Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[LowMidHigh]

Here's a more somber review:
https://m.bonedo.de/artikel/einzelansicht/mutec-mc-3-smart-clock-usb-und-ref10-test.html

Translated from German:

To test setup: I have a song with many tracks on eight stereo stems in the DAW divided and SSL SSLLink SX on my SSL matrix given, summed and added the mix on my Crane Song HEDD and this resumed. HEDD and Alphalink were digitally connected to my RME UFX +, SSL via MADI and CraneSong via AES / EBU. That was all fix - but what was not fixed was the clock supply on all three devices. And they looked like this:

Setup 1: The Clock of the RME was only in the SSL, HEDD was only AES / EBU.

Setup 2: The Crane Song clocks the RME and the SSL in parallel.

Setup 3: The MC-3 + USB clocks the RME and the SSL in parallel.

Setup 4: Just like setup 3, but now the MC-3 + USB gets a 10-MHZ reference from the REF 10. 

Sonically, the mix gets better with each setup! Especially the depths, especially the kick, is more precise, faster and even a little bit deeper. But even the stereo stage is clearly sorted and individual elements are placed more firmly, so swim less in Panorama. In short, everything seems clearly "tidier".

Setup 3 and 4 sound the best. However, the differences are not so huge, you have to listen to it for a while. That nevertheless the REF 10 makes another small, but subtle difference, I would not have expected! Whether it is worth the quite high extra charge, everyone must decide for themselves - the MC-3 + USB, however, in my opinion, but worth every euro

 

[julian.david]

On 10/11/2018 at 9:17 PM, Johnseye said:

 

All great questions I'd like to know the answers to.

 

Haven't forgotten you folks in this regard, but we've been on the road for AES New York. I'll have those answers for you early next week!

[LowMidHigh]

 

30 minutes ago, julian.david said:

 

Haven't forgotten you folks in this regard, but we've been on the road for AES New York. I'll have those answers for you early next week!

 

Thanks Julian.

 

REF10 user guide and an old post of yours give  the answer for question (4)

 

How far apart can I place the REF10 from the slave? I have 2 systems that could benefit from the REF10. One would demand a 14-meter word clock cable, though…

 

Answer: Not to exceed 2 meters, the shorter the better. You had very good results with 0.5 meter at one show. 

 

The other 3 questions are still pending of course.

[Tand]

https://audiobacon.net/2018/10/25/mutec-ref-10-master-clock-the-digital-audios-heartbeat/

[Arpiben]

Sorry if I didn't read all the pages, but since we are dealing with a reference clock, do we have any relevant measurement such as TIE, MTIE, TDEV, MDEV....? Not sure.

 

[LowMidHigh]

Greetings, virtual friends…

 

I’ve pulled a lot of information off this thread—and foisted myself on a few people—so it’s time to share my experience and observations.

 

Setup: HiBy R6 coax => MC3+USB [<- REF10] = > Active subwoofer

 

At first, I was sorely disappointed. After 24 hours of warm-up, I kicked the tires only to discover I could barely hear a difference. Nagging doubts crept in. Should I return it? Obviously, a nice chunk to re-line my pockets, but where was the promised glory?

 

48 hours later, enter the impact. A shaper musical outline was deftly drawn; minute details were accentuated; a wider, deeper and taller soundstage came into being. To my delight, the effect grew more profound with every passing day, although incrementally so. Those tighter mid basses and crystal-clear highs didn’t fail to leave an impression. 

 

As many others have pointed out, the REF10’s contribution—subtle as it may—is addictive. Of course, in terms of sheer value, the MC3+USB outmatches the reference clock with ease, but the REF10 puts on a finishing touch that music lovers would find hard to give up on, let alone ignore. 

 

It’s not all sugar and spices though. With some tracks, the REF10 can be too revealing, the highs approaching the glare territory. I doubt any sound engineer ever anticipated such a stark exposure—skin blemishes laid bare under a merciless sun. But those are rare.

 

Since I also received a 2^nd MC3+USB, I haphazardly experimented with a few other setups:

 

** MC3USB x 2 sans REF10 didn’t do much for me. 

** MC3USB x 2 + REF10 was a tad too thin to my liking, and the threat of glare loomed ever larger.

 

All in all, MC3USB x 1 + REF10 hits the spot for me.

[julian.david]

Hi all, 

 

As some of you may have already noticed, MUTEC has changed its U.S. distribution to TransAudio Group, a very seasoned and highly respected distributor of pro audio gear. They also are the exclusive distributor for ATC loudspeakers in the audiophile world. As a consequence it has unfortunately been inevitable to raise prices a little bit, but there are some real benefits for U.S. customers, too: MUTEC products like the REF 10, MC-3+ and MC-3+USB are now available and in stock at Sweetwater with free shipping and financing. So any last-minute Christmas shopping will be taken care of immediately! Also, you'll see MUTEC represented at more trade shows in 2019, which means that you can talk to real people in person and try out the equipment on your own. 

 

Alright, back to the gear talk ?

Julian

[julian.david]

On 10/27/2018 at 11:02 PM, Arpiben said:

Sorry if I didn't read all the pages, but since we are dealing with a reference clock, do we have any relevant measurement such as TIE, MTIE, TDEV, MDEV....? Not sure.

 

 

Sorry this took a while, but we didn't forget about you. Here are some measurement taken from a regular production REF 10 with τ = 1 second.

 

TIE: 6.07e-12

MTIE: 1.41e-11

TDEV: 1.66e-13

MDEV: 2.88e-13

 

ADEV: 3.62e-13

TMD: 2.44e-13

TTD: 1.41e-13

 

Honestly, while i generally understand what these measurements stand for, I personally don't have a lot of insights into how to interpret and evaluate them. But hopefully this works for you ? 

 

Best regards,

Julian

[modmix]

Thanks for sharing these quite impressive figures.

 

ADEV (Allan Deviation) is a kind of standard deviation. It gives the average time errors when measured every τ seconds.

Allan Deviation Explained has a quite instructive diagram:

 

So, we now know how stable the REF 10 is when looking at it ever τ = 1 sec.

With respect to sample rate (or music) 1 sec is quite a huge interval.

 

Allan deviation is not just a single figure. Over τ you usaually find something like this:

source: municom Fachartikel zum Thema Quarze mit geringem Phasenrauschen

More information can be found eg. here https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/popular-links/time-frequency-z)

 

Question:

What is ADEV for smaller τ values? eg. 1 msec, 10 msec...

A plot would be great.

 

Ulli

 

BTW:

Good old HP10811 ADEV for comparison:

• http://z21.vfdb.org/Archiv/pdf-Dateien/H.Schmiedel_Frequenznormal.pdf p.20: 5e-12
  
• http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm 8.6e-13

 

 

 

 

 

[Arpiben]

10 hours ago, julian.david said:

 

Sorry this took a while, but we didn't forget about you. Here are some measurement taken from a regular production REF 10 with τ = 1 second.

 

TIE: 6.07e-12

MTIE: 1.41e-11

TDEV: 1.66e-13

MDEV: 2.88e-13

 

ADEV: 3.62e-13

TMD: 2.44e-13

TTD: 1.41e-13

 

Honestly, while i generally understand what these measurements stand for, I personally don't have a lot of insights into how to interpret and evaluate them. But hopefully this works for you ? 

 

Best regards,

Julian

Thanks Julian.

You are right, it provides only partial information.

I did later realised that even companies dealing with synchronization systems for Telecom industry do not publish such details: Oscilloquartz, Symmetricom/Microsemi, etc...

Therefore I will not bother anymore with measurements or curves.

Once again, thanks for the time and efforts spent in providing the data.Much appreciated.

 

 

 

[soundlogic]

I have acquired a device that has a 50 ohm clock input, but I only have 75 ohm cables (3 different) can a 75 ohm cable be used from the 50 ohm connections on the Ref-10 and the other device without sacrificing sonic benefits? Thanks

[elan120]

38 minutes ago, soundlogic said:

I have acquired a device that has a 50 ohm clock input, but I only have 75 ohm cables (3 different) can a 75 ohm cable be used from the 50 ohm connections on the Ref-10 and the other device without sacrificing sonic benefits? Thanks

When there is an impedance mismatch between the load impedance and the transmission line, part of the forward wave sent toward the load is reflected back along the transmission line towards the source. The source then sees a different impedance than it expects which can lead to lesser power being supplied by it, which is highly undesired.

[soundlogic]

Thank You Elan120. Can you clarify "highly undesired"? Undesired sonically or detrimental to the electronics? Thanks.

Along those lines, short of me going back and re-reading this entire thread, are there any cost effective 50 ohm cables that can be highly recommend ? My 75 ohm purchased cables were based on my use of the REF-10 with MC3+USB, which I have removed at this time.

[elan120]

2 hours ago, soundlogic said:

Thank You Elan120. Can you clarify "highly undesired"? Undesired sonically or detrimental to the electronics? Thanks.

Along those lines, short of me going back and re-reading this entire thread, are there any cost effective 50 ohm cables that can be highly recommend ? My 75 ohm purchased cables were based on my use of the REF-10 with MC3+USB, which I have removed at this time.

Both.  Reflected power will add unwanted stress to the electronics as well as causing the signal phase to shift.

 

Here is one of the cost effective BNC cables I used with good result:  https://www.pasternack.com/bnc-male-bnc-male-rg400u-cable-assembly-pe3582lf-p.aspx

[LowMidHigh]

2 hours ago, soundlogic said:

Thank You Elan120. Can you clarify "highly undesired"? Undesired sonically or detrimental to the electronics? Thanks.

Along those lines, short of me going back and re-reading this entire thread, are there any cost effective 50 ohm cables that can be highly recommend ? My 75 ohm purchased cables were based on my use of the REF-10 with MC3+USB, which I have removed at this time.

 

Jitter.... 

[musicfirst]

Hi all.

 

Just wondering if there's a poor mans Habst out there thats a nice upgrade of the Pasternack RG216?  (For the Habst not...;-)

I've Tried the Snake river, which didn't float my boat, but just one mans opinion.

 

Thanks

[SlowikPL]

About the BNC 75 Ohm cables.

 

I had the opportunity to hear  the dCs - Vivaldi DAC , C.E.C 3.0 source and Mutec MC-3 USB and as master Clock Metec Ref 10.

The used Clock cables BNC Ware Shuynata Sigma Clock 75. And the sound was really good. Very Airly , with very detailed Bass and full body midrange. 

After this I tried another BNC cable. ( had only one PCs - and this connected from Mutec MC-3+ USB to Vivaldi ) This was : Synergistic Research Tesla LE D3 Digital (BNC) This Cable totally Killed the upgrade of the Clock in this setup. 

Also tried those Clock - Upgrade on my own dCs- Rossini ( with even greater magnitude results!!) Seems the Rossini gained more from this Clock Upgrade then Vivaldi. Also here was Synergistic Research Tesla LE D3 Digital (BNC) Totally destructive in my setup. 

 

 

Have anybody compared the BNC - cables Like Shuynata Sigma Clock 75 , Habst BNC 75 ohm reinsilber or others ? In my opinion there are on the market more goodies than this expensive Shuynata? ! Or not ?

[LowMidHigh]

 

41 minutes ago, SlowikPL said:

About the BNC 75 Ohm cables.

 

I had the opportunity to hear  the dCs - Vivaldi DAC , C.E.C 3.0 source and Mutec MC-3 USB and as master Clock Metec Ref 10.

The used Clock cables BNC Ware Shuynata Sigma Clock 75. And the sound was really good. Very Airly , with very detailed Bass and full body midrange. 

After this I tried another BNC cable. ( had only one PCs - and this connected from Mutec MC-3+ USB to Vivaldi ) This was : Synergistic Research Tesla LE D3 Digital (BNC) This Cable totally Killed the upgrade of the Clock in this setup. 

Also tried those Clock - Upgrade on my own dCs- Rossini ( with even greater magnitude results!!) Seems the Rossini gained more from this Clock Upgrade then Vivaldi. Also here was Synergistic Research Tesla LE D3 Digital (BNC) Totally destructive in my setup. 

 

 

Have anybody compared the BNC - cables Like Shuynata Sigma Clock 75 , Habst BNC 75 ohm reinsilber or others ? In my opinion there are on the market more goodies than this expensive Shuynata? ! Or not ?

 

As far as I understand, the REF10 sends out an analog, square wave that the receiver uses to time its operation. The mechanism depends on the flip between the bottom and upper region of the wave (when the wave either drops or ascends, it opens and shuts a virtual gate on the receiver side).

 

Unless the cable in question is flawed, I can’t conceive how it can affect that mechanism. Mind you, those ref clocks are installed in mission-critical satellites, and I’m pretty darn sure basic cables are employed (I inquired once with a military engineer). 

 

You say you hear the difference? Run an honest AB/X. If you can still tell which cable is which, kindly offer a theory as to why those expensive cables do a better job in transmitting a repetitive analog square wave. I’m brimming with curiosity.

[SlowikPL]

1 minute ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

 

As far as I understand, the REF10 sends out an analog, square wave that the receiver uses to time its operation. The mechanism depends on the flip between the bottom and upper region of the wave (when the wave either drops or ascends, it opens and shuts a virtual gate on the receiver side).

 

Unless the cable in question is flawed, I can’t conceive how it can affect that mechanism. Mind you, those ref clocks are installed in mission-critical satellites, and I’m pretty darn sure basic cables are employed (I inquired once with a military engineer). 

 

You say you hear the difference? Run an honest AB/X. If you can still tell which cable is which, kindly offer a theory as to why those expensive cables do a better job in transmitting a repetitive analog square wave. I’m brimming with curiosity.

Hi, 

 

I haven’t tried more then those fancy / pricey cables from above. Just asking anybody it the is a great replacement for Shuynata- BNC cable in there opinion. Any good results in comparison with those fancy ones cables. As I believe too there should be very cheap BNC - 75 Ohm cable maybe from Pro - market. 

I just know that Synergistic Research Tesla LE D3 Digital (BNC) totally killed the sound of those two setups and the very expensive Shuynata was the best from those two. 

[Confused]

48 minutes ago, SlowikPL said:

About the BNC 75 Ohm cables.

 

I had the opportunity to hear  the dCs - Vivaldi DAC , C.E.C 3.0 source and Mutec MC-3 USB and as master Clock Metec Ref 10.

The used Clock cables BNC Ware Shuynata Sigma Clock 75. And the sound was really good. Very Airly , with very detailed Bass and full body midrange. 

After this I tried another BNC cable. ( had only one PCs - and this connected from Mutec MC-3+ USB to Vivaldi ) This was : Synergistic Research Tesla LE D3 Digital (BNC) This Cable totally Killed the upgrade of the Clock in this setup. 

Also tried those Clock - Upgrade on my own dCs- Rossini ( with even greater magnitude results!!) Seems the Rossini gained more from this Clock Upgrade then Vivaldi. Also here was Synergistic Research Tesla LE D3 Digital (BNC) Totally destructive in my setup. 

 

 

Have anybody compared the BNC - cables Like Shuynata Sigma Clock 75 , Habst BNC 75 ohm reinsilber or others ? In my opinion there are on the market more goodies than this expensive Shuynata? ! Or not ?

As a clarification, were you using the MC3+USB as a “source” to the Vivaldi, Or was the MC3+USB/REF10 being used to generate the word clock for the Vivaldi?   (I presume the latter)

 

So if my assumption is correct, were you swapping the clock cables as pairs, or do your observations relate to the clock cable between the MC3+USB and the Vivaldi only?  I’m just trying to understand the set up you were trying here.

[SlowikPL]

2 hours ago, Confused said:

As a clarification, were you using the MC3+USB as a “source” to the Vivaldi, Or was the MC3+USB/REF10 being used to generate the word clock for the Vivaldi?   (I presume the latter)

 

So if my assumption is correct, were you swapping the clock cables as pairs, or do your observations relate to the clock cable between the MC3+USB and the Vivaldi only?  I’m just trying to understand the set up you were trying here.

 

Hi , 

 

C.E.C 3.0 was the source.

MC3+USB/REF10 is being used only to generate the word clock for the VivaldI..

I  had only one pair of Shuynata Sigma Clock 75. and only one cable of Synergistic Research Tesla LE D3 Digital (BNC ) that I used to for testing purposes between the MC+USB and Vivaldi. The second cable in this test between the MC+USB and the Ref 10 was Shuynata Sigma Clock 75

 

Have you got envy experience in more BNC - cables being used MC3+USB/REF10  to generate the word clock with great success with a dCs - gear?

[baconbrain]

Check out the following:

 

https://audiobacon.net/2018/10/25/mutec-ref-10-master-clock-the-digital-audios-heartbeat/

 

Jay makes a few recommendations in regards to cables in the review 

 

 

[Johnseye]

5 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

 

As far as I understand, the REF10 sends out an analog, square wave that the receiver uses to time its operation. The mechanism depends on the flip between the bottom and upper region of the wave (when the wave either drops or ascends, it opens and shuts a virtual gate on the receiver side).

 

Unless the cable in question is flawed, I can’t conceive how it can affect that mechanism. Mind you, those ref clocks are installed in mission-critical satellites, and I’m pretty darn sure basic cables are employed (I inquired once with a military engineer). 

 

You say you hear the difference? Run an honest AB/X. If you can still tell which cable is which, kindly offer a theory as to why those expensive cables do a better job in transmitting a repetitive analog square wave. I’m brimming with curiosity.

 

I can only guess that some cables are better at shielding than others.  Those that aren't may introduce some additional EMI/RF noise into the electronics.  Purely a guess on my part because otherwise what else could be going on?

[Johnseye]

34 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

Check out the following:

 

https://audiobacon.net/2018/10/25/mutec-ref-10-master-clock-the-digital-audios-heartbeat/

 

Jay makes a few recommendations in regards to cables in the review 

 

 

 

While a good article it is all subjective without explanation.  I often go with opinions like this when comparisons are made with low cost solutions in the mix because there very well may be a difference that is just unexplained by today's science or understanding.  It is very difficult to take bias out of the experiments and I suspect even the best of us are guilty of doing that despite our efforts.

[baconbrain]

2 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

While a good article it is all subjective without explanation.  I often go with opinions like this when comparisons are made with low cost solutions in the mix because there very well may be a difference that is just unexplained by today's science or understanding.  It is very difficult to take bias out of the experiments and I suspect even the best of us are guilty of doing that despite our efforts.

 

In the end, one has to trust their own ears.