Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[zoltan]

1 hour ago, Octagon said:

 

My own experience with the REF 10 is very positive. The improvement in music flow, clarity and soundstage is clearly recognized wether with my unmodified MC3+ USB or my modified MC3+ USB which has a floating 6V power supply unit attached.

 

1

May I ask what clock cable you use? And if you have such measuring equipment, have you tested the noise level at the other end of the cable (the receiving end)? That could be quite useful information.

[afrancois]

On 5/5/2018 at 9:29 AM, Octagon said:

Dear all,

 

there has been several quite interesting knowledge exchange started within this REF 10 thread on different topics which is good news. On the other hand we are loosing track and others will not be able to recognize the valuable discussion eg about power supply optimization because they will not search for that in a REF 10 thread, will they?

 

@ Chris: May I ask to move all power supply comments not referring to REF 10 to look&listen's thread "audio power supply optimization"

@look&listen: Thank you for starting an own thread on this topic. Maybe you could help Chris recognizing the right postings with naming them to him?

 

Back to our topic:

 

The measurements of the final REF 10 which is in production since a while has been improved against the data I have had available in my starting post a year ago:

Here are the actual measurements:

 

REF 10 phase noise:

1 Hz:               ≤  -116 dBc/Hz
10 Hz:             ≤  -145 dBc/Hz (old: -142 dBc/Hz)
100 Hz:           ≤  -160 dBc/Hz (old: -155 dBc/Hz)
1000 Hz:         ≤  -166 dBc/Hz (old: -160 dBc/Hz)
Noise floor:     ≤  -170 dBc/Hz (old: -166 dBc/Hz)

 

My own experience with the REF 10 is very positive. The improvement in music flow, clarity and soundstage is clearly recognized wether with my unmodified MC3+ USB or my modified MC3+ USB which has a floating 6V power supply unit attached.

 

If you have a chance you might take (hear) a look at the High End Munich if you visit Mutec's team.

 

Many thanks for helping us keeping on track

Enjoy the music and relax

 

Thomas

 

 

 

Thanks, Thomas for this update. You must have access to some very sophisticated/expensive equipment! I sure hope that my REF10 measures +/- the same. I've bought mine begin December last year at thomann.de. It surely does a fine job in my system. I also modified my MC3+ USB. It is now powered by an Uptone LPS-1.2.

[Octagon]

Hi Zoltan,

dear all,

 

On 5/5/2018 at 10:48 AM, zoltan said:

May I ask what clock cable you use? And if you have such measuring equipment, have you tested the noise level at the other end of the cable (the receiving end)? That could be quite useful information.

 

unfortunately I have no such measuring equipment as they are very expensive and there is no way to borrow this kind of equipment I am aware of. The data is the original data published by Mutec. As the data in my post a year ago has been from one of the last prototypes I updated my information of the measurements with the finally sold REF 10 data.

 

For the time being I use professional standard RG59 BNC-BNC cable with a length of 50cm. There are many interdependencies, cable is only one in the whole chain. And your question about measurement or the REF 10 with clock cable attached at the end of the cable is exactly what I would be interested in as well. Mutec is working on measurements of different cables because of the questions all of us raised. I suggested Christian Peters to offer one cable in different length at a recent price where the interaction with the REF 10 is measured and date can be published by Mutec.

 

From my perspective and as an additional sales argument I would even offer a sales option for a REF 10 including one or more cables and individual measurement of this REF 10 including the cable(s). That individual certificate will have a price tag because of extense individual work, but would help us getting the best out of the REF 10. To give an example, I own such a certificate for my Earthworks MC-30 measurement microphone. If we take a look at the market price of other, seriously comparable reference clock generators and other components in our chain this service could be added as an additional option.

 

@all:

Would you like to see such an offer from Mutec?

Will you be ready to pay for this service as an additional option?

What would be the price for the measurement procedure and certificate you would accept?

 

As I am based in Germany I would be happy to discuss CA members opinion on that face to face with Christian Peters. Maybe we find a valuable way forward for all of us?

 

Take care

Thomas

 

[d_elm]

1 hour ago, Octagon said:

Hi Zoltan,

dear all,

 

 

unfortunately I have no such measuring equipment as they are very expensive and there is no way to borrow this kind of equipment I am aware of. The data is the original data published by Mutec. As the data in my post a year ago has been from one of the last prototypes I updated my information of the measurements with the finally sold REF 10 data.

 

For the time being I use professional standard RG59 BNC-BNC cable with a length of 50cm. There are many interdependencies, cable is only one in the whole chain. And your question about measurement or the REF 10 with clock cable attached at the end of the cable is exactly what I would be interested in as well. Mutec is working on measurements of different cables because of the questions all of us raised. I suggested Christian Peters to offer one cable in different length at a recent price where the interaction with the REF 10 is measured and date can be published by Mutec.

 

From my perspective and as an additional sales argument I would even offer a sales option for a REF 10 including one or more cables and individual measurement of this REF 10 including the cable(s). That individual certificate will have a price tag because of extense individual work, but would help us getting the best out of the REF 10. To give an example, I own such a certificate for my Earthworks MC-30 measurement microphone. If we take a look at the market price of other, seriously comparable reference clock generators and other components in our chain this service could be added as an additional option.

 

@all:

Would you like to see such an offer from Mutec?

Will you be ready to pay for this service as an additional option?

What would be the price for the measurement procedure and certificate you would accept?

 

As I am based in Germany I would be happy to discuss CA members opinion on that face to face with Christian Peters. Maybe we find a valuable way forward for all of us?

 

Take care

Thomas

 

My Cybershaft OCXO OP-13 master clock comes with a certificate of calibration without additional charge or request.  Mutec should do the same and also test some cables and indicate the phase noise change, if any.

[zoltan]

4 hours ago, Octagon said:

From my perspective and as an additional sales argument I would even offer a sales option for a REF 10 including one or more cables and individual measurement of this REF 10 including the cable(s). That individual certificate will have a price tag because of extense individual work, but would help us getting the best out of the REF 10. To give an example, I own such a certificate for my Earthworks MC-30 measurement microphone. If we take a look at the market price of other, seriously comparable reference clock generators and other components in our chain this service could be added as an additional option.

2

Hi Thomas,

 

Thanks for your answer to the clock cable question. As for providing measurement data for each unit, I'm not sure that it can work. First of all, all units need several weeks to fully reach their best potential. If you bought a unit that is measured 1-2 dB less good than another, you'd feel you bought an inferior product.

Mutec guarantees that ALL units meet the published specs but there may be some that even measure better. In fact, I have never owned any audio equipment (many of them several times the price of the Ref 10) that came with published figures for that unit and in fact, I cannot remember high-end mass product manufacturers offering that at all. Such data could be published with any CD player, DAC, amplifier, speaker, etc. There are obviously several reasons why companies don't do that - two of these I mentioned above. 

As for the clock cable, Mutec last year in Munich advocated the Habst clock cable, they even distributed their business cards. They might offer their own clock cable later, but that will most likely be an OEM cable for another company (like Habst...) as Mutec has no other cable in their line-up. At the same time, since they have measuring equipment, it would be good to see such cable recommendations accompanied by published data for a few different lengths. 

 

Zoltan

[Confused]

On ‎06‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 5:08 PM, zoltan said:

it would be good to see such cable recommendations accompanied by published data for a few different lengths. 

Agreed - This would be excellent. 

[flkin]

I don't have measurements for cables connected to the Mutec but Kenji-san told me some information when I asked him the same question regarding my Cybershaft OP14. He replied :

 

Thank you for your reply. I understood your question.

Certainly, the 50 ohm cable 0.5 m degrades the characteristics of phase noise and alan dispersion.

However, its influence is very small, and we can not measure even with our high precision measuring instruments.

 

Approximate performance degradation values are shown below:

     Phase noise (offset 1Hz) / Allan Deviation (tau=1sec)

0.5m  less than 0.1dBc/Hz    / less than  2e-14

1.0m  less than 0.15dBc/Hz   / less than  2.5e-14

 

These are only an estimated value, not a measured value.

 

[austinpop]

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I have been in touch with Daniel at Habst cables. If you've been following this thread, you know these cables are highly regarded. Daniel tells me he is now able to supply his cables in both 75Ω and 50Ω versions.

 

I have asked Daniel if he would be open to giving us here on CA a discounted price as a group buy, and he is definitely interested. Before I can negotiate a discount with him, I'd like to gauge the level of interest. If you are interested in buying a Habst Digital BNC 5N Cryo Pure Silver, please PM me and let me know. I've already mentioned this on the "A novel..." thread, so if you've already PM'ed me, I have you in my count. As of now, I have 4 people interested for a total of 5 cables. 

 

Please PM me by Wednesday May 16. I will tally up the demand, and use that to negotiate a group buy with Daniel. Stay tuned.

[ThenewGearPPK]

On 4/28/2018 at 1:34 AM, Summit said:

Am I saying that DACs that that has internal PSUs are sounding bad? Absolutely not, am not talking in absolute and my DAC for example has 3 internal PSUs (while not in a separate enclosure are kept separated to the digital and analogue circuits by internal walls).   

 

 

Any mods that can isolate transformers that are bundled together inside a amp or DAC?

Like will Dynamat or copper tape help isolate the EMI/RFI from the transformers being so close together?

 

 

[Johnseye]

8 minutes ago, ThenewGearPPK said:

 

Any mods that can isolate transformers that are bundled together inside a amp or DAC?

Like will Dynamat or copper tape help isolate the EMI/RFI from the transformers being so close together?

 

 

 

Yes you can build a Faraday Cage or use 3M EMI adhesive shielding sheets. 

[austinpop]

On 5/14/2018 at 8:10 PM, austinpop said:

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I have been in touch with Daniel at Habst cables. If you've been following this thread, you know these cables are highly regarded. Daniel tells me he is now able to supply his cables in both 75Ω and 50Ω versions.

 

I have asked Daniel if he would be open to giving us here on CA a discounted price as a group buy, and he is definitely interested. Before I can negotiate a discount with him, I'd like to gauge the level of interest. If you are interested in buying a Habst Digital BNC 5N Cryo Pure Silver, please PM me and let me know. I've already mentioned this on the "A novel..." thread, so if you've already PM'ed me, I have you in my count. As of now, I have 4 people interested for a total of 5 cables. 

 

Please PM me by Wednesday May 16. I will tally up the demand, and use that to negotiate a group buy with Daniel. Stay tuned.

 

Quick update - this is in a holding pattern. I believe Daniel is exploring shipping options (at least to the US) with UPS and DHL that aren't as costly.

 

I'll update here as soon as I hear details from him.

[austinpop]

BTW - here's a fun exercise. When I bought my Ref 10, the seller tossed in a mystery cable that he said he couldn't recall the brand.

 

Can the cognoscenti on this thread please take a look and see if you can identify the brand and model? All I can tell is that it's a 75Ω cable, and has Furutech BNC connectors!

 

[zoltan]

Given the heatshrink the the braid cover that are both sold by the metre in any electric store, I'd be surprised if it was not a generic coaxial cable that probably costs...well not much.  

[austinpop]

2 minutes ago, zoltan said:

Given the heatshrink the the braid cover that are both sold by the metre in any electric store, I'd be surprised if it was not a generic coaxial cable that probably costs...well not much.  

 

It sounds surprisingly good. Not quite Habst level, but very decent.

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=816863

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=820527

 

[zoltan]

16 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

It sounds surprisingly good. Not quite Habst level, but very decent.

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=816863

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=820527

 

I read your post earlier already. These cables can come from any large manufacturer: Belden, Canare, Mogami, etc which follow strict industry standards and they publish specs to decimals. They should be at least good. They don't use extra purity copper or silver - needless to say - so high-end audio cables have these advantages. 

[johnsalvini]

It looks like it might be Neotech NEVD-2001 silver digital cable.

[austinpop]

On 5/20/2018 at 1:26 PM, johnsalvini said:

It looks like it might be Neotech NEVD-2001 silver digital cable.

 

Bravo! Thanks - that looks like a match. 

[zoltan]

4 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Bravo! Thanks - that looks like a match. 

Maybe it is Neotech. Or maybe not. My friend, who is the distributor for Neotech in Europe, is selling that sleeve separately by the metre. Any cable can be put inside. 
http://kacsa-audio.hu/webshop/home_audio__video.c.20/expandable_sleeves.c.191/es304820k.p.877

[zoltan]

On 5/22/2018 at 3:22 AM, austinpop said:

 

Bravo! Thanks - that looks like a match. 

I'm sorry that this is my second response to this topic but I took a picture of my pair of DIY speaker cable and my DIY power cord, both based on Acrolink cables but have the same sleeve that the mystery cable. I'm just saying this to make sure we don't start associating any sound character with Neotech clock cables before we really know that it is Neotech. The easiest way to find it is to remove the heat shrink (which doesn't look particularly fancy) and check. You can then replace the heat shrink with a nicer one without print on it. 

[austinpop]

OK folks - I just got confirmation from Daniel that he has agreed to do a group buy for Habst cables. There were a couple of details in his note that, perhaps due to our language barrier, were not clear to me. I've asked him to clarify, so should be able to post as soon as he replies.

[austinpop]

Habst cable group buy

 

From Daniel:

I am happy about the high interest. In the hope of reaching one or the other,  which otherwise no habst cable would buy, I make you the following offer:

• Minimum 10 cables need to be ordered by group for discount to apply
• Discount of -10% for orders up to 2 cables
• Additional discount of -5% for all customers who buy more than 2 cables.
• This action is limited to a total of 30 cables.
• The delivery time will be at least 4 weeks.
• No PayPal, except by bank transfer and prepayment.
• As a deadline for this "group purchase" action, I propose Thursday, May-31-2018.

So there you have it folks. To order or to clarify, please contact Daniel Steinert via email directly at [email protected], and identify yourself as participating in the CA Group Buy. Please do not PM me for more details or clarifications, as this is all the info I have. I should warn you that his response time is quite variable, so patience is required.

 

Prices are listed on the website http://www.habst.de/index.php/digital-xlr-rca-bnc.htm. As I understand it, the VAT rate in Germany is 19%, so non-EU countries get VAT reduction on the price.

[jjh1585]

@austinpop

I wanted to say thank you for your efforts with the group buy.

I have contacted Habst.

[flkin]

Thank you for the work Rajiv, I’ll email Habst shortly. 

 

I take his meaning to say that the offer is for total CA orders of between 10-30 cables. 

 

And within this figure, the stated discounts are offered. 

 

Are we at the 10 cable target yet?

 

[Patatorz]

deleted....

[sam1000]

Did folks receive  Habst cable from group buy? any early impressions? I did not pull the trigger since I had no chance to hear it. cheers..