Best 2.1 Sound System for Under $400

[Nobear]

Hi everyone,

 

This is my first post here. I hope computeraudiophile.com are the best forums for my questions. If not, please recommend forum(s) where I should go.

 

Background: I've been using a Monsoon MM-700 (originally $150, no longer sold) flat panel 2.1 system for years. I let my sister borrow it and someone probably tripped on the cable, because the 3.5mm jack on the subwoofer got bent, and now I experience unacceptable distortion no matter how I adjust the cable. If I buy a new system, my total budget is $400, which includes any DACs, filters, cables, etc. that would optimize my listening experience for my budget. I have some ideas, but I'd like to ask openly first, before biasing with specific products I'm considering. There are a few questions that would help me make a decision:

 

1) Do you think it's worth it to try to fix the jack on my current system, or pay to get it fixed, or am I better off just buying a new system?

 

2) If I buy a quality 2.1 3.5mm system for my budget, how big a difference will an external DAC make, versus connecting it straight to a mid-2014 MacBook Pro?

 

3) How big a difference will a USB filter make at this level?

 

4) How big a difference will quality cables make at this level?

 

5) How likely am I to be able to tell the difference between CD-quality and higher resolution audio at this level (again, sub-$400 total)?

 

6) What is the best combination of gear for me, and for my budget?

 

If it helps, here is my background in music: I have good relative pitch, I played the violin for 4 years, and I've sung in high school and community college choirs, as well as a semiprofessional group of 4-8 singers specializing in Renaissance madrigals. Years ago, I tested my perception of MP3 compression quality in iTunes. With the Monsoon MM-700 plugged straight into a Mac, I detected a difference up to 160 kbps, but honestly not higher. I don't know if I was limited by my setup.

 

As far as tastes, I listen to many genres, from classical to trance. I appreciate quality, but I also like to feel the bass. A pipe organ can go down to 16 Hz, which is lower than the listed response of any sound system I'm aware of in my budget. That said, I am interested in ability to reproduce frequencies down to 16 Hz, even if the response curve falls off and I only hear/feel a portion of the impact of the lowest pipes on a pipe organ.

 

Thank you in advance!

[Ralf11]

zero for 4 & 5

 

I'd go used.  Does the $400 include speakers?

[Nobear]

The $400 includes everything, including speakers, and it's definitely a high end for my budget. I know these forums are more for higher end audio, but I figure I'd ask people who appreciate quality more than most do in my budget range.

 

Keep in mind I'm coming from a $150 2.1 system, but I'd be willing to pay maybe double that (total) if it's going to significantly increase my listening experience. Any specific recommendations for a 2.1 system + whatever accessories you think will be worth it at that level?

[Ralf11]

Sure.  I don't know much about those systems, but you might look at Bose.

 

Or go to Crutchfield's web site and see what they have - it will be cheaper elsewhere but they have good support.

 

Used might get you some nice old bookshelf HiFi speakers and then a used but recent receiver with a builtin DAC that can tie into various transmission methods from the Macbook pro, which has Toslink hidden in the headphone jack.

 

I use a $40 used Apple TV3 to capture Apple AirPlay off WiFi from a mac mini.  That would fit your budget.

[Ralf11]

BTW, big zero for 1b also

[Nobear]

Thank you for your input. As much as I value quality for the price, I also don't think I can do without a subwoofer, because I like to feel the bass.

 

Now that you've given some recommendations, I will tell you what I've been considering. I'm looking at the Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 (the original non-Bluetooth version gets better ratings, but I don't know if the BT version's quality over 3.5mm is inferior, or if the complaints are just about the Bluetooth implementation). If I go with either ProMedia 2.1 system, would an inexpensive DAC like the DragonFly Black make a noticeable difference? A USB filter?

 

As for Bose, there's the Companion 5 for $399, which I'd only be willing to consider if it's going to sound significantly better than, say, a Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 ($150) with or without an AudioQuest DragonFly Black DAC ($100) and possibly an AudioQuest Jitterbug ($50). I chatted with a Crutchfield employee, who was unable to compare the Bose (which they sell) to the Klipsch (which they don't).

 

Now, this Toslink idea is interesting. How would the signal through Toslink into a recent receiver compare to the signal through the DAC and/or USB filter I mentioned, and would it be noticeable at my budget level?

[Ralf11]

Toslink likely will not sound much different for you - I asked this question w/o a budget constraint recently - thread title is Best Digital Interface or some such; you can search it up and read it, but AFAIK it depends on the implementation, not so much the technology type

 

an inexpensive DAC like the DragonFly Black should a noticeable difference - it is well reviewed

 

Dr. Amar Bose was a genius, and his co. uses bioacoustics 'tricks' to make rel. cheap components sound better than you'd expect.

 

Best is if you test the two systems in your home - Crutchfield lets you return things, so you need to search up a similar offer for the Klipsch.

 

Or... just get the Klipsch.

[Nobear]

Thank you. Gah, I just found out about the Logitech z625, for $169 with optical input. It gets better reviews in general than the Klipsch, but one audiophile said he preferred the Klipsch, and the Logitech might just get better reviews because it's more powerful (probably way more than I need for my bedroom anyway). Would you bet on the Klipsch running through a DragonFly Black sounding better than the Logitech z625 connected directly by optical? Obviously you don't have the two to compare. And would you get an AudioQuest Jitterbug or similar USB filter for the Klipsch with DAC, or do you think it won't be so noticeable at that level?

 

At this point, I think I've ruled out the Bose just due to the price difference. Someday, I'll have a bigger budget and can explore high def and all that.

[patagent]

In your situation, I would look at active speakers like the JBL LSR 305's which are $288 per pair on Amazon.  Might be able to find them cheaper elsewhere.  A ton of positive reviews for these.  I would also look at a sub $100 DAC (audio recording interface) like the Behringer UMC204HD ($79 on Amazon).  Run this setup using Audirvana upsampling to 176 or 192 KHz.  Don't worry too much about cables.  If anything you can run balanced cables from the Behringer to the JBL's.

[BayStBroker]

Patagent makes a lot of sense.  I would second the view that used equipment is worth seeking.  There is a definite ecosystem in audio that involves gear swapping and upgrading.  Lots of quality stuff hits the used market.  And most enthusiasts take care of their gear (including speakers).

[patagent]

You can pick up the LSR 305's on eBay for $230 new and the Behringer for $69 new.  Used would be much cheaper.

[esldude]

23 hours ago, patagent said:

In your situation, I would look at active speakers like the JBL LSR 305's which are $288 per pair on Amazon.  Might be able to find them cheaper elsewhere.  A ton of positive reviews for these.  I would also look at a sub $100 DAC (audio recording interface) like the Behringer UMC204HD ($79 on Amazon).  Run this setup using Audirvana upsampling to 176 or 192 KHz.  Don't worry too much about cables.  If anything you can run balanced cables from the Behringer to the JBL's.

 

This is a stellar recommendation here.  The 305s go much lower than you would expect though not quite subwoofer territory.  They sound very good.  Self powered so the amp is built in. The Behringer unit is also a good bit of gear in that price range.  It will actually do much more than you need, but I don't know of a better choice.  Buy your balanced cables from monoprice or GLS and you are set to go for less slightly less than $400.   As a bonus the Behringer will record and has a headphone amp built in to it.

[Nobear]

Thank you for all the replies so far. Here's an update:

 

I bought the Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 for $150 from my more-or-less local Best Buy. I was very careful opening all the packaging, in case I decide to return it and upgrade to a more serious setup. It does sound good to me compared to other similarly priced multimedia systems I've owned. The treble is crisp, and it offers plenty of volume headroom (at 100 watts total continuous) for my bedroom, as I never put it far above 1/2 computer volume and 1/2 speaker volume for personal listening. Ironically, the reviews tend to talk about the kicking bass from the subwoofer, but I don't find the bass overwhelming even at the maximum setting. If anything, I'm almost tempted to adjust the treble down a bit. Apparently, I haven't been to enough loud rock concerts and clubs by age 30 to lose all my hearing at the top end.

 

I remember when I first got the Harman Kardon iSub, a measly 20 watt subwoofer for the iMacs of the time, and the bass from that little guy sounded far more overpowering at its maximum setting. Granted, several factors were different. The iSub was complimenting teeny tiny Harmon Kardon speakers built into the iMac, and I had the iSub in a corner of my room, which had hardwood floors. Now I have a different bedroom with carpet floors, and the subwoofer is near a wall but not a corner. The bass from the Klipsch sub is actually too quiet for my taste on certain recordings, whereas on others it comes through impressively for its size. For example, I have one pipe organ album where I can't hear or feel the low pipes much to speak of, but I have a couple of other recordings where I can hear the pipes all the way down to 16 Hz, albeit at a much diminished amplitude.

 

As much as I appreciate the feedback, it's hard for me to imagine going without a subwoofer. I did look into the JBL LSR305s, and I admit they are tempting. As for the Behringer interface, funny enough, I was going to ask if there was one affordable interface I could get that was as effective as a standalone DAC, but also good for recording. The UMC204HD looks like just the ticket! I have dabbled in composition before, and would like to get back into it, as well as recording. I see that the ProTools ecosystem has changed dramatically in recent years, and I plan to check if I'm eligible for an educational discount for both ProTools and Sibelius.

 

Key question: Does ProTools really play nicely with third party interfaces now, including the Behringer UMC204HD?

 

As I say, I consider the Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 I bought (and can still return) a good value at $150. If, however, I were going to budget for a significantly more expensive setup (if the difference will really be worth it), I would like to add a subwoofer to some LSR 305s. I see a "good condition" LSR310S from Guitar Center for $280. I also see a new Klipsch Sub-12HG on eBay for $220. It looks like the Klipsch goes a little deeper, but do you think it would compliment LSR 305s well, or is there a clear advantage to getting all the speakers in the same brand and product line? Also, would adding a powered sub like the two I mentioned require any additional hardware, or would I be able to hook them all up through the Behringer interface?

 

Thanks for your input, and your patience for my walls of text :P.

[esldude]

I have heard those Promedias unless they are different than those 2 years ago.  The LSR305s are a good step up from those.  Now whether it is something you consider worth the extra money is for you to answer.  You can often hear the 305s at Guitar Center stores.

 

I have an LSR310 and it is a good sub, and the $280 price is a good price.  I think on a budget you loose little at all if you instead used a Dayton Audio Sub-1000 (10 inch $119) or a Dayton Audio Sub 1200 ($135 12 incher).  They have less power than the JBL, but not that much less and are very good for the money.  I know someone with 305s for front speakers in a video setup and a pair of the Sub 1200s.  One would be enough unless you have a very large listening area.

 

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000-10-100-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-628

 

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1200-12-120-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-629

 

The LSR310 would simplify things a bit.  You feed from your preamp/DAC into the 310 which rolls off the low end and passes the signal to the 305s while of course rolling off highs fed to the sub itself. 

 

With the Dayton you will have a built in crossover for the sub, but your JBLs on a separate feed would operate full range.  Which can often work, but isn't optimum.

[Nobear]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the ProMedia 2.1 has remained essentially unchanged since 2002. The newer version just looks different and supports Bluetooth, which I'm not using anyway. BTW, I heard that Bluetooth compresses audio and sounds worse than a 1/8" physical connection. Is that true?

 

The Dayton Audio Sub-1200 looks like a really good value there. I would definitely pay the slightly higher price if it's going to go lower. I wonder how much attenuation there will be at 16 Hz, but if that's audible on a pipe organ with my sub rated down to 35 Hz, hopefully it will be somewhat palpable on the Dayton 1200.

 

I'm a bit confused about the difference in wiring and crossover between the LSR310S and the Daytons. Is there something affordable that would match the crossover between the Dayton and the 305s? And would the Klipsch Sub-12HG have the same issue, and do you think it would be a good match for the 305s?

 

PS: The reason I'm considering the Klipsch Sub-12HG is that it goes the lowest of any of these subs, and it's cheaper than the LSR310S, although the Dayton 1200 does look like possibly the best value if I can affordably handle the crossover issue.

 

PPS: The Matrix Reloaded soundtrack sounds pretty darned impressive on the ProMedia, minus a few deep bass drops. If I could just get those in...

[esldude]

The lowest frequency a room will support well is related to its longest dimension.  You need something like 18 feet to get near 30 hz.  So don't get hung up over one being spec'd a few hz lower.  It is quite likely, when you hear 16 hz organ notes what you are mostly perceiving is the 2nd and 3rd harmonics.  Partly due to few woofers doing a good job with that and partly because only large rooms fully support those frequencies and partly because your ear is very insensitive to frequencies that low.   Your sensitivity is dropping about 20 db per octave.  So 40 hz notes that are reasonably heard need to be 4 times louder and use 10 times more power to be heard as well at 20 hz. 

 

About the bluetooth, yes it is compressed and yes even a 1/8th inch wire will have more quality.

 

In the LSR 310 you send a pair of wires from your DAC to the sub first.  It will fed the sub its signal, and then pass via an output jack to your main speakers.  It will have rolled off the low end for the main speakers in the process.  So all your xover functions are handled by the sub. 

 

With the Klipsch (best I can determine) and definitely with the Dayton, your DAC sends it a signal, it rolls off highs for the sub and that is it.  It has no output.  You need another cable from the DAC feeding the mainspeakers and either something to remove low frequencies or just run them full range.  There are xover units, but none that would fit in your budget.  Unless someone else knows of one and posts it here. You could use these between DAC and main speakers, but these are single ended.  The only balanced ones I know about cost more.  It would be nice to keep things balanced to prevent hum and noise problems.

 

https://www.parts-express.com/harrison-labs-fmod-inline-crossover-pair-100-hz-high-pass-rca--266-274

[esldude]

2 hours ago, Nobear said:

 

 

As for the Behringer interface, funny enough, I was going to ask if there was one affordable interface I could get that was as effective as a standalone DAC, but also good for recording. The UMC204HD looks like just the ticket! I have dabbled in composition before, and would like to get back into it, as well as recording. I see that the ProTools ecosystem has changed dramatically in recent years, and I plan to check if I'm eligible for an educational discount for both ProTools and Sibelius.

 

Key question: Does ProTools really play nicely with third party interfaces now, including the Behringer UMC204HD?

Meant to reply earlier about the recording.  Usually these USB recording interfaces will work with most of the commonly available DAW software.  One of the ads for the UMC204HD says:

 

Compatible with popular recording software including Avid Pro Tools*, Ableton Live*, Steinberg Cubase*, etc.

 

It will come with Traction DAW software.  I have not used it so maybe basic, but for most purposes likely enough.  If not enough Reaper is worth looking into.  You can download and use for free, but should really pay the $40 license if you use it.  An excellent bargain in DAW software.  The fee includes all updates that occur for something like 2 or 3 years at least. 

 

http://www.reaper.fm/

 

ProTools is $25/month or $599 to buy.   So unless you are getting paid it can be pricey. 

[Nobear]

I did not know about room size limiting low frequency perception. Does that imply it's impossible to reproduce the lowest octave of a pipe organ well in a car? What about headphones? Are there any online resources you can recommend for learning more about acoustical properties of rooms? If what you say is true, there's a case to be made for sticking with the ProMedia for now until I get my own house, and make sure at least one of the rooms is really big with good acoustics. Maybe I'll get the UMC204HD next, and plug the ProMedia in with a 1/8" to 1/4" adapter.

 

Thanks for clarifying about the crossover: so any powered sub with outputs will avoid that issue?

 

Also, thanks for the DAW recommendations. As for ProTools and Sibelius, they have heavy educational discounts that I intend to check if I qualify for. I'm going back to college in math, and working as a math tutor at my college, which only pays $11/hr. I know I could make a lot more tutoring privately, but it's convenient and I do it primarily because I love the work. Eventually I'll be an instructor, so I'll have a bigger budget then, but I can handle a combined $16.50/mo for ProTools and Sibelius if I qualify for an educational discount. That said, free is even better, so I'll take a look at your recommendations!

[Nobear]

Actually, I have an audio interface that's been sitting around gathering dust. My sister got me an M-Audio M-Track and an AKG P120 condenser mic a birthday or two ago. I've long struggled with computer game addiction, and I just recently went cold turkey from all computer and cell phone games, which is why it's like I've been living under a rock the past few years. I still haven't opened either box, because I poured all my free time into that crap. So I notice the M-Track I have only supports up to 24-bit/48 kHz recording, but maybe I don't need more. Funny thing, I'm debating now whether I should open the M-Track or try to sell it on eBay and get the Behringer. What do you think?

[STC]

47 minutes ago, esldude said:

 

The lowest frequency a room will support well is related to its longest dimension.  You need something like 18 feet to get near 30 hz

 

 

I have seen this statement repeated many times but I don't think room length or width or height got anything to do with the reproduction of the lowest frequency below its wavelength. 

 

When sound emits from the loudspeaker the cycle of sinewave begins from the loudspeaker. Does it start with zero or maximum amplitude?

 

A earphone would only have about 4 cm length before reaching the eardrum. Surely we are hearing frequencies where the wavelength is much longer than 4 cm with earphones. 

[Nobear]

48 minutes ago, STC said:

 

I have seen this statement repeated many times but I don't think room length or width or height got anything to do with the reproduction of the lowest frequency below its wavelength. 

 

When sound emits from the loudspeaker the cycle of sinewave begins from the loudspeaker. Does it start with zero or maximum amplitude?

 

A earphone would only have about 4 cm length before reaching the eardrum. Surely we are hearing frequencies where the wavelength is much longer than 4 cm with earphones. 

 

That makes a lot of sense to me, and is along the lines of what I was thinking. I saw your ambiophonics system link, so it seems you would know about room acoustics! But other than that, I think esldude has been giving me good information.

[STC]

I too learned a lot from Esldude. I am not sure whether I am right or not but Esldude needs to explain his statement which is quite common among audiophile.   

[Teresa]

2 hours ago, Nobear said:

...What about headphones?...A pipe organ can go down to 16 Hz... 

 

Many headphones go that low or lower. My current Sennheiser headphones go down to 14 Hz.

[Nobear]

14 minutes ago, Teresa said:

 

Many headphones go that low or lower. My current Sennheiser headphones go down to 14 Hz.

 

Right. I was asking about headphones rhetorically, because esldude's statement about room size and frequency didn't seem to make sense in the context of headphones.

 

I gave my Sennheiser HD280s to my sister, who probably made much better use of them than I would have. She's been making music while I was addicted to computer games. But yes, I've heard that full and flat frequency response, and I kind of wish I had them now for multitrack recording. That said, for listening I prefer to also feel the music in my body, and to be able to share that experience when people come into my room.

[esldude]

When I said the longest length is related to the lowest frequency a room will support well, that doesn't mean there is nothing below that frequency.  Only that the room is not adding support at those frequencies.  As most woofers are rolling off at 12db/octave or 24 db/octave often the room will aid it in reaching its lowest response, and below that point the roll-off is too severe. 

 

So let us take a 25 foot room.  That would be a half wave length at roughly 22 hz.  At that frequency the wave will travel the length of the room reflect and come back in phase with the next wave.  This leads to a resonance and response peak.  The response of a woofer fully flat at 22 hz in an anechoic environment will be greatly elevated right around this frequency and multiples of this frequency.  At frequencies in between the sound wave reflected will partly or mostly cancel out leaving dips in the response.   

 

So what happens below 22 hz.  A partial null and then an area where though sound is still put out by the woofer it is much smaller than the average of those peaks.  If you set the level to the point those even lower frequencies are close to proper, then the resonant peaks will be horrible. 

 

Now this is over-simplified itself of course.  For one thing if you are really close to the woofer those lower frequencies are not cancelled out yet.  Same thing with headphones in your ear.  On the other hand lower frequencies leak partly out of most structures.  Some structures are going to partly absorb lower frequencies. 

 

So why my comment above?  Let us say you have a room long enough to support (augment thru resonance) only 50 hz, and you are comparing a sub that goes to 20 hz with one that goes to 30 hz.  Both will excite and energize the room thoroughly at 50 hz.  Both will be partly cancelled out a bit below that.  And both will be putting out energy probably at their respective 30 and 20 hz, but that is in the region partly cancelled pretty well.  So the important level is 50 hz, and below that sound levels are going to be a good bit lower, and you likely could tell no difference in the two responses.  Everything below 50 hz is too far below the level of the rest of the bass range.  If the woofers were flat to some really low number like 5 hz the output would come back up and if the structure of the room were super solid room gain would again bring the level up, but you can't really hear that anyway.  Your perceptual threshold is 20 db higher at 25 hz vs 50 hz and the level from these woofers due to cancellation is likely to be another 10-20 db down in that same range.  So though they are putting out sound, they effectively will disappear for you. 

 

I suppose that is something that happens with cars having boomy huge woofers.  The woofers are putting out enough to pressurize at lower frequencies, but above that point the resonances are huge.  Leading to that awful uncontrolled booming rolling sound.