iFi explained quite well about how difficult it is to do proper measurements and how Amir's method doesn't meet the bill. Doesn't have anything to do with having a degree, and having the Analyzer doesn't mean you know how to use it properly. I'm sure you will disagree We will agree to disagree. Teresa, MikeyFresh and Elberoth 3 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 47 minutes ago, STC said: What should he measure? Again this is not about measurements. I am under zero obligation to sell our products to hostile people who seek only to defame us. But as far as the most important and direct measure of a USB signal regenerating, an eye-pattern contains and reveals the all most important information: amplitude, jitter, noise, edge rates, timing error, etc.--those are the components of what is known as Signal Integrity. Here is a short article about them: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4389368/Eye-Diagram-Basics-Reading-and-applying-eye-diagrams Differences between USB cables are also revealed using with eye-pattern sweeps. Here is the before and after with the ISO REGEN: BEFORE: AFTER: As to the degree to which various DACs and their USB input are affected by variations in SI--and why that can have an effect on the DAC's overall ground plane and master clock--John has written extensively about that, and other (both DAC and external device) manufacturers have worked on the issue to improve their products. Just because the lay person does not grasp or acknowledge certain deeper engineering issues doe not mean they don't matter or exist. If others wish do not wish to accept plainly heard differences until they see someone produce some measurement that means something to them at the output of their DAC, that is fine. But staring at a few spikes on a jitter plot is not going to tell you if the music is going to sound more real or not. So sad to see such a subset of the audiophile populous is still stuck in the rut of not using there own, evolution-tuned test gear affixed to their heads. They are not hard to use and the process can be quite pleasant. Keith_W, MikeyFresh, bunno77 and 5 others 8 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 16 minutes ago, firedog said: I think the people from iFi explained quite well about how difficult it is to do proper measurements and how Amir's method doesn't meet the bill. Doesn't have anything to do with having a degree, and having the Analyzer doesn't mean you know how to use it properly. I'm sure you will disagree We will agree to disagree. Is it worth noting he can get clean measurements from some other gear? Is it worth noting some other people have gotten similar measurements? Is it all a conspiracy? sarvsa and Fitzcaraldo215 2 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 Just now, Superdad said: Again this is not about measurements. I am under zero obligation to sell our products to hostile people who seek only to defame us. But as far as the most important and direct measure of a USB signal regenerating, an eye-pattern contains and reveals the all most important information: amplitude, jitter, noise, edge rates, timing error, etc.--those are the components of what is known as Signal Integrity. Here is a short article about them: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4389368/Eye-Diagram-Basics-Reading-and-applying-eye-diagrams Differences between USB cables are also revealed using with eye-pattern sweeps. Here is the before and after with the ISO REGEN: BEFORE: AFTER: As to the degree to which various DACs and their USB input are affected by variations in SI--and why that can have an effect on the DAC's overall ground plane and master clock--John has written extensively about that, and other (both DAC and external device) manufacturers have worked on the issue to improve their products. Just because the lay person does not grasp or acknowledge certain deeper engineering issues doe not mean they don't matter or exist. If others wish do not wish to accept plainly heard differences until they see someone produce some measurement that means something to them at the output of their DAC, that is fine. But staring at a few spikes on a jitter plot is not going to tell you if the music is going to sound more real or not. So sad to see such a subset of the audiophile populous is still stuck in the rut of not using there own, evolution-tuned test gear affixed to their heads. They are not hard to use and the process can be quite pleasant. Sorry, you can't listen to that signal. People can only listen to the analog output of a DAC. Do you have any measurements that show any improvement in the analog output of a DAC with the Regen vs without? f1eng, mansr, tmtomh and 3 others 6 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
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