esldude Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 8 hours ago, plissken said: I have one in for some subjective evaluation... So far I'm impressed even compared to my $499 Emotiva DC-1 and the $4000 Cary Audio DMS-500 streamer. Taking away the sighted evaluation really makes the subjective process easier. I'm going to live with it a bit more but for $79 the performance is just bonkers. Unfortunately, here at least, if I make a recommendation of this $79 wonder vs some $400 and $500 kit, I'll get a crap load of push back from people that go along with $$'s equal performance instead of good engineering. Or in some cases how much the DAC weighs. I think people would be hard pressed to pick this out blind vs other well measuring and certainly more expensive DAC's. You'll likely get a reception like I did at WBF once. Someone was asking for budget gear that really performed at a high level. I suggested it was easy for a system cost of $1500 or less which of course was scoffed at hard. WBF's idea of budget is pretty high. I was dared to give just one example. I suggested an Emotiva Stealth, and a pair of JBL LSR305s or 308s and you still haven't spent $1k yet. Plug in a computer or tablet you already have and your done. If you wanted to go on to $1500 you could buy a sub or two and those speakers will fill a large room with quite high quality sound, and yet still have a few bucks left over. plissken 1 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Jud Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Would love something in this price range that would be well built (no idea about the Behringer) and allow me to use the software upsampling (to DSD) I like. Not yet maybe, but perhaps by the time I'm ready for a new DAC. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
STC Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Panelhead said: Looks like 18 bit resolution for the Behringer. But 79.00 does not buy 22 bit. Does look good. I think for playback 16bit resolution is more than sufficient. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
plissken Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 13 hours ago, Panelhead said: Looks like 18 bit resolution for the Behringer. But 79.00 does not buy 22 bit. Does look good. How can you tell from the Jitter measurement? We don't see any response beyond 22Khz. Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted May 21, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 21, 2017 At half the price I purchased Behringer UMC22 a long while ago. My primary use for it was to connect a measuring mike to the PC to use with REW, so the 48KHz sampling was not a limitation. Turns out the A/D input, and the D/A output are both very clean and have a good linear response. I was very pleasantly surprised. tmtomh and STC 2 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
jtwrace Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 11 hours ago, Jud said: Would love something in this price range that would be well built (edited) and allow me to use the software upsampling (to DSD) I like. +1 Not sure that will happen with the majority of the Pro Industry who really doesn't think DSD is any advantage. tmtomh 1 W10 NUC i7 (Gen 10) > Roon (Audiolense FIR) > Motu UltraLite mk5 > (4) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBL M2 Master Reference +4 subs Watch my Podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMw_bZWBMtRWNJQfTJ38kA/videos Link to comment
plissken Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 22 minutes ago, jtwrace said: +1 Not sure that will happen with the majority of the Pro Industry who really doesn't think DSD is any advantage. I wonder how that opinion could be so widespread among content producers. Link to comment
Popular Post jtwrace Posted May 21, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, plissken said: I wonder how that opinion could be so widespread among content producers. In all fairness, if you listen to PCM done right, it's pretty amazing. Sadly, most of it isn't so it all starts at the beginning of the chain and it's hard to polish a turd. tmtomh, STC and plissken 3 W10 NUC i7 (Gen 10) > Roon (Audiolense FIR) > Motu UltraLite mk5 > (4) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBL M2 Master Reference +4 subs Watch my Podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMw_bZWBMtRWNJQfTJ38kA/videos Link to comment
Jud Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 3 hours ago, plissken said: I wonder how that opinion could be so widespread among content producers. My guess is a whole bunch of them don't know something very similar is the first digital bitstream in their ADCs, and that many of them also associate it with Sony and their attempt to take over the world with SACD. In fact I've read a few statements along the way that have given me that impression. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted May 21, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Jud said: My guess is a whole bunch of them don't know something very similar is the first digital bitstream in their ADCs, and that many of them also associate it with Sony and their attempt to take over the world with SACD. In fact I've read a few statements along the way that have given me that impression. I think you would be wrong about that for the majority of those recording. The reason DSD is not much of a presence in the pro world is very simple. You can't do editing and processing of DSD. You have to switch to analog or PCM for that and go back to DSD. So much processing is done now this factor makes DSD a non-starter in that industry. And yes actually there are starting to be some options for doing DSD processing, but they are all expensive and still limiting versus PCM. The chances DSD will be more than a niche in the recording side of the business is even lower than in the music selling side I think. If at some point enough effort is put forth to make available for peanuts tons of processing capability for free with a DSD ADC purchase that might change. As in there is no reason not to as it would effectively be as simple as staying PCM. Currently that is not the case. plissken and semente 2 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Jud Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 23 minutes ago, esldude said: I think you would be wrong about that for the majority of those recording. The reason DSD is not much of a presence in the pro world is very simple. You can't do editing and processing of DSD. You have to switch to analog or PCM for that and go back to DSD. So much processing is done now this factor makes DSD a non-starter in that industry. And yes actually there are starting to be some options for doing DSD processing, but they are all expensive and still limiting versus PCM. The chances DSD will be more than a niche in the recording side of the business is even lower than in the music selling side I think. If at some point enough effort is put forth to make available for peanuts tons of processing capability for free with a DSD ADC purchase that might change. As in there is no reason not to as it would effectively be as simple as staying PCM. Currently that is not the case. All their ADCs do start out with an SDM modulated bitstream, but I have seen statements from many producers indicating they aren't aware of that. Not that this is what keeps them from using DSD. As you point out, it's more involved than using PCM in the engineering and mastering process. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
rando Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 @plissken Following on from a comment in another thread. Do you expect this Behringer to be the overall winner in this budget DAC test? Otherwise it might be premature to recommend it widely given the recording functions play such a significant visual if not functional part in using it. Don't get me wrong, if it's effectively a better DAC than single function devices on the market who cares what it looks like at that price. Link to comment
plissken Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 21 minutes ago, rando said: @plissken Following on from a comment in another thread. Do you expect this Behringer to be the overall winner in this budget DAC test? Otherwise it might be premature to recommend it widely given the recording functions play such a significant visual if not functional part in using it. Don't get me wrong, if it's effectively a better DAC than single function devices on the market who cares what it looks like at that price. I don't expect anything. But I know a few things: 1. It measures well both noise floor and Jitter correction (i.e. applying it's own clock). 2. For the provided measurements it's showing better behavior than a popular audiophile brand at 443% greater costs with no where near the feature set. Pre inputs, HP jack, Balanced I/O. 3. The unit is solid and won't move around. 4. I took mine apart the the build quality is decent. 5. I know it's not a poor performing DAC. " Otherwise it might be premature to recommend it widely given the recording functions play such a significant visual if not functional part in using it." I have zero idea what you mean by the above quote. Link to comment
Eric Auer Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Only USB in is a little bit of a bummer tho. Eric Link to comment
plissken Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Eric Auer said: Only USB in is a little bit of a bummer tho. Eric This is COMPUTER audiophile last time I checked Link to comment
Eric Auer Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Just now, plissken said: This is COMPUTER audiophile last time I checked Of course. But naturally one wants more if possible. Eric Link to comment
plissken Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, Eric Auer said: Of course. But naturally one wants more if possible. Eric You would want to visit www.wantsmoreifpossibleaudiophile.com Old Listener 1 Link to comment
Eric Auer Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, plissken said: You would want to visit www.wantsmoreifpossibleaudiophile.com I would, but too busy staring at the optical out jack on my computer atm. Eric Link to comment
plissken Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, Eric Auer said: I would, but too busy staring at the optical out jack on my computer atm. Eric Use your good eye... Link to comment
rando Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 What I very well mean is if a worthier contender arises it would naturally become the device to point people investing with a lower level of interest towards. That is a very generalized comment, but at the lower end it's fair to suggest a widely ranging usage case. mp3 out of a phone, low quality internet streams, electronic sounds abusive to speakers, gaming, netflix, anything audio associate the average person might force through it with the expectation of a cleaner signal. Link to comment
plissken Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 39 minutes ago, rando said: What I very well mean is if a worthier contender arises it would naturally become the device to point people investing with a lower level of interest towards. Agreed. There are more DAC's to come at $99 or under. What the Behringer UMC 204HD is showing I don't see it problematic with the lack of other comparable priced DAC's yet to be benched to make a recommendation out of it since it does perform well against a known and popular audiophile DAC. Link to comment
plissken Posted July 3, 2017 Author Share Posted July 3, 2017 On 5/23/2017 at 1:49 PM, rando said: What I very well mean is if a worthier contender arises it would naturally become the device to point people investing with a lower level of interest towards. Sure why wouldn't I or anyone else recommend something even better. The greedy consumer wants 100% of the performance, 100% of the features all at 0% of the cost. On 5/23/2017 at 1:49 PM, rando said: mp3 out of a phone, low quality internet streams, electronic sounds abusive to speakers, gaming, netflix, anything audio associate the average person might force through it with the expectation of a cleaner signal. Don't really have an idea of what you are getting at. Sure you can play crappy, hyper compressed, low bit rate streams through $100,000 DAC's if you like. Link to comment
esldude Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 Cheaper DACs are getting better. Some more expensive DACs while better I think have already passed the point where humans can hear a difference. These recording interfaces seem to go in cycles. As better ADC/DAC chips are made available they design around them and ratchet up the quality every so often. Currently quite a number of recent audio interfaces are right near full 20 bit performance for less than $1000. I think once you reach that there isn't anywhere left to go sonically. So maybe the lower priced items like the Behringer will hit that mark next time around in maybe 4 years. For that matter I am not so sure humans could hear it where performance lies now. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post AnotherSpin Posted July 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 3, 2017 23 minutes ago, esldude said: Cheaper DACs are getting better. Some more expensive DACs while better I think have already passed the point where humans can hear a difference. These recording interfaces seem to go in cycles. As better ADC/DAC chips are made available they design around them and ratchet up the quality every so often. Currently quite a number of recent audio interfaces are right near full 20 bit performance for less than $1000. I think once you reach that there isn't anywhere left to go sonically. So maybe the lower priced items like the Behringer will hit that mark next time around in maybe 4 years. For that matter I am not so sure humans could hear it where performance lies now. Humans couldn't, audiophiles could. Or they will claim they could, at least. esldude, Eric Auer, STC and 1 other 4 Link to comment
rando Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 6 hours ago, plissken said: Don't really have an idea of what you are getting at. Sure you can play crappy, hyper compressed, low bit rate streams through $100,000 DAC's if you like. Ah, but the type of person who is going to buy a $79 DAC in place of a receiver will be listening to "crappy, hyper compressed, low bit rate streams." The vast majority of music on computers is ripped mp3's. An answer that polishes the aforementioned turds would also do a handy number on historical performances. Who cares if it doesn't treat high res files so kindly. As for why I felt need to point out another device could preempt the object of this thread? Such is the way industry works. As soon as the first domino falls the market gets flooded. Some are bound to function better than others. One may even be fantastic value for money until the masses get wise to it. Link to comment
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