Proper Grounding a system

[Ralf11]

the Navy is using ELF too - don't forget their effects on your stereo

 

John, do you know how much they want for those 'active' gnds?

 

 

[Johnseye]

39 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

the Navy is using ELF too - don't forget their effects on your stereo

 

John, do you know how much they want for those 'active' gnds?

 

 

 

At Axpona the "Ground Block" version was between $400-500.  I don't recall the exact amount.  IIRC the Active Ground Block was a couple grand, between $2-3k,  Don't quote me though.

[Ralf11]

a few hundred isn't too bad; I'm not sure what an active gnd is...

[Speedskater]

16 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

a few hundred isn't too bad; I'm not sure what an active gnd is...

It's a solution in search of a problem.

Or maybe a sink/sump for your money.

[audio.bill]

I have to say it again, but I honestly don't understand how some can continue to condemn a product that they've never tried or heard for themselves. I was as skeptical as anyone about the Nordost QKORE system until I heard it, but once I did I became a believer. No it wasn't a double blind test under laboratory conditions, just listened to familiar music on a system that I know well and the changes were obvious and repeatable. Listening to music is an emotional journey which is subjective by nature, and over the years I've found many components which may not objectively measure better to sound better. We may not have the ability to measure to levels which our ears can discern, or more likely we may sometimes be measuring the wrong things. I listen subjectively and critically but I let my heart be my guide, and I'm an electrical engineer. To each their own...

[Johnseye]

9 minutes ago, audio.bill said:

I have to say it again, but I honestly don't understand how some can continue to condemn a product that they've never tried or heard for themselves. I was as skeptical as anyone about the Nordost QKORE system until I heard it, but once I did I became a believer. No it wasn't a double blind test under laboratory conditions, just listened to familiar music on a system that I know well and the changes were obvious and repeatable. Listening to music is an emotional journey which is subjective by nature, and over the years I've found many components which may not objectively measure better to sound better. We may not have the ability to measure to levels which our ears can discern, or more likely we may sometimes be measuring the wrong things. I listen subjectively and critically but I let my heart be my guide, and I'm an electrical engineer. To each their own...

 

I don't know if it is being condemned, but being questioned.  More like doubted until proven factual.  Typical scientific method.  There are many things we can do to change the sound of our system.  The grounding box devices claim to remove noise from the signal path, allowing more of the original source to be heard, lowering the floor and improving the overall listening experience.  I think the jury's still out and looking for definable evidence, not just empirical, to show this is actually happening.  I don't think anyone's claiming you aren't hearing something different.

[Jud]

41 minutes ago, audio.bill said:

I have to say it again, but I honestly don't understand how some can continue to condemn a product that they've never tried or heard for themselves. I was as skeptical as anyone about the Nordost QKORE system until I heard it, but once I did I became a believer. No it wasn't a double blind test under laboratory conditions, just listened to familiar music on a system that I know well and the changes were obvious and repeatable. Listening to music is an emotional journey which is subjective by nature, and over the years I've found many components which may not objectively measure better to sound better. We may not have the ability to measure to levels which our ears can discern, or more likely we may sometimes be measuring the wrong things. I listen subjectively and critically but I let my heart be my guide, and I'm an electrical engineer. To each their own...

 

Note I personally only commented on the Synergistic Research stuff. This is the second time I’ve seen an “explanation” from them regarding how a product is supposed to work that has big scientific words but doesn’t hang together if you know what the words mean.

 

The first time it happened (cables were the product) I mentioned it in a comment on Audiostream, and within a few days Synergistic had changed their website copy (in a rather cagey way) regarding what I pointed out.

[Johnseye]

42 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Note I personally only commented on the Synergistic Research stuff. This is the second time I’ve seen an “explanation” from them regarding how a product is supposed to work that has big scientific words but doesn’t hang together if you know what the words mean.

 

The first time it happened (cables were the product) I mentioned it in a comment on Audiostream, and within a few days Synergistic had changed their website copy (in a rather cagey way) regarding what I pointed out.

 

IMO they are very marketing heavy.  So much so that I get that greasy car salesman feeling when listening to their founder talk.

[Speedskater]

While condemn is a very strong word, any provider that makes unsupported claims about a product that go against engineering and scientific knowledge will gather negative comments. Why would anyone waste their time and/or money on them?

[Jud]

48 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

While condemn is a very strong word, any provider that makes unsupported claims about a product that go against engineering and scientific knowledge will gather negative comments. Why would anyone waste their time and/or money on them?

 

I personally wouldn't.  However: I do know people who swear by some of their products, and someone once suggested to me that perhaps they do the "crazy talk" to prevent any potential competitors from learning how their products actually work.  So people have their opinions and beliefs, and while I can try to be helpful and give them what I believe is useful information, changing what they think isn't my job or necessarily my goal.  Again, I agree with you that I personally don't wish to waste my time with people who can't provide a believable explanation of how their product will work for me.

[Speedskater]

More likely it's to prevent people from learning that their product doesn't work.

Reverse engineering or analog audio and power line products is easy.

[Ralf11]

generally, there should be a mechanistic explanation of how something works

 

however, there are observable phenomena* for which no mechanistic explanation existed at the time

 

* I mean observable in the scientific sense - the best example is from epidemiology (sensu strictu) and led to septic systems and the flush toilet - the exact mechanism was discovered later:

 

https://www.coursera.org/learn/epidemiology/lecture/1mLjh/pioneers-of-epidemiology-history-continued

 

 

Today, we often use these techniques to discover geographic cancer clusters

[Johnseye]

3 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

IMO they are very marketing heavy.  So much so that I get that greasy car salesman feeling when listening to their founder talk.

 

Here's an example.  The owner explaining his products at Munich 2017.  There are several other videos on YouTube.  Note the Black Box and high frequency transducers "HFT"s on the wall or on the speakers.  It should be measurable and I'd love to see the measurements.  

 

"HFTs oscillate at high frequencies creating an energy field in your room that overpowers room vibrational distortions to correct phase and frequency interactions for harmonic balance in your treated room. You hear an increase in depth and width, with clearer more extended highs, and tighter bass."

 

 

 

 

Here's the link to the BlackBox with a video at the bottom of the page.

 

http://www.synergisticresearch.com/acoustics/passive/blackbox/

 

 

[Ralf11]

wow!

 

how does the magic box assess the spatial energy field in your room so it can achieve phase cancellation?

 

I think I will stick to tossing my Shakti Stones in the air.

[Johnseye]

4 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

wow!

 

how does the magic box assess the spatial energy field in your room so it can achieve phase cancellation?

 

I think I will stick to tossing my Shakti Stones in the air.

 

Need a shower after watching that? Greasy. 

[Ralf11]

With my Shakti Stones, I don't need showers any more.

[audio.bill]

Just as a point of clarification I happen to agree with most of the posts here regarding the SR products, along with their questionable marketing tactics and pitiful attempts to explain any 'science' behind them. I've heard several demos of their product and let's just say I've been less than impressed with any of it. I also agree that buyer beware definitely applies to many of the claims made in the high end audio tweak market. I don't however believe that such product marketing should prevent us from considering some other legitimate products that have solid engineering behind them and more importantly can demonstrate their sonic benefits in a subjective evaluation.

 

[michaelD]

I have been away for awhile so just catching up.  I read a lot of questioning how they work mostly from those that have done nothing but question how they work yet have put no effort in trying one or all of them out.  That's all great but the subject of the thread was to get comments from people who have actually tried and compared the various products be it Nordost Qkore, Entreq or SR etc.  I believe a couple of you were going to give it a try any comments from actual users not virtual ones?  Don't get me wrong it would be nice to know more how they work but in everyday life there are many things we use that we have really no idea yet we do -  is this any different if it sounds better do we really need to know more?

[Speedskater]

34 minutes ago, michaelD said:

 if it sounds better do we really need to know more?

Yes we do!

But the first question is:

Does it sound better or even different?

It's a question that is seldom answered.

[fas42]

Altering the grounding does make a difference - whether better or not will depend upon everything. A chap on another forum has discovered "extreme grounding", which is tying the chasses together with massive strands of copper, a whole "web" of the stuff. For him, it has meant major advances in quality, which I find quite apparent in the videos he's posted of playback of his system.

[Speedskater]

51 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Altering the grounding does make a difference - whether better or not will depend upon everything. A chap on another forum has discovered "extreme grounding", which is tying the chasses together with massive strands of copper, a whole "web" of the stuff. For him, it has meant major advances in quality, which I find quite apparent in the videos he's posted of playback of his system.

Yes, serious real grounding systems have been around for decades.

Just look up:

Grounding Systems

SRPP :: System Reference Potential Plane
STGP :: Signal Transport Ground Plane
ZSRG :: Zero Signal Reference Grid
ZSRG :: Zero Signal Reference Conductors
ZSRP :: Zero Signal Reference Potential
ZSRP :: Zero Signal Reference Plane
MESH-CBN :: Meshed Common Bonding Network
MESH-IBN :: Meshed Isolated Bonding Network
PEC :: Paralleled Earth Conductors
PBC :: Paralleled Bonding Conductors
 

[Ralf11]

Practical Grounding, Bonding, Shielding and Surge Protection

By G Vijayaraghavan, Mark Brown, Malcolm Barnes

[fas42]

The inherent weakness of how audio systems are typically assembled is that there is poor control of the grounding - but people want to play with all sorts of toys, so that's the way the industry has gone ... . If I had a dollar for every time people say, "I went to fully active speakers - and the SQ I'm getting now!!", well ...

 

Mostly by intent I have used extremely simple, minimal options setups - which automatically eliminates whole swathes of weaknesses. My first 'good' setup used a top notch CDP, with digital volume, directly driving a "monster" power amp - grounding wasn't such a critical issue.

[Speedskater]

Although Keith Armstrong prefers to call it a 'conductive structure' this is a serious grounding system:

 

It's a good article, start about half way down the page.

https://interferencetechnology.com/fundamentals-of-emc-design-our-products-are-trying-to-help-us-3/

[mekong56]

I see a lot of debate on technically how or why these units should or shouldn't work, so I just thought I would share my experience as a believer in the product, based purely on how it sounds in my system.

 

I demoed the Qkore 1 from my dealer last week. I had no idea of it's existence as a product yet until I walked in the store. I stopped in for other reasons. My standard question "what's new around here" led to a conversation about the Qkore units they had just recently gotten in. The salesman I was talking to has never steered me wrong and knows his stuff. I have demoed things in the past from him against his recommendation, and I always came back saying "you were right about that." He doesn't recommend spending money where he doesn't feel the return on investment is there (in my system). He was very enthusiastic about the Qkore units and was surprised how well the units actually worked when Nordost came in and demoed them in the store. I figured I had nothing to lose other than a weekend (which turned into a week) long home demo, and I never feel pressured into buying something I demo from them. I already am a fan of the Nordost power products. I already had a QB8, QX4, Qk1,QV2, and Sort Kone isolation devices. They are expensive, but I feel the performance is there. I am an all digital guy, no turntable in the system. 

 

Let me be clear - my expectations were nil, just plug it in and try it. I plugged the QKore1 into the grounding connection on my QB8. This how I would describe the effects after dropping it into my system:

 

1. System in general seems much quieter, i.e. less noise. As a result note decays and are longer, more harmonic detail and richness, slightly more detailed. Better image separation between instruments

2. Soundstage is more dimensional into the room (less flat)

3. A slight veil is lifted

4. Greater transparency with no loss in body. I had very good transparency before, but struggled with things getting too thin or threadbare sounding. Not so with the Qkore1 in place.

5. More natural sounding, especially in the highs. Cymbals are remarkably more detailed and delicate sounding. I am a drummer so I am often focused on this, but they just sound more like real cymbals.

6. Slightly more forward presentation

7. More natural sound across the board

 

It doesn't really change anything about the system, just makes it better across the board. I think all of the above is basically a function of less noise. I am not qualified to speak technically on what the unit is doing or how it is doing it, nor am I really going to worry about that. Don't care to debate the technicals. However, I knew within a day of listening that it's affect was substantial IN MY SYSTEM, and there was no way I was moving forward without one! I would suspect it will be system dependent upon each home's power and wiring infrastructure and grounding setup. I will say that it  was a much more substantial effect than when I dropped a QX4 into my system.

 

I REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO LIKE IT, because I was not planning on dropping the dough at this time, but dammit they got me...I purchased one. Do NOT want to listen without one :). Very happy with the results. In my opinion, it's a component that helps you get the best out of your system no matter what other component changes you make. Would love to try the Qkore6 but $5K ain't happening at this time.