Proper Grounding a system

[mozes]

10 minutes ago, Daudio said:

 

Oh, I certainly believe in grounding ! I just do not believe these 'boxes' are grounds.

 

There is no circuit, and that is what I can't get beyond. If there was some kind of electrostatic charge from these materials, I wouldn't think it would have enough energy to affect anything at audio levels, or if it does, I'd think some big-money battery companies would be jumping all over it !

 

I've been an audiophile long enough to be open minded about a lot of odd things, so perhaps there is an audible effect. But I can't in clear concious call it 'Grounding'. Maybe it is some other effect  ?

 

Oh and, I'm not trying to rain on your hobby, but I would very much like to understand this thing better.

 

 

I am not an electrical engineer but honestly you can call it what you want  

I know that this thing works in my system and I would like other audiophiles to enjoy it as well. 

[Cornan]

14 minutes ago, Daudio said:

But I can't in clear concious call it 'Grounding'.

 

Well, gounding is a confusing and missused term in general. What we normally talk about in audio systems is a reference point. These reference paths are not pure by any means. They carry a lot of noises (another missused term) and it is these noises that are drained away to the grounding boxes. The grounding boxes are usually called ground enhancers, ground purifiers etc. Grounding boxes is just a simplified name for them, just like hum stoppers, ground blockers etc are called DC blockers as well.

[Speedskater]

6 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Sorry, but your post shows just how much you know about grounding boxes. Grounding boxes have absolutely nothing to do about safety ground. No one is going to rip out their safety ground or ground rod and replace it with a grounding box. It is not their purpose.

Yet in the first post:

 My main power strip is a Nordost QB8 which has a very convenient ground lug.  I have attached to it a separate earth ground (different from my electrical box house ground) .

I read that as a  separate connection to Mother Earth not to a grounding box.

[Speedskater]

6 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Sorry, but your post shows just how much you know about grounding boxes. .................................

So very true. I know nothing about  'grounding boxes'. I have never seen a technical description using Ohm's & Kirchhoff's laws to explain how the circuit works.

[Speedskater]

6 hours ago, Cornan said:

..................................................

Grounding on equipment is just a 0v reference point. Think about batteries and think about airplaines. They work just fine without safety ground. The ground reference point is just the difference between + and -. Grounding boxes are effective to reduce shield interfearences, static electricity, high frequency noises, leakage loops, ground loops etc in cables, chassis, equipment ground planes, AC mains etc.

Yes a good definition for ground is:

'a common reference point'

But I don't see all the hi-fi components connected to one grounding box.

 

I believe that the grounding boxes with 3 terminals have the terminals isolated from each other.

[Daudio]

25 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

I have never seen a technical description using Ohm's & Kirchhoff's laws to explain how the circuit works.

 

Perhaps that is because there is no circuit, just one wire connected to... nothing...

 

 

23 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

Yes a good definition for ground is:

'a common reference point'

 

I would prefer the term "System Ground", to clearly differentiate from 'grounds' that are actually earthed, and thus complete a circuit through the underground dirt, water table, whatever, that supports the movement of electrons, charge and current.

 

Why do you think lightning bolts are so fond of mother earth 

 

 

[Speedskater]

1 hour ago, Daudio said:

....................................................................

Why do you think lightning bolts are so fond of mother earth 

That's a different ballgame, sort of like a Van de Graaff generator  with mother earth being one plate and the cloud the other.

[Daudio]

58 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

That's a different ballgame

 

Don't be so serious 

[Ralf11]

Let's see....  where is effective grounding important?  What industries?  And one where cost overruns are not rampant (hospitals)...  How about semi-cond. manf. - what do they use?

[Cornan]

6 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Yet in the first post:

 My main power strip is a Nordost QB8 which has a very convenient ground lug.  I have attached to it a separate earth ground (different from my electrical box house ground) .

I read that as a  separate connection to Mother Earth not to a grounding box.

 

I beleive it means the QB8 is connected to a dedicated circuit and the grounding box is connected to the GND screw on the QB8. 

 

With that said I will leave you guys alone and come back when something interesting regarding grounding boxes or anything thread related turns up! ?

[marce]

14 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Sorry, but your post shows just how much you know about grounding boxes. Grounding boxes have absolutely nothing to do about safety ground. No one is going to rip out their safety ground or ground rod and replace it with a grounding box. It is not their purpose. Grounding on equipment is just a 0v reference point. Think about batteries and think about airplaines. They work just fine without safety ground. The ground reference point is just the difference between + and -. Grounding boxes are effective to reduce shield interfearences, static electricity, high frequency noises, leakage loops, ground loops etc in cables, chassis, equipment ground planes, AC mains etc.

Except it doesn't work that way... how does the noise current know to go down the single wire to the ground box? 

If you really want to learn about it start here...

http://sites.ieee.org/ctx-emcs/files/2010/09/Archambeault-Ground-Myth.pdf

Then like those of us who handle return current paths noise etc in electronic systems refer to the likes of Henry Ott, Ralph Morrison etc. Then you will realise as I said earlier, all you are doing is adding an antenna to your system. There is no where for noise current to go to, this mythical GROUND is not some ultimate current sink. You can divert and filter noise using standard well documented practices. Keith Armstrong's papers on EMC UK are a good source of practical information.

 

 

[marce]

11 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Well, gounding is a confusing and missused term in general. What we normally talk about in audio systems is a reference point. These reference paths are not pure by any means. They carry a lot of noises (another missused term) and it is these noises that are drained away to the grounding boxes. The grounding boxes are usually called ground enhancers, ground purifiers etc. Grounding boxes is just a simplified name for them, just like hum stoppers, ground blockers etc are called DC blockers as well.

How is the noise differentiated from the signal...

Noise cannot just be drained away.

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, marce said:

How is the noise differentiated from the signal...

Noise cannot just be drained away.

 

"Noise" in ground are positive charged. Tourmaline stones are negative charged. Do the math!

[marce]

34 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

"Noise" in ground are positive charged. Tourmaline stones are negative charged. Do the math!

What a load of tosh, we are talking electronic signals, waves, I would suggest you read some of the links I have posted. Also have a look at this to get a basic understanding of electronic signals and how they travel.

http://www.x2y.com/filters/TechDay09kr_hpa_Track2_1_Precision_Analog_Designs_Demand_GoodPCBLayouts _JohnWu.pdf

What I meant was how does a grounding box differentiate between noise and signal...

 

Basically what you have is a wire poked in a box of muck, crystals, BS; whatever you want to put in the box will have exactly the same effect, which is at worst case the wire acting as an antenna and picking up noise, at best nothing. Adding one of these boxes goes against all EMC guidelines and is just someone making money out of the misplaced belief that the Ground, earth etc is a big sink for noise etc. Nope it ain't and as I said in an earlier paragraph, how do you differentiate between noise and signal on a ground plane... You don't you have to create filters etc. and do the job properly, sticking a bit of 14 gauge in a box of muck is not going to solve any problems just create them more likely... No other area of electronics would do this, and you have to ask yourself why?

Also no data from anyone especially the Farmer selling his boxes of muck, no empirical data, no serious white papers nothing but some anecdotes that feed on peoples misplaced beliefs.

[michaelD]

14 hours ago, Daudio said:

 

Oh, I certainly believe in grounding ! I just do not believe these 'boxes' are grounds.

 

There is no circuit, and that is what I can't get beyond. If there was some kind of electrostatic charge from these materials, I wouldn't think it would have enough energy to affect anything at audio levels, or if it does, I'd think some big-money battery companies would be jumping all over it !

 

I've been an audiophile long enough to be open minded about a lot of odd things, so perhaps there is an audible effect. But I can't in clear concious call it 'Grounding'. Maybe it is some other effect  ?

 

Oh and, I'm not trying to rain on your hobby, but I would very much like to understand this thing better.

 

 

Typical Dribble from someone that has never tried a ground box.  I've been working real hard to have an honest test.  According to Entreq it takes a day to reach max and about the same once disconnected.  I have demoed this during this week and I can say for certain it does make a difference.  The attack of notes is much quicker and the sound is more spacious.  You certainly have the right to your opinion but to dismiss out of hand without actually doing the work is just "Noise". Sorry it does not meet your technical standard of measurable but for me my ears have measured and the verdict is it does work. 

 

For those interested in what this thread was about comparing Entreq to Nordost QKore my Q box should be here late next week to compare.  I the meantime I'm enjoying the Entreq setup. 

[audio.bill]

19 minutes ago, michaelD said:

For those interested in what this thread was about comparing Entreq to Nordost QKore my Q box should be here late next week to compare.  I the meantime I'm enjoying the Entreq setup. 

I'm quite interested in the results of your planned comparison, thanks for sharing!

[marce]

1 hour ago, michaelD said:

Typical Dribble from someone that has never tried a ground box.  I've been working real hard to have an honest test.  According to Entreq it takes a day to reach max and about the same once disconnected.  I have demoed this during this week and I can say for certain it does make a difference.  The attack of notes is much quicker and the sound is more spacious.  You certainly have the right to your opinion but to dismiss out of hand without actually doing the work is just "Noise". Sorry it does not meet your technical standard of measurable but for me my ears have measured and the verdict is it does work. 

 

For those interested in what this thread was about comparing Entreq to Nordost QKore my Q box should be here late next week to compare.  I the meantime I'm enjoying the Entreq setup. 

Typical dribble... provide some empirical data.

As well as the other links, that if any believers bothered to read they would understand these things just don't work like they say they do...

Here is Henry Otts views on ground, pages 5 and 6 are all you need to read if you cant be bothered with all the facts.

http://emlab.ee.ntou.edu.tw/emlab/EMC/EMC-03-P1.pdf

On a more positive side I am willing to sell boxes of muck and a bit of wire for $150, its easy money.

[Speedskater]

2 hours ago, Cornan said:

"Noise" in ground are positive charged. Tourmaline stones are negative charged. Do the math!

I'm not good at poetry.

Could someone translate this into technical English?

[Speedskater]

7 hours ago, Cornan said:

I beleive it means the QB8 is connected to a dedicated circuit and the grounding box is connected to the GND screw on the QB8......................................

Could 'michaelD ' enlighten us, as to what it meant?

[Speedskater]

A real grounding box would be a block of copper with a bunch of terminals or set-screws. Then a braided strap to the chassis of each hi-fi component. Except the the components with double insulated chassis's.

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

"Noise" in ground are positive charged. Tourmaline stones are negative charged. Do the math!

 

Ground typically refers to a reference point which is assigned 0V. "Noise" can be either voltage noise or current noise. In any case with typical electrical circuits, current refers to a flow of electrons which are defined as having a negative charge. The flow can be either toward or away from a point. Voltage is considered a potential and the equation V= IR is the classic description of Voltage as a potential across a resistance.

 

The phrase "'Noise' in ground are positive charged." does not itself make sense according to the common definitions of "noise" "ground" and "charge". Are you using a different language? If so, can you try and translate that to the English definitions we are using, along with the common Physics definitions we are using?

 

"Tourmaline stones are negative charged" is more sensical because the electronics and ions in a physical structure like a stone, or perhaps a chemical compound like a protein, are not freely mobile as they are in an electrical conductor. Thus a physical object can have what we call a "static charge".

 

Can you explain?

[Daudio]

1 hour ago, michaelD said:

Typical Dribble from...  

I've been working real hard to have an honest test.

Michael,

 

You misunderstand me. I am not criticizing any audiophiles, but the manufactures claim that what they are selling is some kind of grounding device, since it not connected to... anything.

 

The phenomena you are trying to honestly comparison test is not my concern at the moment. The supposed theoretical basis for it, is where I have a problem. I am willing to be convinced by knowledgeable argument - but not by any listening tests, which could very well be due to unknown, or un-discussed phenomena.

 

Do you see the distinction ?

 

1 hour ago, michaelD said:

but to dismiss out of hand without actually doing the work is just "Noise". Sorry it does not meet your technical standard of measurable

 

Please go back and read my posts - never did I dismiss anybodies listening tests, hearing, or sanity. Nor did I say anything about measurement.  Only that I don't know your 'ears' or equipment, so I can't give your listening reports as high a credibility (for me), as those from folks I know, and can trace back to things I've actually heard. This is not a dismissal, but my standard procedure for evaluating listening reports, applied to all of the multitude that I hear of and read about. And this is a moot point anyway, since I'm not attacking them, nor even interested in the results right now.

 

I will continue to question the mis-application of the idea of 'grounding' to these devices, without any desire, or need, to criticize your ownership, experimentation, or evaluation of them.

 

I hope you can accept this explanation and move on.

 

[89reksal]

These grounding boxes/devices sound like they may be working on the same theory as these grounding devices that have been around for years. Here's a link with some information on them (they also offer a 45 day money back guarantee which has to say something imo):

 

http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/grounding-devices-2/

 

Link to instructions on using the devices (linked from above link):

 

http://www.audiosensibility.com/information_links/GroundingDevices_Instructions.pdf

 

 

Here's a link with info on connecting to the Entreq Grounding Boxes:

 

http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/entreq-grounding-cables/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Speedskater]

12 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

Here's a link with info on connecting to the Entreq Grounding Boxes:

http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/entreq-grounding-cables/

I don't see any information about connecting the box on that page.

[Speedskater]

18 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

These grounding boxes/devices sound like they may be working on the same theory as these grounding devices that have been around for years. Here's a link with some information on them (they also offer a 45 day money back guarantee which has to say something imo):

http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/grounding-devices-2/

Link to instructions on using the devices (linked from above link):

http://www.audiosensibility.com/information_links/GroundingDevices_Instructions.pdf

No real information there!

 

These units appear to be GroundSide devices, which are total nonsense.

At lest the grounding boxes are based on a common misunderstanding.