Proper Grounding a system

[Cornan]

8 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

Please list some proctored demonstrations.

 

Audio enthusiasts are given to reporting any number of things.

Art Dudley :: Stereophile Magazine

 

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=entreq+grounding+boxes+reviews ?

[Speedskater]

28 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=entreq+grounding+boxes+reviews ?

Exactly which of the 4160 links should I look at?

 

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

Exactly which link should I look at?

 

 

The world wide web is open for you. Why not start with the first search result and move forward? http://www.v2.stereotimes.com/post/entreq-ground-boxes/

[fas42]

Have fiddled with grounding arrangements, and it always changes the sound - but I wouldn't buy an expensive box to deal with it. 'Fixing' the engineering of the overall system is the smartest approach - the fact that one has a number of boxes tied together with cable using flakey connectors is just asking for trouble; no wonder these add-ons have an effect.

[Speedskater]

17 hours ago, Cornan said:

The world wide web is open for you. Why not start with the first search result and move forward? http://www.v2.stereotimes.com/post/entreq-ground-boxes/

Nothing about real tests or demonstrations there.

[Johnseye]

I'm surprised that no one has compared or commented on the Synergistic Research grounding products.  From what I've read it looks like this might just be an alternate connection from devices to the main house ground.

 

http://www.synergisticresearch.com/accessories/ground-isolation/

 

Has anyone demo'd these products?  I had them demo with and without at Axpona but that's in a loud environment.  A lot of people ooo'd and ahhh'd saying they could hear the difference, but I couldn't tell.

[Johnseye]

On 6/14/2017 at 10:40 PM, Tecnik1 said:

Entreq boxes is nothing short of amazing, one only has to disconnect the boxes to hear the SQ collapse to an almost unlistenable level.

 

For the typical nay sayer to which this hobby is full of " usually engineers you really need to try before running off at the mouth that is if your system is really high end and is up to it.

 

 

Are you serious that without these ground boxes your sound quality degrades to where it is nearly unlistenable?

To tie that in with your next statement, "if your system is really high end" then how could equipment be any good if it requires this grounding box to be listenable?

 

I know you're trying to be convincing, but you shot yourself in the foot with those statements.

[monteverdi]

In this review http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/stand-your-ground/ CAD ground control CG1 is preferred to Entreq Silver Tellus. I wonder what is the technology used is these different boxes, all are passive except the more expensive versions of Synergistic Research and how much these boxes vary in their efficiency.

[Speedskater]

On 6/14/2017 at 11:40 PM, Tecnik1 said:

................................... and the sound improvements with the Entreq boxes is nothing short of amazing, one only has to disconnect the boxes to hear the SQ collapse to an almost unlistenable level...................................

I wonder why we don't read about blind demonstrations of these grounding boxes at hi-fi shows and club meetings?

If there are amazing improvements, then a quick blind demo should be a walk in the park.

[monteverdi]

The demo I attended at the Highend for the CAD ground control was pretty blind for me as I was not paying attention to what they were doing (was only interested in the speakers) until I noticed an obvious sound difference.

[Speedskater]

That's not what is meant by a blind test.

Everyone in the room needs to be blinded.

[marce]

What worries me is constant incorrect references to ground planes, a ground plane is a structure found on a PCB, it is a separate layer with no other signals than a large contiguous 0V copper pour, providing a contiguous return path for the signals on adjacent layers, nothing else is a ground plane. In commercial audio there may be ground planes in the digital equipment (there should be, a 4 layer board being the minimum for digital designs) and occasionally in low level analogue sections such as pre-amps... but if it is not a contiguous dedicated ground layer then it is not a ground plane. There is a lot of misuse of terms withing the marketing/advertisement for all these products and NO measurements.

 

[Speedskater]

Marce old buddy, while a PCB layer is the most common use of ground plane, it's not the only use. My 1970 electronics dictionary has the phrase. Long before multi-layer PCB's.

[marce]

Yes but a ground plane has a particular use, it has to be a plane, connecting wires to these boxes and having a routed ground means there is NO ground plane, I have to disagree on this as the meaning and operation of a ground plane are very specific. I would like to sea the definition from your 70's dictionary... Earlier references were often referring to the reflecting surface for antennas (often mother earth) which is the other allowable use of the term ground plane... wires are not a ground plane.

Multi-layer PCBs have been around since the 60's.

[Speedskater]

On ground planes, Ralph Morrison, in his book "Grounding and Shielding in Facilities" wrote:

 

There are many classes of ground planes including metal clad on printed circuit card, a shipboard bulkhead, an aircraft's  metal fuselage, the earth's surface, and a computer's raised floor or the ocean's surface. Some ground planes are continuous conductive surface while others are are made of a grid of conducting strips. A ground plane need not be horizontal or rectangular.

 

So while now the most common use of the term is a layer in a PCB, there have been many other uses of the term.

[marce]

Yes but you cannot get away from the fact that a ground plane is a specific structure where the coupling between the "ground plane" and the signal is quite intimate and complete, a single wire does not couple the same, a wide return trace under a signal has to extend quite some distance to couple as a ground plane. As I said previously the first use of the term was for the coupling of antennas, whether it is a PCB, mother earth, a metal plate in an EMC lab, its just the size that differs, the coupling between signal and ground plane is the same. So the term ground plane refers to either a reflective coupling or return current coupling where the return path is an area far larger than the signal wire, trace or antenna.

We are discussing semantics to an extent, read some of the blurb regarding these boxes and what they do, a single wire going to a box of muck does not enhance any ground planes that may be present in the equipment.

I don't think I have that particular Ralph Morrison book, but knowing his fondness for wves I wouldn't be surprised if he shows the coupling between signals etc. and ground planes, I would be interested in any references. I have his "The fields of electronics" I'll scan through that later.

[Speedskater]

With-out question audiophile equipment supplier's misuse 'ground plane' along with countless other electronic terms.

My original small point was that PCB's are not the only real ground planes.

[Jud]

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 11:27 AM, Johnseye said:

I'm surprised that no one has compared or commented on the Synergistic Research grounding products.  From what I've read it looks like this might just be an alternate connection from devices to the main house ground.

 

http://www.synergisticresearch.com/accessories/ground-isolation/

 

Has anyone demo'd these products?  I had them demo with and without at Axpona but that's in a loud environment.  A lot of people ooo'd and ahhh'd saying they could hear the difference, but I couldn't tell.

 

Ah yes, Schumann resonances.

[marce]

Yes I should have answered with the broader meaning of a ground PLANE, the important thing it being a plane.

 

[Speedskater]

Those Schumann resonances are nothing more than thunderstorms around the world. I have never noticed anything when an approaching thunderstorm is still several hours away, so I don't know why people think it's a good thing. But I do know that the battery powered toy generators don't do anything. An effective generator would need many hundred watts.

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

Those Schumann resonances are nothing more than thunderstorms around the world. I have never noticed anything when an approaching thunderstorm is still several hours away, so I don't know why people think it's a good thing. But I do know that the battery powered toy generators don't do anything. An effective generator would need many hundred watts.

 

Don’t you know that filtering and tuning ground noise to the characteristic resonance frequencies of lightning energy as it bounces around the giant waveguide between Earth and the ionosphere makes system grounding ever so much more effective?

[marce]

You can even buy sheets that are grounded, with benefits that are unbelievable... but based on similar beliefs as the grounding boxes, that mother earth is a sink for all the bad things (in audio reproduction noise). (I hope this comment is not construed as putting audiophiles down:)).

[Jud]

5 minutes ago, marce said:

with benefits that are unbelievable...

 

That could be taken in two ways - and I’m sure has been.

[Johnseye]

51 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Don’t you know that filtering and tuning ground noise to the characteristic resonance frequencies of lightning energy as it bounces around the giant waveguide between Earth and the ionosphere makes system grounding ever so much more effective?

 

[Jud]

28 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

Guilty as charged.