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I've been a big fan of proper grounding of a system since actually doing it a few years ago.  My main power strip is a Nordost QB8 which has a very convenient ground lug.  I have attached to it a separate earth ground (different from my electrical box house ground) and to a Entreq Sliver Tellus using their Apollo wire.  This has been my setup for about 3 years now.  I was very please with the darkness of my background not only with nothing playing but within tracks/notes the silence where it was supposed to be was great. There are also improvements in the bass as well.   I never went the whole way with the Entreq box to ground other components of my system not sure why just never did.  Fast forward today I now have two demo Silver Tellus minimus each connected to my Bricasti M28 amps using Silver Eartha cables (connected is to the negative speaker terminal).  In-addition to my Silver Tellus I connected to a RCA input to both my Bricasti M1 DAC and Aurender N10 Atlantis using Apollo Eartha cables.   I just got it hooked up last night and for those that don't know it takes the Entreq products about a day to reach full potential.  So Tonight I plan on doing some listening to see if there are even greater improvements.

 

Also Nordost is coming out with a grounding box called QKore.  I should have a demo box here later next week as I want to compare.  They have some write up on how its constructed on their web site but its considerably smaller and lighter then the Entreq solution.  However I think the $$'s to spend may be similar.  From what I've read the Nordost solution is active right away so that will be helpful doing a compare. Both the Entreq and Nordost solutions are passive solutions.

 

I'm sure the cable crowd that thinks cables don't make a difference will jump all over this but infact proper grounding does indeed improve the listening experience. More on this later.

Edited by michaelD
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If separate earth ground is a stake in the garden, then it's very dangerous!

If on the other hand you mean an isolated ground system for the Protective Earth/Safety Ground wires to your audio equipment, then that can be good if:

a] If your AC power system uses metal conduit/tubing (either ridged) or other metal that the circuit boxes are in contact with.

b] All your system's isolated ground wires are joined together, before making the long run back to the main panel's Neutral bus.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Not connecting all Protective Earth/Safety Ground wires to the Neutral nus in the main panel defeats their purpose.

 

The connection to Planet Earth is not about day-to-day power quality, it's about safety in unusual circumstances.

 

It's a common misunderstanding in many areas of electricity that Earth will act as a sink or sump for bad electricity, but this is not at all true.

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4 hours ago, michaelD said:

I've been a big fan of proper grounding of a system since actually doing it a few years ago.  My main power strip is a Nordost QB8 which has a very convenient ground lug.  I have attached to it a separate earth ground (different from my electrical box house ground) and to a Entreq Sliver Tellus using their Apollo wire.  This has been my setup for about 3 years now.  I was very please with the darkness of my background not only with nothing playing but within tracks/notes the silence where it was supposed to be was great. There are also improvements in the bass as well.   I never went the whole way with the Entreq box to ground other components of my system not sure why just never did.  Fast forward today I now have two demo Silver Tellus minimus each connected to my Bricasti M28 amps using Silver Eartha cables (connected is to the negative speaker terminal).  In-addition to my Silver Tellus I connected to a RCA input to both my Bricasti M1 DAC and Aurender N10 Atlantis using Apollo Eartha cables.   I just got it hooked up last night and for those that don't know it takes the Entreq products about a day to reach full potential.  So Tonight I plan on doing some listening to see if there are even greater improvements.

 

Also Nordost is coming out with a grounding box called QKore.  I should have a demo box here later next week as I want to compare.  They have some write up on how its constructed on their web site but its considerably smaller and lighter then the Entreq solution.  However I think the $$'s to spend may be similar.  From what I've read the Nordost solution is active right away so that will be helpful doing a compare. Both the Entreq and Nordost solutions are passive solutions.

 

I'm sure the cable crowd that thinks cables don't make a difference will jump all over this but infact proper grounding does indeed improve the listening experience. More on this later.

 

I am also a big fan of external grounding and will surely follow your impressions with great interest! 😊

If you have a metal case network switch in your audio chain I would recommend you to try grounding it...if you have'nt done it already.

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Yes I will post info as I have time and I'm particularly interested in the compare.  As I want to do something but don't know which is the best at least for my system and situation.  

 

I do have a metal network switch I'm curious how you grounded it and why?  What effect did that have?

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42 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I am also a big fan of external grounding and will surely follow your impressions with great interest! 😊

If you have a metal case network switch in your audio chain I would recommend you to try grounding it...if you have'nt done it already.

 Yes would be interested in why you did this and what effect it has

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1 minute ago, michaelD said:

Yes I will post info as I have time and I'm particularly interested in the compare.  As I want to do something but don't know which is the best at least for my system and situation.  

 

I do have a metal network switch I'm curious how you grounded it and why?  What effect did that have?

 

I have two setups with grounded network switches. One with an AQVOX switch-8 and one with a D-Link DSG105 switch. Both have a GND screws in the back of the unit where I connect the external grounding to. I have tried almost any external grounding possible during the years, and grounding the network switch is IMO the optimal spot, followed by the router. As always with external grounding it makes everything sound natural and relaxed in a way that few other tweaks do.

 

Here is a picture of my latest grounding tweak with my AQVOX switch-8 where the red silver wire goes to my Entreq Minimus. 😊

 

IMG_5959.thumb.JPG.9187102dc195b514145b5adee5150376.JPG

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One important notice with external grounding is that the effect is reduced by isolating ICs and floating the AC/DC paths. I have actually used my Entreq Minimus as a kind of "noise sniffer" to find out where I'll need to isolate or float the ground. However, on network switches the improvements are still present with floating grounds and isolated ICs. 

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re: separate earth ground -- different from my electrical box house ground

 

I always thought failure to bring all grounds to the same... ah ground.. was a risk for creating a ground loop(??)

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26 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

re: separate earth ground -- different from my electrical box house ground

 

I always thought failure to bring all grounds to the same... ah ground.. was a risk for creating a ground loop(??)

 

If you use a grounding box with one connector (ex. Entreq Minimus) for two devices you risk creating a ground loop. That is why it is not recommended by the manufacturer. However, if you use a grounding box with several connectors (ex. Entreq Tellus) you are ok since it is in fact several isolated "boxes" in one (if you connect only one device to each connector). A grounding box should also separate analogue grounds and digital grounds since they tend to interfear with each other.

At best a grounding box should act as a low impedance end point (ie. with lower impedance than what can be found anywhere in your audio system)

Edited by Cornan
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If they are disconnecting the Safety Ground/Protective Earth connection in the main breaker box and instead making a separate connection to Mother Earth, then it's dangerous in two ways.

 

1] In the event of a Ground Fault (short circuit) the circuit breaker will not trip in a timely manor and may not trip at all.

 

2] In the event of a nearby lightning strike (1 km/ ½ mile) huge voltages may develop  between the two ground rod systems.

 

Safety rules require that all of a building electrical power be connected to the same grounding system. Different areas have different rules about these grounding systems.

 

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3 hours ago, marce said:

All you are doing is adding a dipole to your system Grounds with these boxes...

 

Yes, at best all an Entreq box does is add a noise/interference antenna.

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3 hours ago, Speedskater said:

If they are disconnecting the Safety Ground/Protective Earth connection in the main breaker box and instead making a separate connection to Mother Earth, then it's dangerous in two ways.

 

1] In the event of a Ground Fault (short circuit) the circuit breaker will not trip in a timely manor and may not trip at all.

 

2] In the event of a nearby lightning strike (1 km/ ½ mile) huge voltages may develop  between the two ground rod systems.

 

Safety rules require that all of a building electrical power be connected to the same grounding system. Different areas have different rules about these grounding systems.

 

 

Sorry, but your post shows just how much you know about grounding boxes. Grounding boxes have absolutely nothing to do about safety ground. No one is going to rip out their safety ground or ground rod and replace it with a grounding box. It is not their purpose. Grounding on equipment is just a 0v reference point. Think about batteries and think about airplaines. They work just fine without safety ground. The ground reference point is just the difference between + and -. Grounding boxes are effective to reduce shield interfearences, static electricity, high frequency noises, leakage loops, ground loops etc in cables, chassis, equipment ground planes, AC mains etc.

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5 minutes ago, Cornan said:

Grounding boxes are...

 

Sorry, but I just can't agree that the 'boxes' you are talking about, have anything at all to do with 'grounding'. If I have it correct, they only have one wire connected to them, therefore they are Not part of any circuit I understand. I have yet to see any rationale for what they are supposed to do. And, if they somehow encourage anyone to substitute one of these mystery boxes for a proper wire to a real earth ground connection, they could be dangerous.

 

So, until I see some reasonable explanation for what possible effect they may have (other then depleting your wallet) I will continue to classify them as improbable 'magic'.

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3 minutes ago, Daudio said:

 

Sorry, but I just can't agree that the 'boxes' you are talking about, have anything at all to do with 'grounding'. If I have it correct, they only have one wire connected to them, therefore they are Not part of any circuit I understand. I have yet to see any rationale for what they are supposed to do. And, if they somehow encourage anyone to substitute one of these mystery boxes for a proper wire to a real earth ground connection, they could be dangerous.

 

So, until I see some reasonable explanation for what possible effect they may have (other then depleting your wallet) I will continue to classify them as improbable 'magic'.

 

The best way to know if they improve things or not is to try it out. Here is one reasonable priced one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222478045137 for that adventure! 😉

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33 minutes ago, Cornan said:

Here is a review with some good info for those who want to learn! 😊

 

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/entreq.htm

 

Just normal dealer salesmanship, nothing illuminating about how they are supposed to actually affect audio circuits. Nothing to see here, move along...

 

 

18 minutes ago, Cornan said:

try it out

 

I don't have the enthusiasm, money, or suggestibility to bother with these things. I have also passed on Mipingo Stones (sp?), Quantum Dots, and suchlike.

 

Still waiting for any real discussion of what these disconnected 'black' boxes really do (or do not). Very nice woodwork through  :)

 

Perhaps we could call them 'Dirt Boxes' :P, rather then falsely labeling them as having anything to do with circuit grounding ?

 

 

Edited by Daudio
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19 minutes ago, Daudio said:

I don't have the enthusiasm, money, or suggestibility to bother with these things.

Then grounding boxes is clearly nothing for you! 😁

 

19 minutes ago, Daudio said:

Perhaps we could call them 'Dirt Boxes' :P, rather then falsely labeling them as having anything to do with circuit grounding ?

It would be perfectly fine with me, since it is more or less what they do. Collect dirt from grounding paths. Not a very sellable name for it though! 😁 (Slogan: It is a dirty job, but someone got to do it)

Edited by Cornan
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4 minutes ago, Cornan said:

Then grounding boxes is clearly nothing for you! 😁

 

Fair enough. But since this is a thread on Grounding, I'm still interested in any theoretical or technical info, pro or con, on these... 'products'.

 

It would be great if John Swenson would chime in here !

 

 

p.s.  My service box has two good earth connections, installed by Detroit Edison professionals.

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26 minutes ago, Daudio said:

 

Fair enough. But since this is a thread on Grounding, I'm still interested in any theoretical or technical info, pro or con, on these... 'products'.

 

It would be great if John Swenson would chime in here !

 

 

p.s.  My service box has two good earth connections, installed by Detroit Edison professionals.

 

I am afraid that grounding boxes is something you'll have to try to appreciate what they'll do for sq. The more you isolate the paths (ICs, AC, DC & ground) the less important they'll get. However, if you for example are using shielded cables somewhere us your setup you will most likely gain using a grounding box. I have read a LOT about grounding boxes, quartz stones, tourmaline stones, piezo-electricity, pyro-electricity, negative ions, impedance, battery grounding etc etc during the years and still have'nt seen any technical info or hard facts regarding the grounding boxes. They are all theories, but theories that work. Grounding boxes is not something new. They have been around for ages in Japan (apparently to cure bad electrical mains wiring). It is just the last 8-10 years they have found a place in audio equipments. Whatever I will say to you it is just theories based on theories, but I know they work wonders in any setup as long as you have enough enthusiasm to experiment with them. I started my journey by building them myself, but my efforts (which where promising at the time) was never close to the real deal.

 

BTW. Here is a good starting point if you like DIY 

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/12/entreq-tellus-passive-ground-system.html

 

Edited by Cornan
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2 hours ago, Cornan said:

Here is a review with some good info for those who want to learn! 😊

 

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/entreq.htm

 

Here is some info about ground reference

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/104222/where-is-the-ground-in-a-simple-electronic-circuit

 

Yes I have actually read the Audio Beat one several times there is a lot of info in it.  I was particularly interested in the comments about the Nordost QB8 ground lug, earth ground and how that figured into the setup.  Since I have that particular device and earth ground it was most helpful.

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2 hours ago, Cornan said:

BTW. Here is a good starting point if you like DIY 

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/12/entreq-tellus-passive-ground-system.html

 

Copper rods, brass and aluminium (?) strips, filled with what looks to me to be activated charcoal, in a plywood box. OK, so what ? And all for only $2000  :)

 

Sorry but I can't accept your/their listening impressions, because I can't trace them to ears I know and respect. It's not that I dismiss them, just can't verify them to a meaningful chain of evidence for me.

 

Edited by Daudio
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6 minutes ago, Daudio said:

 

Copper rods, brass and aluminium (?) strips, filled with what looks to me to be activated charcoal, in a plywood box. OK, so what ? And all for only $2000  :)

 

Sorry but I can't accept your/their listening impressions, because I can't trace them to ears I know and respect. It's not that I dismiss them, just can't verify them to a meaningful chain of evidence for me.

 

 

Fair enough, but I know what you are missing out! 😊

BTW. There is cheaper options out there and buy 5kg tourmaline sand, pure copper, pure silver, a good plug and a nice box for DIY attempts ain't cheap either! 😉

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15 minutes ago, Daudio said:

 

Copper rods, brass and aluminium (?) strips, filled with what looks to me to be activated charcoal, in a plywood box. OK, so what ? And all for only $2000  :)

 

Sorry but I can't accept your/their listening impressions, because I can't trace them to ears I know and respect. It's not that I dismiss them, just can't verify them to a meaningful chain of evidence for me.

 

Well if you don't want to beleive in the benefits of grounding, it's your choice. This is a forum to share our knowledge and experience and other memebers can learn and try in their own systems. Some times it works and sometimes it doesn't so an open mind mentality helps here.

 

No need to invest in Entreq or Nordost expensive devices at all.

I got my self the cheap one from eBay and after trying it with my music PC, I ordered 3 more.  My PC, ethernet switch and amp benefited the most. Lower noise floor, more transparency and wider sound stage.

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18 minutes ago, mozes said:

Well if you don't want to beleive in the benefits of grounding

 

Oh, I certainly believe in grounding ! I just do not believe these 'boxes' are grounds.

 

There is no circuit, and that is what I can't get beyond. If there was some kind of electrostatic charge from these materials, I wouldn't think it would have enough energy to affect anything at audio levels, or if it does, I'd think some big-money battery companies would be jumping all over it !

 

I've been an audiophile long enough to be open minded about a lot of odd things, so perhaps there is an audible effect. But I can't in clear concious call it 'Grounding'. Maybe it is some other effect  ?

 

Oh and, I'm not trying to rain on your hobby, but I would very much like to understand this thing better.

 

 

Edited by Daudio
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