ISO REGEN Listening Impressions (kicked off with some measurements)

[tboooe]

7 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Tommy,

 

Yes, I should have qualified my closing comment there. I didn't mean to say that there was no degradation at all from sharing vs. separate LPS-1s. Just that the degradation would be greater if powering the mR/IR combo.

No problem at all.  I didnt think you were implying anything.  I just wanted to share my experiences sharing an LPS-1.  It seems there is no free lunch in our whacky audiophile hobby.  I guess I need to start saving my pennies for a second LPS-1.

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, BigAlMc said:

Will moving the MR back to it's own LPS-1 offset the possible drop in asking the SU-1 & IR to 'play nice' and share an LPS-1.....  Too confusing....

 

Trust thy ears!

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

By powering the mR and ISO-R with the same LPS-1, you're effectively providing a common ground path around the isolation moat designed into the product. This is like turning the GI switch to off. Now, the audible degradation due to this is system-dependent. For some it may be minimal, for others, dramatic.

 

Interestingly, using a single LPS-1 to power both the ISO-R and something downstream (assuming the aforementioned constraints are met) should be just fine.

 

So - net, net - it's not about whether powering 2 devices with a single LPS-1 with Y-cable is bad. It's which 2 devices.

 

 

 

Hi Rajiv:

 

What you wrote is true.  Powering both a microRendu and an ISO REGEN from a single LPS-1 does defeat the galvanic isolation.  But there are some factors to consider (besides the expense of a second LPS-1; you know I don't  push such things to anyone, you all just keep buying them at a furious rate! ):

 

a) Powering off a single LPS-1 does not diminish the goodness greatness of all the ISO REGEN's other enhancements (Crystek 575 clock, fantastic signal integrity, etc.) which benefit the microRendu > DAC interface in the same way as with computers.

 

b) The microRendu was designed to be very quiet.  There is not much junk coming out on its ground plane, so sharing it to the other side of the ISO REGEN via the isolated and quiet ground of the LPS-1 may not be a big deal.

 

b) Since the LPS-1 blocks the path of leakage current loops between devices (it's like using a battery--only much better!), with a single LPS-1 you are not introducing any new leakage current or path.  What I leading to with this is that if one were to use separate supplies and only one could be an LPS-1, I would put it on the ISO REGEN.  

 

For example, if one used any standard (AC mains attached) LPS or SMPS for the ISO REGEN, while galvanic isolation would still be preserved, the PS powering the ISO REGEN will join the leakage current loops of the DAC/DDC, preamp, etc. downstream (remember, AC leakage current loops are an interaction between AC>DC supplies--LPS-1's don't join those).

 

Yet when using an ISO REGEN and separately powering the microRendu from a standard AC supply (even a noisy SMPS though I don't advocate such), the leakage from that supply really has no place to go.  The microRendu has Ethernet on one side, and a full blocking setup (the ISO REGEN/LPS-1) on the other so no path for the standard supply's leakage to loop with some other.

 

Of course these are all pretty easy comparisons to make and what counts is what you hear!

 

Have a great weekend everyone.  (I'll be spending mine testing 100 each of ISO REGEN and LPS-1 circuit boards; I'll multi-task and catch up on e-mail and get out everyone's $50 ISO REGEN rebates at last!)

 

Best,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

Just posted a production update on the other thread:

 

 

[Superdad]

45 minutes ago, rickca said:

I hope the yield on your latest batch of ISO REGEN boards is excellent so you can continue to make lots of people happy.

 

All look great so far.

 

45 minutes ago, rickca said:

I was so impressed with how much the microRendu improved with the LPS-1 I'm not sure I'd do anything to potentially detract from it.

 

There are already positive reports of microRendu>ISO REGEN pairings.  Is ISO REGEN (with its superior clocking and hub chip) as big a deal for microRendu owners as for standard computer users (where there is lot of leakage currents and USB ports not optimized for signal integrity and proximity to DAC)?   Hard to say.  But certainly the ISO REGEN does not "detract" in any way.

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Hi Rajiv:

 

What you wrote is true.  Powering both a microRendu and an ISO REGEN from a single LPS-1 does defeat the galvanic isolation.  But there are some factors to consider (besides the expense of a second LPS-1; you know I don't  push such things to anyone, you all just keep buying them at a furious rate! ):

 

a) Powering off a single LPS-1 does not diminish the goodness greatness of all the ISO REGEN's other enhancements (Crystek 575 clock, fantastic signal integrity, etc.) which benefit the microRendu > DAC interface in the same way as with computers.

 

b) The microRendu was designed to be very quiet.  There is not much junk coming out on its ground plane, so sharing it to the other side of the ISO REGEN via the isolated and quiet ground of the LPS-1 may not be a big deal.

 

b) Since the LPS-1 blocks the path of leakage current loops between devices (it's like using a battery--only much better!), with a single LPS-1 you are not introducing any new leakage current or path.  What I leading to with this is that if one were to use separate supplies and only one could be an LPS-1, I would put it on the ISO REGEN.  

 

For example, if one used any standard (AC mains attached) LPS or SMPS for the ISO REGEN, while galvanic isolation would still be preserved, the PS powering the ISO REGEN will join the leakage current loops of the DAC/DDC, preamp, etc. downstream (remember, AC leakage current loops are an interaction between AC>DC supplies--LPS-1's don't join those).

 

Yet when using an ISO REGEN and separately powering the microRendu from a standard AC supply (even a noisy SMPS though I don't advocate such), the leakage from that supply really has no place to go.  The microRendu has Ethernet on one side, and a full blocking setup (the ISO REGEN/LPS-1) on the other so no path for the standard supply's leakage to loop with some other.

 

Of course these are all pretty easy comparisons to make and what counts is what you hear!

 

Have a great weekend everyone.  (I'll be spending mine testing 100 each of ISO REGEN and LPS-1 circuit boards; I'll multi-task and catch up on e-mail and get out everyone's $50 ISO REGEN rebates at last!)

 

Best,

--Alex C.

 

Hi Alex,

 

I think (?) we're in agreement. In fact, just in case anyone thought I was trying to dissuade people from sharing an LPS-1 between two components, let me point out I am doing this too - in a different context. Read my post here:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-sms-200-and-microrendu/?do=findComment&comment=668661

 

I just wanted to point out that there are additional considerations when you power two devices across an isolation boundary with the same power supply. We advise the same caution about powering two FMCs with the same power supply, as the isolation you're trying to achieve is being defeated by the common PSU.

 

What I think both you and I are saying is that the audible impact of defeating this isolation may be vanishingly small in some systems.

 

Still, I stand behind my original comments. Use your ears to decide what matters, but be aware of what you're doing when you share a PSU across an isolation boundary.

 

[MisterRogers]

Thought I'd take a moment to share some impressions. I first received a faulty unit, then a good / verified replacement on Friday. Functionally, it's working flawlessly. My digital chain includes:

 

Mac Mini (server) -> short USB cable (Pangea) -> ISO Regen -> USPCB Connector -> SU-1

 

Two LPS-1's power the ISO Regen / SU-1 each. The SU-1 is modified for external PS, and the on-board reg has been swapped out with a Belleson SPM. 

 

Dac is a Metrum Pavane, fed via AES from SU-1. The entire digital side is isolated with a SacThailand BLITZ (balanced line isolation transformer). 

 

Sonically, imaging is a bit tighter, staging a bit more precise, bass / mid-bass more solid / impactful, and highs less edgy - with a more natural decay. Background is a touch blacker. Compared to an Amber Regen, everything is improved. I read somewhere on CA that ISO allows us to hear deeper down the 'throat' of vocalists. Sounds a bit odd to say it, but I think that sums it up nicely. Subtle inflections, breaths, etc. are more pronounced. 

 

These are the audio 'cues' that can get lost with digital, that are slowly / wonderfully being recovered with products like ISO Regen & LPS-1. Bottom line: I can honestly say I've never heard a better digital chain (to my old ears).

 

Alex & John - very well done!

 

It's important to note that while subtle, the USPCB adaptor is definitely contributing to the high SI reaching the SU-1. 

 

Also - thanks for putting up with all of us through this 'half-launch' Alex. You've done / are doing your part to make it right; as we've come to expect. 

[Superdad]

On 6/4/2017 at 5:51 AM, MisterRogers said:

Also - thanks for putting up with all of us through this 'half-launch' Alex. You've done / are doing your part to make it right; as we've come to expect. 

 

I appreciate that Mike, but really the thanks belongs to all of you.  For your patience in waiting for your delayed IOS REGENs to arrive, and to the few of you who got a bum unit.  I recognize that this is not a trivial purchase (at least not for most of you), and receiving a new item with high expectations, only to have it exhibit glitchy behavior is very disappointing.

 

True isolation is a tricky thing, and the part we are using has some manufacturing variance.  Thankfully, my new analyzer is allowing us to throughly test every board to assure zero data errors.  It is a tedious process--I spent more than 12 hours this weekend certifying the 110 boards we have on hand (and a handful did not pass), and I still have another 30 to go.  (I have the analyzer and laptop set up next to my main computer, so I can do other work at the same time; am more caught up on e-mail than I have been in months! )

I also have been testing the units that came back, and the errors have been high on all of them; Which gives me confidence that these certified boards are going to be fine.

 

So enjoy your ISO REGENs. And to those still waiting, I promise we are diligently working to get yours ready.

 

Best,

Alex C.

 

P.S.  Tonight I will be changing the web site to start promising new orders for delivery in July.  (This is not for those who already ordered!  This is for new orders that will come in after tonight.)  Not only are we fully booked for June ISO REGENs, but incredibly, our last 250 run of UltraCap LPS-1s are about sold out as well.  I did not anticipate  just how many people would order the ISO REGEN/LPS-1 bundle.  Thinking it's time to look for another assistant! 

 

 

[tommytastic]

How does Microrendu alone compare with Iso regen with a standard mac mini/or mini pc.

[james_dmi]

Hi, I’m new to UpTone products and USB isolation / Regeneration. I have been reading about the ISO Regen and think I want to give this a try. It seems to me that the power delivered to the ISO Regen is as important as the isolation / re-gen function of the device. In my setup my preamp (Arcam C49) has 2 DC outputs one at 6v 1A and the other 12v 1A that are fed of separate regulated linear power supplies. These are designed to be an upgraded power supply for the Arcan r-dac line of products (which I don’t use). I was wondering if I obtain a suitable power cable could I use this to power the ISO Regen?   

The ISO will plug into my DAC (Arcam D33) which is mains powered class 2 (no earth). This is connected via balanced interconnects to the C49, also class 2 (no earth) which in turn connect via balanced interconnects to 2 Bryston 4B SST power amps (these are earthed)

The audio is being fed from a low power atom processor (no fan) mini PC. (VOYO v3 running latest JRiver)
I want to know if you would foresee any compatibility issues with the above setup. I currently do not suffer any earth noise or background noise of any kind with the system (and do not want to add any) I want to try the ISO Regen purely to see if any extra performance can be got out of the system and to ensure that no possible degrading electrical signal is coming from my “not built for purpose” cheap mini pc.

I understand that UpTone’s own high end power supply would probably be optimal but I just want to dip my toe in for now. I am assuming that the audio grade power supply in the pre amp should be better than the standard switch mode power supply.

 

Many thanks,

James

[greenleo]

16 minutes ago, tommytastic said:

How does Microrendu alone compare with Iso regen with a standard mac mini/or mini pc.

Can they be directly compared?  One is an NAA, LAN in and USB out, while the IR is a USBRegen, USB in USB out?

[tommytastic]

25 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Can they be directly compared?  One is an NAA, LAN in and USB out, while the IR is a USBRegen, USB in USB out?

 

Ultimately they are both systems that output digital via USB into my dac so the output can easily be compared.

 

I currently use a laptop but it's not ideal. 

 

I'm therefore deciding between buying a microrendu or an ISO regen and a small pc/mac mini. I'm curious to know which is likely to bring the greater sound improvement. I can evaluate the functional aspects easily myself.

 

regards

[lwr]

I have been listening to the ISO REGEN several hours a day for a couple of weeks now - with Audiophile Optimizer and HQPlayer, Curious cables, and alternating between a stock MicroRendu and a modified SOtM sMS-200, driving a modified Soekris R2R DAC.  

 

The sound quality improvement with the ISO REGEN is remarkable, as has been well described by others in this forum.  But what I feel has not been well described is that the ISO REGEN so effectively removes "digital grunge / digital glare" that when the ISO REGEN is removed from the system, the timbre of vocals, horns, and strings sound relatively "sterile / cold."  

 

I doubt that the ISO REGEN is inducing even order harmonic distortion products, but that it is instead so significantly reducing odd order harmonic distortion products that the effect is a "warmer / more natural sounding" signature.  I don't have the test and measurement gear to verify this, but my ears find the effect of the ISO REGEN to be overwhelmingly preferable to the sound of my system without it.  YMMV.

[tommytastic]

55 minutes ago, lwr said:

I have been listening to the ISO REGEN several hours a day for a couple of weeks now - with Audiophile Optimizer and HQPlayer, Curious cables, and alternating between a stock MicroRendu and a modified SOtM sMS-200, driving a modified Soekris R2R DAC.  

 

The sound quality improvement with the ISO REGEN is remarkable, as has been well described by others in this forum.  But what I feel has not been well described is that the ISO REGEN so effectively removes "digital grunge / digital glare" that when the ISO REGEN is removed from the system, the timbre of vocals, horns, and strings sound relatively "sterile / cold."  

 

I doubt that the ISO REGEN is inducing even order harmonic distortion products, but that it is instead so significantly reducing odd order harmonic distortion products that the effect is a "warmer / more natural sounding" signature.  I don't have the test and measurement gear to verify this, but my ears find the effect of the ISO REGEN to be overwhelmingly preferable to the sound of my system without it.  YMMV.

 

Are you in a position to try the ISO regen with a standard computer/laptop/mac mini (non optimised renderer) and compare with the output of the microrendu on it's own? 

 

Thanks, Tom

[Daudio]

3 hours ago, james_dmi said:

Hi, I’m new to UpTone products and USB isolation / Regeneration...

I was wondering if I obtain a suitable power cable could I use this to power the ISO Regen?   

 

I'll let Alex answer definitively when he has time, but I think you are probably Ok with the 6v/1A output (how cool to have that !). The reason I wanted to answer, is to complement you on the complete and easy way you described your question and system config. That makes helping you all the easier and satisfying. A lesson for others.

 

 

[Middy]

I am sure the SQ is improving on the Lps1 iso. In many places it's  just sounding so much clearer...  Getting a taste for its secret sauce..From my source errr...That is....

 

I know my hearing isn't getting better...my wife's is... Or more psychic hard to tell..

[musical physic]

Hi, 

 

Just wondering if anyone has actually compared between the iso regen vs intona + w4s rur combo? 

[Vangelis]

On 5/22/2017 at 11:02 PM, kennyb123 said:

A change for the better can be immediately heard with the ISO REGEN in place.  Cleaner, quieter, smoother, faster, more wide-open, more focused, more dynamic, more organic, more you-are-there.  

 

I'm using a Y-cable to power both the microRendu and ISO REGEN from the LPS-1.  Digital chain is Mac Mini with MMK/JS-2 running Roon bridged to microRendu > Audience USB > ISO REGEN > USPCB > Chord Hugo TT.

 

I'll likely share more observations after further listening.

 Can  anyone tell me where I can source a Y-cable and what the specifications for the plugs are?  Glad to hear the LPS – 1 one can drive both Uptone units simultaneously without any sonic issues. 

[jcn3]

5 hours ago, Vangelis said:

 Can  anyone tell me where I can source a Y-cable and what the specifications for the plugs are?  Glad to hear the LPS – 1 one can drive both Uptone units simultaneously without any sonic issues. 

 

here you go -- ghent audio.  5.5mm x 2.1mm plugs.

[lwr]

58 minutes ago, canali said:

 

i'm still hoping to find one who has an MR and LPS1...then also bought the iso regen...is there a difference or not with this addition to the chain?

In my post on page 9, I describe my experience with exactly that situation.  

[Forehaven]

Canali, this is my setup.  And YES!  The IsoRegen added very signif. audible improvements.  

[canali]

LWR and Forehaven: many thanks for your imput...'tis appreciated.

my chain is pretty simple: 10 yr old laptop as 'server' (will be upgrading to a Roon Nuc or such later)

with microrendu/lps to iFi micro iDSD (will be upgraded to a diff DAC later on..hugo 2..unsure)

 

thing is: is always thought the microrendu and lps would in themselves offer galvanic isolation, with no need for the iso regen.

[thyname]

Waiting for my ISO deliver (I was on the second batch for sale), I ordered myself another LPS-1 today.

 

My chain looks as follows:

 

Roon Core on sonicTransporter i5 ---> microRendu (currently powered by sBooster) ---> Modded SU-1 (powered by my existing LPS-1) ---> Holo Spring KTE DAC ---> iFi Pro iCan (Amp) ---> Focal Utopia (headphones).

 

Obviously the ISO (powered by the new LPS-1) will be placed between uRendu and SU-1.

 

Reading this entire thread (as well as other threads), to play it safe, I decided to have all three devices (uRendu, Singxer SU-1, and the ISO Regen) powered by its own linear power supply.

 

Although it seems like it would be OK to power the SU-1 and the ISO Regen by one LPS-1 via Y cable, something that @Superdad had mentioned to me via email.

 

So do I just sell the sBooster and use one LPS-1 to power both SU-1 and ISO Regen?

 

Do I keep what I have now?

 

Or do I sell the sBooster and buy a third LPS-1?

 

Another question: is one JS-2 better than two LPS-1s?

 

Where the heck is @Energy??

[mozes]

17 minutes ago, thyname said:

Waiting for my ISO deliver (I was on the second batch for sale), I ordered myself another LPS-1 today.

 

My chain looks as follows:

 

Roon Core on sonicTransporter i5 ---> microRendu (currently powered by sBooster) ---> Modded SU-1 (powered by my existing LPS-1) ---> Holo Spring KTE DAC ---> iFi Pro iCan (Amp) ---> Focal Utopia (headphones).

 

Obviously the ISO (powered by the new LPS-1) will be placed between uRendu and SU-1.

 

Reading this entire thread (as well as other threads), to play it safe, I decided to have all three devices (uRendu, Singxer SU-1, and the ISO Regen) powered by its own linear power supply.

 

Although it seems like it would be OK to power the SU-1 and the ISO Regen by one LPS-1 via Y cable, something that @Superdad had mentioned to me via email.

 

So do I just sell the sBooster and use one LPS-1 to power both SU-1 and ISO Regen?

 

Do I keep what I have now?

 

Or do I sell the sBooster and buy a third LPS-1?

 

Another question: is one JS-2 better than two LPS-1s?

 

Where the heck is @Energy??

Speaking out of experience. I recommend 2 LPS-1s. Keep the sbooster to energize them or sell it and get a cheapo LPS from ebay and pocket the savings. 

[thyname]

Just now, mozes said:

Speaking out of experience. I recommend 2 LPS-1s. Keep the sbooster to energize them or sell it and get a cheapo LPS from ebay and pocket the savings. 

Did you mean "three" LPS-1s? I would already have two.