Proper Grounding a system

[Jud]

14 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

So posts that validate or vindicate his opinion or purchase are encouraged?

 

What if someone has personal experience with one of these boxes and felt it did nothing for him?  Presumably that would be right on point.

[Speedskater]

7 minutes ago, Jud said:

What if someone has personal experience with one of these boxes and felt it did nothing for him?  Presumably that would be right on point.

Amir did just that.

http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/entreq-signal-grounding-preliminary-measurements.476/

[Jud]

2 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Amir did just that.

http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/entreq-signal-grounding-preliminary-measurements.476/

 

I didn't see a friendly chat about personal listening experience, positive or negative, there.

 

When the OP has indicated so clearly what he desires in the thread - and even if he wants only affirming views, for that matter - it seems to me quite impolite to insist on having a different discussion *in this thread*.

 

If I'm serving as a foil for you to keep taking this off topic, then perhaps saying this is my last post in the thread will help.  I'll be happy to engage in such a discussion in another thread where it's on topic.

[MikeyFresh]

13 hours ago, Daudio said:

 

Please don't feed the trolls.

 

Yashn's thread is a more welcome place for Objectionist concerns and mocking.

 

 

+1 on that, total trolls whose entire aim is to fight about things rather than discuss them.

 

These trolls always have the last word, because they are always 100% right and anyone with a contrary opinion, or even an inquisitive approach is mocked.

 

Now they reference that complete charlatan Amir? Says all anyone needs to know.

 

These trolls should just crawl back into the hole they came from on the ASR forum, where they can stroke each other's egos to no end, and freely attack/mock anyone not fully subscribing to their objectivist dogma.

 

Earth to @Speedskater: Amir is a nobody, he has exactly zero credibility, you should be very embarrassed and choose your references more carefully.

[marce]

15 hours ago, Speedskater said:

I didn't do the tests, Amir did:

http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/entreq-signal-grounding-preliminary-measurements.476/

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

As for interference problems, they are probably rare and situation specific. Just rearranging the equipment on a different style rack could change the problem.

My suspicions pretty much proved... I did say earlier that shoving a bit of unterminated wire in your scope will replicate the effect of a grounding box.

[marce]

15 hours ago, Jud said:

 

@marce, are there ways noise in the MHz frequency range might adversely affect audio that you know of?

Hi Jud, keeping well I hope?

The answer is yes and no... EMC immunity is firstly about stopping the noise getting in... Secondly controlling and minimising the effect any noise that gets in has and in the case of digital systems minimising the self created noise and its effect. Low level circuits are more prone than power amps , pre-amps etc. The circuit and how it is laid out is a big help here, proper 0V reference planes, internal filtering, proper decoupling all limit any effect the noise will have. What we found on AN-VIC5 was that hf (MHz) noise could add to the overall noise levels. The biggest problem though was not the effects of high frequency; which can be filtered by frequency and thus not affect the audio signal; its noise in the audio frequency range. So yes and no, its dependant of the circuit and its immunity, filtering and layout, and good layout practice allowing for low impedance (for HF low inductance) paths for HF (RF) noise to shunt it back to source with the smallest loop possible. For low level signals this means proper layer stack up and a contiguous 0V reference plane or two (or more), proper decoupling, connector placement etc. Connector placement is critical, generally on most boards connectors are placed on the edges of the PCB. Not only does it make attaching cables easier, it also means we can create a "virtual wall" to minimise noise coupled down the cables (as Amir,s tesst showed). Generally there will be a separate dirty ground, usually chassis, this is kept clear of the on board GND (NO capacitive coupling) and is used as a return for small low value caps placed next to the connectors pins to form a low impedance shunt for noise picked up by the cable. This is the critical first point of protection as the caps are fast and will conduct immediately. Depending on the level of protection you need, the next line is usually transorbs, again these need to be as near to the pins as possible, with low impedance routes. The important thing is that the connection from the connector pin must go from the pin to the transorb to its relevant input, the transorb must not be on a spur. A more extreme method is to have a split connector ground and put every signal through a pi filter consisting of a low value small case cap, a ferrite bead (or inductor) then another small cap same value. The grounds are split so there is a distinct moat through the centre of the ferrite beads. With careful layout and the right components you can get good EMC levels into the GHzs. I did post some picture of the above on some Jitterbug thread, cant find them at the moment as I dont have my works PC. This just scratches the surface of it all, I would recommend having a look at the info on this site, Keith Armstrong is far more qualified on the subject than I am,

http://www.emcia.org/keitharmstrong.aspx

 

[marce]

16 hours ago, Daudio said:

 

Please don't feed the trolls.

 

Yashn's thread is a more welcome place for Objectionist concerns and mocking.

 

How when I have posted so many relevant links on the subject am I a troll, is it because the information I have presented does not follow or support your beliefs. I am sorry for that but I cannot change reality and you do not seem to be inclined to read some of the presented facts and possibly gain a wider understanding of what is happening or not here.

[marce]

2 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

+1 on that, total trolls whose entire aim is to fight about things rather than discuss them.

 

These trolls always have the last word, because they are always 100% right and anyone with a contrary opinion, or even an inquisitive approach is mocked.

 

Now they reference that complete charlatan Amir? Says all anyone needs to know.

 

These trolls should just crawl back into the hole they came from on the ASR forum, where they can stroke each other's egos to no end, and freely attack/mock anyone not fully subscribing to their objectivist dogma.

 

Earth to @Speedskater: Amir is a nobody, he has exactly zero credibility, you should be very embarrassed and choose your references more carefully.

Wow! To much zeal for me... Despite Daudios objections to trying to decipher what if anything is happening with these boxes he does not have the fire and brimstone zeal I see here. Its just a discussion, one that I would happily carry out over a glass of wine with no malice, just a mild frustration that one side cant see my view (and of course visa versa).

Peace.

 

[marce]

One final question...

What is the purpose of a ground rod?

The true answer is relevant and interesting.

[Cornan]

6 hours ago, marce said:

One final question...

What is the purpose of a ground rod?

The true answer is relevant and interesting.

 

http://www.spgs-ground.com/information/purpose-of-ground-rod

[jabbr]

Peace. This is audio. No children have been harmed in the production of grounding boxes. Turns out the Sedona Crystal Vortex had an oversupply, which was placed in a box. Music sounds better in its presence. Thousands of people swear so.

 

I bumped a parallel thread which is friendlier to discussions of electronics. @marce you have much experience in this field and your comments are welcome "over there", i.e. on a more appropriate thread.

[audio.bill]

On 5/19/2017 at 11:26 AM, michaelD said:

WOW - we have gone off course big time here.  My original post did not ask about theory of operation it was just  a way for others to express their results with grounding boxes.  In particular Entreq boxes and soon the new Nordost QKore that was just introduced at the Munich show.  Some may even have the Telos boxes that would be interesting also.  Somehow we got way off tangent with this subject.  I you have no experience with these or other grounding boxes please save your comments as they are not being helpful.  If you do by all means lets hear how you got started and why you continue to use them.  

 

Personally I've been listening to my demo more enhanced Entreq setup and I really like what it does.  The note attacks are much crisper, particularity noticeable in the bass and the overall the music is more engaging and real. The other aspect is the darkness of the background.  I already had that with my initial setup with the Silver Tellus connected to the QB8 ground lug and at least for me adding the demo boxes did not enhance that but it really wasy excellant already.

Admittedly there is time needed about a day needed initially and once you disconnect it takes some time for the effect to diminish.  So a good AB is not all that possible and my memory is not as good as it used to be.  However what I'm told about the QKore is that it is immediate on and off so a much better idea of how it effects the overall sound will be much more noticeable.  I have all the models coming so hopefully late next week or over Memorial day weekend I will be having some fun testing.     

@michaelD-- Please try to ignore the many distractions and tangents on this thread, there are those of us who are still curious to learn about your first hand (subjective!) experience with the Nordost QKORE system and how it compares with the Entreq system. Thanks in advance, and I look forward to your report!

[michaelD]

Yes I will keep on subject.  I have QKore 1,3and 6 coming by this weekend and should have the mighty Olympus next week.   It should be interesting 

[Speedskater]

On 5/21/2017 at 11:28 AM, jabbr said:

@marcePeace. This is audio. No children have been harmed in the production of grounding boxes. .......................

Hold on, that's a dangerous incorrect statement!  If an audiophile connects a component to a grounding box or to a ground rod in place of a correctly wired Safety Ground/Protective Earth system, then children could be killed.

[michaelD]

Ok so I got some news to report.  

 

First off I got a Q1, Q3 and Q6 late last week.  However the Q6 was damaged in shipping so I could not test with that unit.  Its too bad as that is the one I really wanted to test since I could connect all my components to it. However I proceeded to move ahead using the Q1& 3.

 

Here are the combo's I used with my system:

 

1. Entreq Silver Tellus w/Everest, Apollo wire and earth ground both connected to the QB8 ground lug.  This has been my base setup for a few years now.

2. Q1 and earth ground connected to the QB8 lug.

3. Same as 2 except adding Q3 and connecting two more cables one each to M28 mono amp RCA's.

4. 1, 2 and 3 all together

5. Same as 3 but removing earth ground

 

Conclusion:

1 &2 not much difference at all.  If pushed hard I would give it to the Entreq box.  However the Entreq box was on an aluminum pan with spikes to my basement floor through carpeting.  The Q1 was on carpet in front of my amps. The reason being the 2M cables that come with the units were a little short to place it on the Aluminum pan with spikes.  I believe that may have been why the Nordost came up a little short.  Either way regardless its a plus sonically to have either connected.

 

3 was the best setup by far!  Its hard to say which is better Nordost or Entreq as its over a week ago but I had a similar setup with Entreq when I has 2 Silver minimus with Everest connected to the negative speaker output on each M28.  In addition at the time I also had my two digital components - Aurender N10 and Bricasti M1 DAC connected to the Silver Tellus. This sounded really good but can't test the Nordost solution until I get a working Q6.

 

4 did not help. Can't say it hurt but why add more items and extra cost with little gain.

 

5 by removing the earth ground this took away from the sound.  I have tried this in the past with the Entreq box alone and found that adding a earth ground did improve the effect.  So same with Nordost.

 

So what did I hear?

Bass was the big story in my opinion.  The Bass was deeper also being more solid or crisp. Over all the sound was just more engaging with some soundstage particularly 3D improvement.

 

I did finally move the Q1 and Q3 in a space that was close enough so their 2M cables would work so I could stack them on top of one another.  In addition I put TC sort kones under the Q1 and then the Q3 on top of that then placed this stack on my aluminum pan but replaced the spike feet with Sort Fut.  Boy this really made a big improvement.  The effect was even greater in all aspects nothing new just a much more noticeable total effect.

 

Entreq Vs Nordost - I do like the immediate effect that the Nordost product does.  It takes about 24 hours for the Entreq and doing a AB compare gets complicated and difficult.  I will have more to say once I connect the Q6 up.

 

So what is left is to get a new Q6 hopefully will be here by the weekend and then connect it to everything thing including the two digital components.  I think this will be the best but need to listen first. 

 

 

 

 

[Cornan]

Interesting, thanks for sharing @michaelD! I will follow your experiments with great interest!  

 

[michaelD]

So over the weekend I had a change to test a Qkore 6. What this did beyond the previous review is add my two digital components - Aurender N10 and Bricasti M1 SE DAC.  I really really liked the results with all my components hooked up.  

 

Now comes the tricky part how did it compare to the Entreq demo.  So for clarity purposes I want to describe the setups.

 

A. Silver Tellus w/ Everest connected with Apollo wire to QB8 and earth ground connected to QB8.

 

B. Entreq silver Tellus w/ Everest connected to a QB8  N10 and M1. connected using Apollo wires.  Also two Silver Minimus with Everest each connected to my M28 mono's. Also earth ground connected to QB8.

 

C. Nordost Qkore 6 connected to QB8, M1, both M28's and N10. Also earth ground connected to QB8.  The Q6 is supported by 3 TC kones on a aluminum pan which is also supported by four sort fut.

 

D.  Never tested but connect two Olympus minimus with Everest to each Amp the the rest to the Silver Tellus like in B above.  All connected with Apollo wires.  Ideally you want according to the manufacturer want to keep the analog separate from the digital.

 

As I said before setup A I have had for several years.  Both B and C were a real nice improvement in the bass particularly (deeper and more crisp) and in just the music sounding more real.  Describing these changes are not my full time job so I apologize in advance if my descriptions are not all the descriptive. 

 

Now comes the hard part what's better?  With Entreq it takes about a day for the full effect so its real hard to do a AB compare.  Since I started with Entreq its hard for me to just cast them off with a new product.  If pushed I would have to say C was definitely better than B.  I did some testing without the TC kones and Sort fut and that most definitely detracted from the experience using the Q6. How D would compare to C not certain but I would be surprised if it was better.  However with the Nordost product there are three things that I really liked which had nothing to do with performance.  Since they were so close at least for me it swayed me in the Nordost direction.

 

Assuming a Entreq Silver Tellus and two Olympus Minimus plus Apollo wires would be needed to compare the Nordost Q6:

 

1. Space - Entreq would take up a lot more space.  You certainly could stack them but I think isolating them with Still points or Sort Kones would improve the experience so even more space is needed.  The Nordost solution is compact and takes up a lot less space.To isolate it with Stillpoints or Sort Kones would be a lot easier.

 

2.  Cost - Long time user of Nordost products performance comes at a price in some cases a pretty steep price.  If you add up the two above solutions including the wires needed the Nordost solution will come in much less.  

 

3.  Time to hear the results.  Nordost solution is instant Entreq takes about 24 hours for full effect.  I really like the instant part.  It was like plugging in a new component to compare to another.

 

 

[Cornan]

Great review @michaelD! Written like a pro. Makes me very interested in Nordost grounding boxes. Actually, I will check them out right away.

 

I have a Aucharm grounding box plus 3pcs Douk Audio mini grounding boxes coming pretty soon. I will compare the much cheaper Aucharm to Entreq Minimus which I have used for many years now. The mini grounders will be added to my active speakers and to a D-Link network switch.

[YashN]

2 hours ago, michaelD said:

Nordost Qkore 6

2 hours ago, michaelD said:

So over the weekend I had a change to test a Qkore 6.

 

 

With Entreq it takes about a day for the full effect so its real hard to do a AB compare.

 

Nordost solution is instant Entreq takes about 24 hours for full effect.  I really like the instant part.  It was like plugging in a new component to compare to another.

 

 

 

I have certainly read more than one reports from people using the Entreq 'signal grounding' boxes about the delayed effect. This is one of the intriguing things about it. Not sure what causes this. I haven't seen anyone (even the textbook know-it-alls) give an explanation for that.

 

Hadn't heard of the Nordost box until now. Will check it out. In the meantime I am building a lot of synthesizer gear, and of course, we get similar issues with grounding between different modules and the prevailing use of unbalanced interconnect cables...

[michaelD]

27 minutes ago, YashN said:

 

I have certainly read more than one reports from people using the Entreq 'signal grounding' boxes about the delayed effect. This is one of the intriguing things about it. Not sure what causes this. I haven't seen anyone (even the textbook know-it-alls) give an explanation for that.

 

Hadn't heard of the Nordost box until now. Will check it out. In the meantime I am building a lot of synthesizer gear, and of course, we get similar issues with grounding between different modules and the prevailing use of unbalanced interconnect cables...

Not sure either what the technical reasons for the delay but I can tell you there is one.  

 

Just as  side note I took my Entreq Silver Tellus with Everest over to my son's setup.  He has a all in one (stereo and home theater) consisting of Parasound Integrated, Aurender N100H, Pioneer Elite receiver and Martin Logan 13a's, Stage X  and a single 210 sub.  He has my old QB8 also connected to a earth ground wire.  We proceeded to swap the main power cable to the QB8 from a Nordost Red Dawn to a Frey 2 and then moved the Red Dawn to replace the stock power on the 210.  In addition we connected the Silver Tellus to the QB8, Parasound and Pioneer.  Boy did that make a huge change!  In addition there was a small hum coming from his system that was driving both of us nuts for weeks that is now almost gone.   I had a similar issue with a hum in my media room and since I did not have much space and it was pre-Qkore I got a silver minimus and connected it to the ground lug on the Anthem AVM60 and the hum is completely gone!!

[audio.bill]

8 hours ago, michaelD said:

So over the weekend I had a change to test a Qkore 6. What this did beyond the previous review is add my two digital components - Aurender N10 and Bricasti M1 SE DAC.  I really really liked the results with all my components hooked up.  

 

Now comes the tricky part how did it compare to the Entreq demo.  So for clarity purposes I want to describe the setups.

 

A. Silver Tellus w/ Everest connected with Apollo wire to QB8 and earth ground connected to QB8.

 

B. Entreq silver Tellus w/ Everest connected to a QB8  N10 and M1. connected using Apollo wires.  Also two Silver Minimus with Everest each connected to my M28 mono's. Also earth ground connected to QB8.

 

C. Nordost Qkore 6 connected to QB8, M1, both M28's and N10. Also earth ground connected to QB8.  The Q6 is supported by 3 TC kones on a aluminum pan which is also supported by four sort fut.

 

D.  Never tested but connect two Olympus minimus with Everest to each Amp the the rest to the Silver Tellus like in B above.  All connected with Apollo wires.  Ideally you want according to the manufacturer want to keep the analog separate from the digital.

 

As I said before setup A I have had for several years.  Both B and C were a real nice improvement in the bass particularly (deeper and more crisp) and in just the music sounding more real.  Describing these changes are not my full time job so I apologize in advance if my descriptions are not all the descriptive. 

 

Now comes the hard part what's better?  With Entreq it takes about a day for the full effect so its real hard to do a AB compare.  Since I started with Entreq its hard for me to just cast them off with a new product.  If pushed I would have to say C was definitely better than B.  I did some testing without the TC kones and Sort fut and that most definitely detracted from the experience using the Q6. How D would compare to C not certain but I would be surprised if it was better.  However with the Nordost product there are three things that I really liked which had nothing to do with performance.  Since they were so close at least for me it swayed me in the Nordost direction.

 

Assuming a Entreq Silver Tellus and two Olympus Minimus plus Apollo wires would be needed to compare the Nordost Q6:

 

1. Space - Entreq would take up a lot more space.  You certainly could stack them but I think isolating them with Still points or Sort Kones would improve the experience so even more space is needed.  The Nordost solution is compact and takes up a lot less space.To isolate it with Stillpoints or Sort Kones would be a lot easier.

 

2.  Cost - Long time user of Nordost products performance comes at a price in some cases a pretty steep price.  If you add up the two above solutions including the wires needed the Nordost solution will come in much less.  

 

3.  Time to hear the results.  Nordost solution is instant Entreq takes about 24 hours for full effect.  I really like the instant part.  It was like plugging in a new component to compare to another.

 

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to share your impressions!

[michaelD]

So at this point I'm kind of done and waiting for others to try either solution and hear their comments.  Suggestions I would have is the following:

 

1.  The QB8 has a nice ground lug to attach too.  Not sure what other distribution type power strips have.  I have seem many that look similar but not certain if they have a ground lug.  To me I think this is important as all my components are plugged into this one connection point so it makes sense to me to have a common lug for grounding.  I'm not saying that Nordost QB8 is the only one to consider but if it was me I would be looking for that feature.  According to Nordost their system is effective if just connected to various components.  I did not try that but the manufacturer claims it will work so then no matter what setup you have it will work.  Also for that matter the Entreq solution can be similarly just connected to components.  Just a warning with the Entreq box setup as they recommend to connect to the negative terminal of your stereo amp or mono for best results.  You must not connect them to the same box if not I think there is a safety concern.  So like the Silver Tellus that I had you must not connect them to the same box.  An Olympus yes as it's essentially three separate boxes or for Stereo to a single Silver minimus.  They also recommend not connecting digital and analog for best results.  Nordost from what I know has no such issues that I'm aware of but I did not try either.  They also do not recommend to connect to the negative terminal of a amp only a spare connection which in my case was a RCA.  My original setup was with a Q1 for just the ground to the QB8 and the the Q3 I just hooked up the two mono amps.  I did not have a spare cable to connect either of my digital inputs but I think I could of.  Of course with the Q6 I could connect all components to the same box.

 

2.  For those that can I would recommend a earth ground in addition to whatever grounding box you decide on.  Like I have said previously with both the Entreq box and Nordost box adding the earth ground did help and it was noticeable.  If you are on a 2nd story etc. and can't don't sweat it as the box is way more effective then the earth ground by itself its just if you can it does a the bit more.

 

3. I have worked with Entreq and Nordost and both of the dealers I have worked with let me try first.  I would certainly encourage to demo on your own system.  I believe the Nordost one will be much easier spacewise and being instant on once connected to demo however.

 

I'm very interested in any that actually do try and to hear your results.

[Tecnik1]

The basis for any high end system is proper grounding with both analog and digital sources having their own independent ground. The Entreq is a source ground as I understand it correctly and I was a skeptic as well but the Entreq does work. I have the Entreq Silver Tellus for my amp and Dac, The Olympus Miniumus for my pre amp and the silver minimum for my Aqvox switch and router and the sound improvements with the Entreq boxes is nothing short of amazing, one only has to disconnect the boxes to hear the SQ collapse to an almost unlistenable level.

I also run two grounding cables per source to the Entreq which is also highly recommended. I also have the Everest knobs on all of the boxes which is another leap in SQ. 

 

Most dealers who carry the Entreq Boxes well let you try for a week or so free before purchasing. The SQ usually improves instantly and continues to improve after 4 hours then 48 hours and finally settling at 2 weeks.

 

For the typical nay sayer to which this hobby is full of " usually engineers you really need to try before running off at the mouth that is if your system is really high end and is up to it.

 

[marce]

LOL

 

[marce]

Without engineers you would not have any music system to listen to, farmers can only come up with components that don't follow any know physics so don't work, engineers have given you the systems you listen to music on, the recording chain,  the computers you type on, the internet you communicate by etc. Trouble is being an engineer means you have to work within the known laws of physics and electronics...