Jump to content
IGNORED

Hattor Audio Class D (Hypex)


Recommended Posts

sug30.jpg

 

This is the Technics SU-G30, a network all-in-one which retails for $4k. It’s a class D that supports direct digital style decoding of DSD 256 and also MQA. I saw it online used for $2k, and I couldn’t help myself — I had to pick it up.

 

But wait, doesn’t class D suck? Yes, but the SU-G30 is unique in that it’s one of the two amps (that I know of) that use Galium Nitride MOSFETs (GaN FET) and the only one which is remotely affordable. What’s special about GaN FET is that it allows the class D amplification stage to switch at 3 times rate of current MOSFETs, which is still to low but is still much closer to the ideal to eliminate the destructive effects of the steep class D output filter. By providing a lot more bandwidth, GaN FET allows for a gentler filter.

 

I had the chance to listen to the SU-G30 at Capital Audiofest for some time. Sadly the room was bad and those little Technics speakers weren’t that good. I was unsatisfied by the demo, and I’ve meaning to setup a realistic demo somewhere with a Grand Class dealer (Technic’s high end line), but with it appearing used for half off I figured I could flip it if it turned out to suck. The promise is that if it’s good enough it can eliminate a lot of gear in my system. And it’s got MQA. 

 

Stay tuned for a GUTB review of a class D that might not suck.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, GUTB said:

sug30.jpg

 

This is the Technics SU-G30, a network all-in-one which retails for $4k. It’s a class D that supports direct digital style decoding of DSD 256 and also MQA. I saw it online used for $2k, and I couldn’t help myself — I had to pick it up.

 

But wait, doesn’t class D suck? Yes, but the SU-G30 is unique in that it’s one of the two amps (that I know of) that use Galium Nitride MOSFETs (GaN FET) and the only one which is remotely affordable. What’s special about GaN FET is that it allows the class D amplification stage to switch at 3 times rate of current MOSFETs, which is still to low but is still much closer to the ideal to eliminate the destructive effects of the steep class D output filter. By providing a lot more bandwidth, GaN FET allows for a gentler filter.

 

I had the chance to listen to the SU-G30 at Capital Audiofest for some time. Sadly the room was bad and those little Technics speakers weren’t that good. I was unsatisfied by the demo, and I’ve meaning to setup a realistic demo somewhere with a Grand Class dealer (Technic’s high end line), but with it appearing used for half off I figured I could flip it if it turned out to suck. The promise is that if it’s good enough it can eliminate a lot of gear in my system. And it’s got MQA. 

 

Stay tuned for a GUTB review of a class D that might not suck.

Two predictions:

you will say it doesn't suck, or sucks a lot less than any class D you know of.

If you didn't know what chip it had in it, you would say it sucks. 

 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...
On 27/02/2018 at 12:40 AM, divebaum said:

Yep, I looked at Apollon, too. They look very nice. Enjoy!


My plan is to let Bruno's tech do its thing, taking full advantage of the control and noise floor that even GUTB can't deny :) and then add flavor via a tube-based Freya balanced preamp. Tubes + tons of SS power always seemed like a good way to drive my Dyns. 

 

 

 

Indeed Tibor, Apollon's boss, is a very nice person to talk to. He must be a very patient person since we exchanged tons of very long emails, with me always asking for additional tweaks at the last minute, and he still appear to bear with me :)  He has the training of a recording and mastering engineer and therefore knows - at a professional level - what to listen to, and at the same time he also loves to listen to music outside his job, which is an important factor in going beyond the pure analytical aspect of music reproduction.  I hope that in one of my next trip to relatives in northern Italy I will be able to make a stop near the Austria-Slovenia border and meet this bloke in person.

I got from Apollon Audio the NC500SLM monoblocks, with the custom input buffer with Sparkos regulators and Sonic Imagery 994 discrete opamps, and Neotech silver wiring for the signal input.

 

The case is a Modu - so it is solid and nice looking. There are better cases around (Hattor has fancy ones which I really dig a lot, the Takachi are a bit cleaner and sleeker,  however I doubt they have an impact on sound) but they do look elegant and the internal build is exemplary - everything is mounted on an internal perforated steel plate, so the bottom of the amp is smooth, and there is additional shielding (1 extra mm of steel works better than several mm of aluminium) and good thermal dissipation. The internal layout is very good as well (note that Hypex based monoblocks from other manufacturers orientate the power supply in the wrong way, but Apollon gets it right).

 

The input buffer follows the same design by Richard of SI and that other people have tried to claim as their own idea (including a famous  case manufacturer banned from nearly every forum on the planet). Furthermore, wrt to other implementation, the distance between the regulators and the discrete opamp are slightly larger - they can still drive them very well, but there will be less transferred heat and also less interference (the Sparkos opamps are known to be a bit sensitive to this). The result is completely silent amplification: I can barely hear some little noise by practically gluing my ear to the tweeter, one inch further away and I hear nothing.  Out of this totally black background the music emerges effortlessly, very clean, with excellent timing, tons of details (at the level of an excellent head amp)  with a large (but not exaggerated) soundstage.   Mind you, the monoblocks are not properly burned in yet - I have had them for only 5 days, and in 10 days they should have "matured" properly - I guess the main reason is that SMPSs and Class D amps (which are almost the same thing) use smaller capacitor banks than other types of design topologies and thus the lengthy capacitor forming process is much more audible.

 

Also, the monoblocks are VERY sensitive to the quality of the mains cable. I only have two types, admittedly ok-ish ones: Lapp Ölflex CY110, and Eupen LP/GNLM (both 3G2.5) and with the Ölflex the sound is a bit more dynamic but also slightly fatiguing, whereas with the Eupen it is a tad more "behaved" and not fatiguing at all.  I haven't tries other cables but I am satisfied with both cables and it takes to swap both, for instance in case one recording is a bit harsh of itself and the Eupen smooths it a bit.

 

If anybody wants to try some inexpensive Abrahamsen pre/power amp combo, feel free to contact me :)

 

 Roberto

 

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

Hey prof. Scott - Time to cool it. Your posts are being reported and I’m being accused of favoritism because I didn’t act upon this within 30 seconds of it being reported. 

 

To the person who reported this and thinks there are two sets of rules, you’re incorrect. Running CA and Superphonica takes a considerable amount of time. I can’t act on your reported posts immediately. And, contrary to your belief, I’m smart enough to understand how sucking up works. Prof. Scott isn’t a suck up in order to post what he wants. 

 

In addition, I give more leeway to those who’ve been around CA for several years and have contributed a great deal. By leeway I mean I don’t ban them with a hair trigger. I try to issue warnings and contact them offline if needed. Everyone has moments that don’t represent them as a whole. 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

Link to comment
1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hey prof. Scott - Time to cool it. Your posts are being reported and I’m being accused of favoritism because I didn’t act upon this within 30 seconds of it being reported. 

 

Sorry, I only just saw this now.

 

In case anyone misunderstood, I was trying to make fun of all the useless and divisive threads like "Class D sucks" and the snobbish dismissal of all Class D amps and anything (like integrated systems) that don't cost a fortune, while at the same time suggesting that anyone who disagrees is autistic or has pervasive developmental disorder.  These are serious handicaps, and anyone who has any familiarity with them I would think would think twice about deploying them as insults.

 

I sincerely apologize for creating any impression otherwise. 

Link to comment
On 3/20/2018 at 8:29 PM, wgscott said:

 

Sorry, I only just saw this now.

 

In case anyone misunderstood, I was trying to make fun of all the useless and divisive threads like "Class D sucks" and the snobbish dismissal of all Class D amps and anything (like integrated systems) that don't cost a fortune, while at the same time suggesting that anyone who disagrees is autistic or has pervasive developmental disorder.  These are serious handicaps, and anyone who has any familiarity with them I would think would think twice about deploying them as insults.

 

I sincerely apologize for creating any impression otherwise. 

 

I thought it was pretty obvious you were just taking a dig at me. But then I supposed you'd only know that if you grasped the context.

 

BTW, just so that all my fans know I haven't once complained about anything anyone has ever posted.

Link to comment
On 3/12/2018 at 8:00 AM, mocenigo said:

 

Lapp Ölflex CY110, and Eupen LP/GNLM (both 3G2.5) and with the Ölflex the sound is a bit more dynamic but also slightly fatiguing, whereas with the Eupen it is a tad more "behaved" and not fatiguing at all.  I haven't tries other cables but I am satisfied with both cables and it takes to swap both, for instance in case one recording is a bit harsh of itself and the Eupen smooths it a bit.

 

 Roberto

 

  I use a couple Eupen power cords. Very happy with them. 

  There is a filter built into the wall plug. Will try on a digital amp next time I have one in the system. 

  Usually use a larger gauge power cable with digital amps. 

 

2012 Mac Mini, i5 - 2.5 GHz, 16 GB RAM. SSD,  PM/PV software, Focusrite Clarett 4Pre 4 channel interface. Daysequerra M4.0X Broadcast monitor., My_Ref Evolution rev a , Klipsch La Scala II, Blue Sky Sub 12

Clarett used as ADC for vinyl rips.

Corning Optical Thunderbolt cable used to connect computer to 4Pre. Dac fed by iFi iPower and Noise Trapper isolation transformer. 

Link to comment
  • 3 weeks later...
On 23/03/2018 at 11:26 AM, Panelhead said:

  I use a couple Eupen power cords. Very happy with them. 

  There is a filter built into the wall plug. Will try on a digital amp next time I have one in the system. 

  Usually use a larger gauge power cable with digital amps. 

 

For they Apollon Audio hypex amps I found the ideal balance with Supra LoRad. Very dynamic (like the Ölflex) but also very clean and not fatiguing at all (like the EUPEN).

Link to comment
  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/13/2018 at 3:55 AM, mocenigo said:

 

For they Apollon Audio hypex amps I found the ideal balance with Supra LoRad. Very dynamic (like the Ölflex) but also very clean and not fatiguing at all (like the EUPEN).

 

Do you suggest using any power cord or main conditioner to enhance the sound quality ?

Thanks.

 

 

Link to comment
  • 5 weeks later...
On 4/30/2018 at 4:56 PM, ChoUSTER said:

 

Do you suggest using any power cord or main conditioner to enhance the sound quality ?

 

In these things YMMV. I would not use a power conditioner, as with all power amps, but this is just hand waving. I just use a nice box with star connections, decent outlets, a DC blocker and a high amperage Schaffner filter inside, so the filtering is can hardly affect power amps.

Changing the cord made significant differences in my setup. I would use low inductance, mildly filtering, but shielding power chords over lengths over 2 m (if it is too long, roll it). Supra LoRad and EUPEN made a noticeable difference even over the excellent industrial Ölflex, with the Supra being more dynamic. It also depends on your taste in audio: for some the difference will be significant, for others it will be in the yeah-but-I-can-live-without category, for others inaudible if they do not know what to listen to (and I consider them lucky).

Cables like LoRad and EUPEN may indeed serve more to avoid additional SMPS noise to affect the other audio electronics. The Hypex SMPS are very good with a double LC output filter - there is hardly any noise affecting the amplifier module itself. But they do not really avoid noise spewed back to the grid from them.


So I put the EUPEN cables to the DAC and to my passive preamp (it is passive, but it has electrically operated switches, and what gets inside the box is inside the box). That cleaned up the sound significantly.
 

Again, YMMV and these are all relatively inexpensive power cords if you buy them by the meter and terminate them yourselves. The EUPEN is just a normal industrial cable and the Supra sells for the same price, so they are not ripoffs.

 

 Roberto

 

Link to comment

One of the marketing promises of Class D is immunity to AC power quality. When I lived in an apartment, the AC quality was so bad, I could hear noise in my listening seat coming through my various solid-state and tube gear (this is before I owned any Class D amps). So I tried various techniques to fix the problem and finally got fed up and bought a Furman P-2400 IT Power Conditioner. It was expensive and considered a hifi no-no because transformer isolation based power conditioners can limit dynamic swings in really power hungry amplifiers. I found that the Furman not only fixed the noise problem but, the dynamics (especially on my tube amps) got better because hum and other noise was eliminated. With my Class D amps plugged into the Furman, they sound also improved, but ESPECIALLY the dynamics. I have yet to experiment with the AC cords, I may go with DIY solution as that’s something I think I can accomplish.

 

Link to comment
55 minutes ago, Supperconductor said:

One of the marketing promises of Class D is immunity to AC power quality. When I lived in an apartment, the AC quality was so bad, I could hear noise in my listening seat coming through my various solid-state and tube gear (this is before I owned any Class D amps). So I tried various techniques to fix the problem and finally got fed up and bought a Furman P-2400 IT Power Conditioner. It was expensive and considered a hifi no-no because transformer isolation based power conditioners can limit dynamic swings in really power hungry amplifiers. I found that the Furman not only fixed the noise problem but, the dynamics (especially on my tube amps) got better because hum and other noise was eliminated. With my Class D amps plugged into the Furman, they sound also improved, but ESPECIALLY the dynamics. I have yet to experiment with the AC cords, I may go with DIY solution as that’s something I think I can accomplish.

 

 

Good information. Furmans are all over the audio shows along with PS Audio Powerplants — dealers like to hide them but if you look you’ll find them. With my own experience with class D I didn’t find any difference with AC cables. Since switching PSUs are inherently regulated I figures AC delivery wouldn’t make much of a difference...but maybe the Furman eliminates the switching noise from class D from getting back into the amp. Or something else.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Good information. Furmans are all over the audio shows along with PS Audio Powerplants — dealers like to hide them but if you look you’ll find them. With my own experience with class D I didn’t find any difference with AC cables. Since switching PSUs are inherently regulated I figures AC delivery wouldn’t make much of a difference...but maybe the Furman eliminates the switching noise from class D from getting back into the amp. Or something else.

Quite possibly so. Also the Emerald Physics 100.2 (that I use 2X as monoblocks), I believe have a linear power supply. That might also have an impact. Where I live now has very modern wiring, but the Furman definitely helps. When used in a really electrically noisy environment, it can provide a drastic improvement.

Link to comment
17 hours ago, Supperconductor said:

One of the marketing promises of Class D is immunity to AC power quality.

 

This is interesting. When was it? I do not recall reading it about recent Icepower and Hypex stuff (maybe my brain autodedeted it since any claim of this kind is usually mumbo-jumbo). If any class D manufacturer DID market their products as immune to AC power quality they were of course wrong, or the first modules were so bad that AC power quality did not make any difference ?

 

Quote

 

When I lived in an apartment, the AC quality was so bad, I could hear noise in my listening seat coming through my various solid-state and tube gear (this is before I owned any Class D amps).

 

 

At the moment I live in a condo which is almost above a miniature hydro power plant. This is not a joke! AC itself is stable and ok, it does not come from that toy plant, the owner sells his electricity to the town, maybe some depending on the load is diverted automatically to the local sub-grid, but anything that has electronics here hums and buzzes. You hear the noise through everything if you are careful. So I have to take some care about power cords and some filtering.

 

This is to say that I fully understand you!

 

Quote

So I tried various techniques to fix the problem and finally got fed up and bought a Furman P-2400 IT Power Conditioner. It was expensive and considered a hifi no-no because transformer isolation based power conditioners can limit dynamic swings in really power hungry amplifiers.

 

Who said this to you? If the transformers are large enough, they do not limit power swings, and these are less critical with Class D anyway since they are much more power efficient.  Esp the balanced ones are known to be very good for sound.

 

Quote

I found that the Furman not only fixed the noise problem but, the dynamics (especially on my tube amps) got better because hum and other noise was eliminated. With my Class D amps plugged into the Furman, they sound also improved, but ESPECIALLY the dynamics. I have yet to experiment with the AC cords, I may go with DIY solution as that’s something I think I can accomplish.

 

Since the Class D are particularly efficient, any noise on the AC is actually relatively "more magnified" than in traditional amplifier topologies. Luckily their SMPS are, in modern designs, usually soft switching LLC topologies and they are almost noiseless in the output. But bad food results in bad you-know-what.

 

There is nothing wrong in terminating your cables yourself. I am agnostic regarding exotic power plugs (just make sure that if you buy Chinese oyade copies you use Deoxit D5 on all contacts and prongs) but the cables themselves can make a difference, mostly by avoiding to pick up ADDITIONAL noise, and some of them filter away also what is spit back from the PSU, that can reach other components (so make sure you have some semiconducting foil, like aluminum-polyester composites, or ferrite around the individual conductors - they convert the energy above a certain frequency into a tiny amount of heat).

 

Link to comment
On 2/25/2018 at 11:04 PM, GUTB said:

 

Your amps sound dry, over-damped (depending on speakers) with collapsed soundstage. I can judge your amps without having heard them because that’s what class D sounds like.

 

My god. Someone must have hidden some Class AB amps somewhere inside my Class D monoblocks WHERE I CANNOT SEE OR FIND THEM!!!!! What a magnificent present. Thank you, Apollon!

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...