NAD M50.2 compatibles?

[DrDetroit]

Hi Peter, 

 

My principal playback scenario would be to use either the NAD or the Vault as a streamer for Tidal to play their MQA tracks.  I'd be using an external DAC for either of the players.  Since I have a large collection of classical CDs, I was thinking of using one of the professional ripping services that specializes in classical music to ensure proper tagging.   I'd then transfer to the NAD/Vault.

 

In auditioning the NAD, were you able to try the USB ports for output to a DAC?  I read the spec sheet and I have the sense that the NAD only uses the SPDIF connections and does not  output to a DAC via USB.  If so, that would be another indication that NAD has not customized the BluOS, since the Vault shares the same limitation.

[Hear Here]

So you'd be using the Vault as a streamer as well as a NAS, but you wouldn't be using its DAC or volume control.  That would put it closer to the M50.2 if you used the 2 products in the same way, though the latter should still sound better.

 

The M50.2 has the usual RCA and Toslink digital outputs, but also an AEB and an HDMI output.  There are also 2 USB sockets but these seem to be just for use with external HDs or USB sticks.  Although the worthless user manual doesn't say what these can be used for, one assumes that they can also be used for backing up from the built in hard drives.  Whether they can be used for what you want I don't know.  I would use the AEB to connect to a DAC.

[DrDetroit]

Peter, 

 

That's my sense as well.  Although the NAD's a nice-looking rig, I don't get the sense that sound performance would be worth the enormous price premium for streaming to an external DAC.

 

 Speaking of price, the OP mentioned a Melco as an option, and I just saw one this morning on eBay for (I think) $1199.  Throw in a Node or an Aries streamer and you have a nice--if somewhat clunky--setup for less than half the cost of the NAD. 

[Hear Here]

I think I'll wait to see if NAD comes up with improved firm / software for the M50.2.  Otherwise I'd be looking for a ripping NAS or a Melco plus USB CD drive, and a stand alone CD player or transport. I've been seriously trying to reduce my box and cable count!   

 

By coincidence I looked at Ebay and found the new 2 x 2 TB Melco N1A listed with a big discount from list price.  I phoned the supplier who's offering them and learnt that a Mark 2 is now available, so dealers are disposing of Mk 1 stock.  In UK they're asking £1495 (or make an offer) for this 4TB model - a lot more than your $1200!  The dealer said that, if you use it as a streamer by taking the USB signal to your DAC, the Melco is very good - and probably better than the Vault 2.  If you use it as a fancy NAS (as I would because I have the BluOS module in  my M32), the improvement over any other audio specific NAS (eg RipNAS, Zone Ripper, Innuos, etc) is likely to be minimal.

 

Peter

[DrDetroit]

I can understand the desire to keep clutter to a minimum, which is why I considered the NAD M50.2 is the first place (sure looks nice!).  I actually have an essentially new SOtM sMS-1000d sitting in my closet, that I recently purchased cheap ($1000) from US Audio Mart.  It has a 2TB drive , a built-in CD burner, and a well-regarded streaming module.   Unfortunately, I found the streaming module for Tidal /Spotify to be a bit fatiguing (I have hyper-sensitive ears), so I went back to BS Node because I found the sound to be more laid-back.  But I suppose there's no reason I couldn't use the SOtM as ripper/storage controlled via the BS Node.  If not, I'd be glad to unload to anyone here for a good price.

[randyhat]

Reading through this thread there seems to be a re-occuring affirmation that the modest Bluesound Node and Vault are really decent performers...not just for their price, but on an absolute scale.  Our audiophile instincts tell us that components in this price range must obviously be inferior to higher priced, overbuilt and better engineered components....and maybe this is so but as I sit and listen to my Node 2 I wonder how much better do I want my system to sound, and at what cost? I mentioned in a previous post that I will be moving my Node to a second system in a new addition to our house so I am looking to replace the streamer/DAC in my main system.  The one I have had my eye on for some time is the Aurender A10.  It has the simplicity I am looking for; a built in DAC and a built in hard drive, is MQA ready (though not a deal breaker)....but I am left wondering if the $5000 difference between the A10 and just buying another Node 2 will yield noticeable, not to mention significant improvement in my system.  The law of diminishing returns seems to be invoked much earlier with digital products of this type than with most other audio components. The Bluesound products sound much better than they have a right to, based upon their price.  They offer a lot of value.

[DrDetroit]

Randyhat,

 

I agree, there's no question that the Node 2 is an extraordinarily good value for $500,  However, I would not dismiss the A10.  I haven't heard it yet, but I can tell you that I auditioned a PS Audio DirectStream Junior and its MQA playback was far superior to the Node 2, both in comparison with the Node's internal DAC and with outputting the Node to my MHDT Havana (non-MQA).   I would have kept the PS Audio, were it not for the fact that its MQA playback is hostage to an unstable third-party controller app called MConnect.     That's why I'm interested in the A10: full hardware decoding of MQA, with a good controller app.  Though I think the Aurender lacks the full list of streaming services that are built in the BLuOS. 

 

Price-wise, it might make sense just to go with a Node/Vault outputted to a Brooklyn DAC+.   I imagine that with the updated Brooklyn dac that was released yesterday, that the old stock might also be found at a generous discount.  

[DrDetroit]

Randyhat,

 

Let me supplement my last post.  Aside from the PS Audio, I have tried two other streamer/DAC combos for MQA playback in roughly the same price territory as the Aurender A10.  I auditioned both the Lumin T1 and the Cary DMS-500.  With the caveat that neither of  the DACS were  completely burned in (75-100 hrs), I found them both to  be more resolving than the Node, but not that compellingly so as to warrant the price differential--so your original point holds.  Plus, my hypersensitive ears found them both to be fatiguing on a lot of the non-MQA playback.   As to sound quality, the PS Audio was in a different league altogether, but it's also based on a very different set of design principles from most DACS.

[Hear Here]

Can anyone here help?

 

Someone recently said that connecting a TV to the HDMI output from the M50.2 allowed the LED screen information (often CD artwork) to be displayed in high quality.

 

Today I took delivery of an M32 amplifier fitted with an HDMI module.  I anticipated that I could similarly see the LED display on my TV screen.  Sadly I don't get anything.  Can anyone advise?  Can settings be changed to activate HDMI output or am I misguided in thinking that the M32's screen can be seen on an attached TV in the same way an M50.2's screen can?

 

Thanks

[Hear Here]

On ‎09‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 9:08 PM, Vangelis said:

Anyone compared the new. NAD M50.2 to Aurender or Melco player/servers?

 

Going back to the original question asking about M50.2 compatibles (mentioning the the Aurender and Melco), I think we have established that those 2 machines offer only a fraction the features of the NAD, but do their jobs extremely well no doubt.

 

However if you want virtually all the features of the NAD in one box, the only alternative that I've found is the Metronome Music Centre.  Many others will offer most features (CD rip, hard drive storage, radio and streamer) but the Metronome seems to share the unusual feature of being able to play a CD without ripping it first.  However it's well over 3 times the price of the 50.2 in UK, but may be worth investigating if budget allows.

 

http://www.metronome.audio/index.php/en/metronome-range/server-music-audio

 

I'd be interested if anyone comes up with anything else that offers these 5 features.

 

 

[DrDetroit]

Hi Peter, 

 

I'm starting to rethink my options.  I've got pretty bad fatigue issues and just had a painful  audition this week with an older model Aqua La Scale DAC feeding off of my Node 2.   However, by taking the external DAC out of the equation, and using the Node 2's  own internal DAC,  I had a much less fatiguing experience.  So now I'm wondering about if there's any advantage to upgrading from the Node 2 to the NAD M12 as a streamer/DAC combo. You mentioned in a prior post that you have the NAD M12 with the BluOS module.  How does it sound?  Have you compared it to the Node as a streamer/DAC combo?

 

[Hear Here]

I've not compared the M12 with the Node 2, but I will say that the M12 is an exceptional digital preamp - DAC plus digital and analogue preamp.  The DAC is better than the one in my Mark Levinson 390S, but it's much newer technology of course.  The M12 can be made a streamer by simply adding a BluOS module into one of its expansion bays and you could add the HDMI module too if you needed this.

 

The sound quality is very good indeed and there are all sorts of things that can be altered in the Setup facility.  Tone controls in analogue preamps were rightly ousted from hi-fi many years ago, but changes in treble and bass curves can be achieved in the digital domain with no adverse effect on sound.  I find the flat settings are good in my system, so I have the  Off switch engages.  However if I switch to On, I have a lower bass curve which suits me if I want to play loud late at night and don't want to upset my neighbours!  This achieved easily from the touch screen panel. 

 

Standard inputs include vinyl (MM or MC), balanced and SE analogue and digital includes AEB, 2 x RCA and 2 x Toslink.  There are a number of USB sockets but I've never used these.  All inputs can be re-labelled (eg from Coax 1 to CD Player) and any unused inputs can be de-activated so your remote bypasses them.   If you use a sub, the M12 can become virtually an active crossover as you can cut off the main speaker's low frequencies (allowing greater volume settings) and the sub's cut off frequency, as well as it's relative volume..  The supplied remote is fabulous in its construction and flexibility,  It can control numerous devices and virtually any button can have its use changed.

 

If you have the BluOS module fitted, it behaves just like any other fully-fledged streamer with access to internet radio, Tidal, Amazon Music etc, as well as taking music from your NAS or PC (or attached MP3 player I presume).  I have never experienced any dropout or other defect in the music from these sources, but I don't use wireless apart from control.  The NAS and M12 are hard wired to my network.

 

If I hadn't been so totally happy with the M12, I wouldn't have considered the M32 purchase.  The latter has most of the M12's inputs, but no balanced analogue unless you add a module.  M12 is brilliant!

 

 

[DrDetroit]

Hi Peter,

 

As always, thank you for your very thoughtful response!  As I was reading your post, it made me recall a fundamental point about the M12, namely, that the BluOS is an optional module, and that the DAC portion of the unit preceded the partnership with BlueSound by a couple of years.  I believe that the M12's digital processor was inherited from the old M51, a highly-touted component with a Stereophile A+  ranking.  If that's the case, the DAC in the M12 is separate from its BluOS module and would not have the same digital processor (or decoding principles) as that found in the Node 2's DAC.  I say this, because I enjoyed the non-fatiguing signature of the Node 2's DAC, and was hoping that the NAD M12 would provide more of the same "house sound," but perhaps with a bit more resolution and deeper bass.  However, that's not likely to be the case since I'd need to start first with the M12's pre-existing processor and evaluate it on its own terms.  Hence, it would probably be better for me to conceive of the NAD M12 as an "external" DAC that happens to share the same chassis as the streaming  module.  This does raise an interesting question (previously mentioned re the M50.2)) of just how the M12 handles MQA playback, since it now seems more likely that the BluOS does a software unfolding without  the NAD adding in any hardware decoding.

 

Cheers,

 

Stuart

 

 

 

[DrDetroit]

Hi Folks, 

 

We finally have a review of the NAD M50.2 by an established source in the December print edition of Stereophile.  It arrived in my mailbox yesterday, but I don't know how long before the current issue appears online.  John Atkinson's the reviewer and it follows the typical Stereophile format, except that the usual benchmark measurement graphs, referenced in passing in the text of the review itself, were for some reason not included in the print edition.

 

In general, it's a a favorable review, but not overly so.  You'd have to compare it to other reviews by Atkinson to get a sense of how he describes components that really impress him.   There's no real description of the sound signature of the M50.2, but instead, he focuses on the MQA controversy and concludes that the functionality of the NAD makes it attractively priced in comparison with more expensive servers such as the Aurender.  

[Nuz1]

I read the review as well and have to admit I was also hoping for more discussion of the sound quality and comparison to other servers. 

 

The positives that I took out of the article was a comment that the unit had "...sound quality indistinguishable from my other servers."   You had to read to the end to see that the other servers he was referring to included the Aurender N10 and Antipodes DX Reference.  

 

Another positive was: "DSD playback is promised by the end of this year."  That's a positive step for the M50.2.   But I wasn't sure what to make of his later assumption that the promised update will allow DSD  playback using Roon and a network connected DAC.  I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusions, so I'll wait to read about the update and see what NAD and (hopefully) Bluesound do in regards to DSD.

 

I haven't read enough of Atkinson's reviews to know "how he describes components that really impress him" as referenced in the post above.   He mentions the functionality and that everything worked as supposed to.   I get the impression that he thinks the hardware is a good alternative and price point compared to other music servers but didn't like the BluOs app as well as other controllers.  

 

I will also offer that I was able to demo the M50.2 last week at a dealer in Minneapolis.   They had only had the M50.2 in stock for about a week and it was connected to Ayre Acoustics equipment and large Wilson speakers.  The store was impressed with the sound and functionality of the M50.2 but hadn't yet compared it side by side to the Aurender N100 that they had in another room.   It was my first time using the BluOs app.  I found it a little clunky compared to my Squeezepad/LMS system that I'm used to and not quite as intuitive as Aurender's Conductor app that I've tried on other demos.   But I'll chalk that up to being unfamiliar with the app and the amount of function and flexibility built into it.  I will say the M50.2 worked flawlessly and streamed Tidal well.   We easily grouped/un-grouped the large system with other NAD Masters equipment and BlueSound speakers that was in the store.     I came away impressed.   

[DrDetroit]

Nuz1,

 

Glad to hear that you read the review and also that you've had a chance to audition to the M50.2.

 

I gather that I'm one of the few people who like the BluOS and what I particularly enjoy about my Node 2--because it's missing from so many other controllers--is that there's a Web version you can operate via your computer.  I run the program off of my laptop, which I find far less clunky than searching for music via a tablet.  

 

DSD support is interesting, but I agree we'll need to learn more details.  My recollection is that the USB port on the BluOS devices is not a source output, so they'll either have to do PCM conversion over the SPDIF connections or they'll feed the signal over a networked DAC as you mentioned.  I'm wondering how many standalone networked DACS there are (without their own internal streaming systems).   

 

John Atkinson's archive of reviews can be found at the following link, and not having done a detailed comparison, I can only say that it seems to lack the enthusiasm and superlatives that generally accompany a "positive" review (FWIW).   Although he mentions the  NAD's sound quality is "indistinguishable"  from the Aurender and the Antipodes, I would like to know if it's distinguishable from the Vault 2.  Again, I suspect that the BluOS system might be the determining factor in the  NAD's sound signature,  and if so, whether it warrants the $2700 price premium over the Vault 2.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/writer/83

  

 

 

[Nuz1]

I'm sure any "clunkiness" I mention about the BluOs app is due to my first time use and not enough instruction.   I've been running Squeezepad and LMS for so long, it's second nature.   It's really too bad that Logitech killed that product line instead of expanding it as it was really ahead of its time.   

 

You're right, the USB port on the M50.2 is not an output.   So I'll be interested to see how NAD/Bluesound implement DSD.   I know Bryston BDP streamers started the same way.  However, Bryston reprogrammed via a firmware update in order to implement DSD (via DoP, I believe) from one of the existing USB ports.  Personally, I don't know if DSD is a big issue to me as I don't have DSD capabilities now. 

 

My goal for my next purchase is to have a quality server as the basis for a whole home system.  One option is to keep my NAS and add a Roon Nucleus or a NUC to allow for different endpoint options.   However, the M50.2 combined with Bluesound and NAD's line of custom install products accomplishes everything that I'm after in one ecosystem and gives me later options of Roon, Control4, etcif needed.   I'm probably over-analyzing things.    But with a mix of Apple, Sonos and LMS products in the house, I also want to simplify operation for the family and at the same time make sure I'm buying into an ecosystem that will be around for a long time.   

 

And you're right, I hope the price difference is worth it.   Given the reviews I've read of the Aurender, I'd be thrilled to get the sound quality of an Aurender N10 for the cost of the M50.2.   Even better if I can do it for less.   But I'll also be disappointed if I splurge for either of those servers or an Auralic Aries G2 and then don't hear any difference from my Logitech Touch connected to the dac in my pre-amp.   

 

Thanks for the link to Atkinson's other reviews.  I'll look through them and then read the M50.2 review again in order to make a better comparison.  

 

 

 

1 hour ago, DrDetroit said:

Nuz1,

 

Glad to hear that you read the review and also that you've had a chance to audition to the M50.2.

 

I gather that I'm one of the few people who like the BluOS and what I particularly enjoy about my Node 2--because it's missing from so many other controllers--is that there's a Web version you can operate via your computer.  I run the program off of my laptop, which I find far less clunky than searching for music via a tablet.  

 

DSD support is interesting, but I agree we'll need to learn more details.  My recollection is that the USB port on the BluOS devices is not a source output, so they'll either have to do PCM conversion over the SPDIF connections or they'll feed the signal over a networked DAC as you mentioned.  I'm wondering how many standalone networked DACS there are (without their own internal streaming systems).   

 

John Atkinson's archive of reviews can be found at the following link, and not having done a detailed comparison, I can only say that it seems to lack the enthusiasm and superlatives that generally accompany a "positive" review (FWIW).   Although he mentions the  NAD's sound quality is "indistinguishable"  from the Aurender and the Antipodes, I would like to know if it's distinguishable from the Vault 2.  Again, I suspect that the BluOS system might be the determining factor in the  NAD's sound signature,  and if so, whether it warrants the $2700 price premium over the Vault 2.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/writer/83

  

 

 

[Hear Here]

I look forward to reading this Stereophile review online, hopefully soon. 

 

I had an M50.2 on loan for a few days and generally liked it enormously.  Regarding quality compared with its competitors, I can't imagine there would be a scrap of difference as this device does no signal processing.  It merely accesses music files from its own hard drive or a service such as Tidal and sends this to the external DAC.  As long as it does that job properly, the result should (as John Atkinson seems to suggest) be identical.  Certainly I found it exceptionally good used with the M32.

 

I did have a few criticisms about how it operated, in particular that you can't simply "play" a CD without having to coax an app into use first  You'd think that if you've just inserted a CD and press the Play button on the remote (supplied with M12 and M32), the M50.2 would assume you wanted to play it.  No, it insists that you first open an app and answer the question - Rip or Play?  Therefore it takes a full minute (assuming your PC is already booted) to get a CD actually playing.  I've put this to NAD as it could be remedied by firmware update and they have passed the idea to their development team. 

 

I would also like to see it offered in SDD or HD versions.  The former would be even more reliable and dead silent as there are no moving parts whatsoever.  I'd also like to see a User Guide rather than the pathetic excuse for the online one offered.  That is simply a guide to the front and back panel features - nothing else whatsoever - disgraceful for a company such as NAD and particularly so since their manuals for the M12 and M32 are pretty comprehensive.

 

There's better news regarding the BluOS software.  There is some crankiness that could easily be improved.  I've spelt out to Bluesound some suggestions and they have said that some of these WILL be incorporated in future updates.  I'm getting used to these shortcomings and I too much prefer to use the Windows app, as I find the Android version on a phone screen virtually impossible to get to grips with, although I'm sure a 14 year old could do so with his eyes shut!  In fact I resisted moving on from my Sonos because its user interface was so much better than any other I had tried - from Linn, Naim, etc.  BluOS has a lot in common with Sonos, but just not quite as good.  I really hope they get there eventually.

 

I'm currently looking for a used M50.2 and have made a bid for one but it's 3 countries away from where I live!  Update to follow!

[DrDetroit]

Nuz1,

 

I own the Logitech Squeezebox Touch and do consider it a very nice unit, but have replaced it in my system with the Node 2, which features MQA support.  I did purchase another LMS-capable device, an SOTM sms-1000d  streamer/server/ripper.  I replaced the default Vortex box software on it with the more configurable Daphile, but found the SOTM's sound to be a bit too detailed and fatiguing for my sensitive ears.  The SOTM now sits in my closet;, and one day I'll unload it.  Like you, I'm still looking at viable one-box solutions.  I know that Wyred-4-Sound is coming out with  new servers, though their storage capacity options look a bit small.

 

Peter, I understand the point about the limited role that a streamer plays, insofar as no signal processing is performed. But I do hear differences among various streamer brands (at least from a fatigue perspective that make some unlistenable to me, such as the SOTM).  And if indeed they all pretty much "sound the same,"  then I would have a difficult time justifying the price premium for the NAD M50.2 over the BlueSound Vault 2.   All that aside, I'm still very interested in the NAD, but if Nuz1 is correct about the future DSD limitations, it wouldn't let me play the DSD files extracted from SACD collection, as I don't have a networked DAC. 

[Hear Here]

>   And if indeed they all pretty much "sound the same,"  then I would have a difficult time justifying the price premium for the NAD M50.2 over the BlueSound Vault 2. 

 

For me, the principle advantages of the M50.2 over the Vault 2 is that you can play a CD in the NAD but not in the Vault.  Also you have hard drive backup security as the NAD has twin RAID drives.  If you have an M12 or M32, the supplied remote will operate many of the M50.2 features. 

 

Whether you think these are worth paying the extra for rather depends on your routine for external backing up (I'm pretty negligent in doing this) and your need for a good CD player.  I have just sold my Mark Levinson CDP, so need a replacement of good quality - the M50.2 offers this and I have £1500 from the ML sale to fund the extra cost of the M50.2!  Peter

[Nuz1]

I was looking for more reviews of the M50.2 and found this review from last April.   It's not in English, but google translator works pretty well.   M50.2 review  

[DrDetroit]

Nuz1,

 

Thanks for the nice lead on the Dutch-language review of the M50.2!  The interior photos alone make this definitely worth a look..   

I'm still very interested in the NAD, especially as the new Metrum Onyx Dac I have on order will be upgradable to MQA playback.

[Hear Here]

The review is pretty thorough but perhaps too critical of its price.  They compare it with the old M50.  It should be compared with the M50 plus M52 - about the same price and better in all respects as they established.

 

They also criticise some of its operational stupidity, in particular its reluctance to simply play the CD that you've just inserted.  I have made exactly the same observation to NAD and hopefully they'll fix it through software upgrade.  The comment "There are a lot of activities to play a simple CD" sums it up.  One should be able to press the Play icon on the LED and expect it to play - not rocket science!

 

They mention the feet and I rather agree - all current M series have 4 feet that are pointed cones sitting on magnetic shoes.  All very nice but if your stand is not 100% flat it wobbles.  My interpretation is that the feet can't be adjusted and I haven't tried to do so because my stone base is flat.  They suggest 3 feet instead of 4 - they never wobble!

 

BluOS is credited as amongst the best user interface (I agree) but has a few problems - also fixable by software updates.

 

I do agree that the lack of a DAC, or even the option of a DAC module is a shame - all suggested to NAD.  There are module bays in the M series and it would be nice if the M50.2 could have a DAC module fitted.  Since the other modules are more front-end related, I wonder if a "back-end" DAC module is possible with the existing internal fixed contacts.  If such a module were available, all that would be needed is an amp of choice.

 

Buck-up NAD and get these minor operational fixes done!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nuz1]

Now that we're finding a few reviews and articles, it's interesting how some of the dislikes are mentioned multiple times--like cd playback requiring use of the app.    I'm pleased that all of the comments about sound quality appear to be very complimentary.   

 

I thought this article was interesting in that it mentions the location of the hard drives as underneath the mother board.  So swapping out a hard drive may not be an easy task if/when one goes bad.   I don't know if that's a big issue but hard drives do fail.   So that would likely mean a trip to the service center instead of quickly swapping a hard drive like you can do in other servers like Auralic or Bryston.  

 

That's not a deal breaker for me.  Just an interesting side note.  

 

I think I'll wait until I see how DSD is implemented across NAD and Bluesound.   For me, that will likely be the deciding factor between getting an M50.2 vs. Auralic Aries G2 or a Lumin.  

[Hear Here]

9 minutes ago, Nuz1 said:

I thought this article was interesting in that it mentions the location of the hard drives as underneath the mother board.  So swapping out a hard drive may not be an easy task if/when one goes bad.   I don't know if that's a big issue but hard drives do fail.   So that would likely mean a trip to the service center instead of quickly swapping a hard drive like you can do in other servers like Auralic or Bryston.  

 

Yes I noticed that too.  When I questioning NAD about the alternative of SSD in place of HD, their response was that the HDs used are deliberately slow running and the most reliable and quietest available.  I had suggested that they supply to their dealers an "empty" version of M50.2 and the appropriate HDs and SDDs that could be specified by customers. - as does Naim with their Uniti Core.   Perhaps they defended their choice of only HDs because they are awkward to install!

 

I hope to get my M50.2 in a week or so.