Stradivarius vs modern violins again

[esldude]

http://www.thestrad.com/players-fav...old-in-largest-ever-blind-testing-experiment/

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/05/02/1619443114.abstract

This report has some sample audio of the violins.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...arius-violin-easier-to-hear-science-says-nope

 

[STC]

Somehow, I picked the Strad in violin tests as preferred sound not necessarily because it was a Strad. Anyone else?

[esldude]

Yes, same here.  I preferred the Strad.  I listened to the broadcast and didn't know which was which and I liked the Strad.

[plissken]

Both were close and I don't know if I could do it blind but I think the new violin had better bottom end. But that could be the attack by the violinist. 

 

I would want several samples. 

 

Certainly no 'Readily Apparent", "Easily Discernable", "Night and Day" differences as far I understand the meaning of those phrases that I see bandied about to mean. 

[STC]

I don't even know how a Strad sounds like. Out of the two samples I preferred the second which turned out to be Strad. So it probably just a lucky guess or just my preference. 

[sphinxsix]

In short the sound of Stradivarius is usually more full-bodied, less thin than most modern violins IMO.

It's a little like 24bit vs 16bit (analogue vs redbook if you prefer)

I've watched a BBC documentary some years ago on why Strads sound like they do. The conclusion was (as far as I know the most convincing theory nowadays) :

http://web.utk.edu/~grissino/downloads/burckle-grissino-mayer-2003.pdf

 

[GUTB]

That article says listeners preferred the newer instruments because they "projected" more, which people tend to prefer.

 

Wouldn't newer ones be better all round with computer design tools and modern construction technology?

[gzubeck]

18 hours ago, STC said:

Somehow, I picked the Strad in violin tests as preferred sound not necessarily because it was a Strad. Anyone else?

Yes, I can definitely hear the difference. The strads have that haunting violin resonance and decay that the modern equivalents do not. Sort of that aftertaste in your mouth after really good alcohol. 

[gzubeck]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

That article says listeners preferred the newer instruments because they "projected" more, which people tend to prefer.

 

Wouldn't newer ones be better all round with computer design tools and modern construction technology?

Just like modern concrete is better than roman concrete...two thousand years and still going strong. I think with the combination of modern computer analysis plus skilled hand made craftsmanship you can reproduce something close enough to a strad. First they need to figure it out.

[gmgraves]

33 minutes ago, gzubeck said:

Just like modern concrete is better than roman concrete...two thousand years and still going strong. I think with the combination of modern computer analysis plus skilled hand made craftsmanship you can reproduce something close enough to a strad. First they need to figure it out.

I heard a string quartet on WCRB, Boston, a couple of years ago where all the players were playing carbon-fiber instruments (violin, cello, viola, bass viol) from the Boston firm of Luis and Clarke. The violinist said that they decided to try the carbon-fiber instruments, because they travelled so much on aircraft from gig to gig, that it was getting really expensive, having to book two seats each; one for themselves and one for their instruments. Wooden string instruments have to acliamatize to a new environment, and cannot be carried in a luggage hold because they are generally neither pressurized nor heated. The folks at Luis and  Clarke assured them that the carbon-fiber instruments were absolutely 100% temperature and humidity stable. The firm let them borrow a set of instruments to try. They were all skeptical because all of their wooden viols were very expensive European instruments, mostly Italian. The speaker himself played s a Stradavarius. He went on to say that their skepticism about how these carbon instruments would sound melted away after their first rehearsal with them. They were booked to play in Calgary while they had the borrowed instruments and from Calgary, they needed to fly overnight to Mexico City for their next date. The violinist said that they played one night in Calgary, where the January temperature was -35 degrees F, after which the instruments were checked as baggage, and when they got to Mexico City, where it was 80 degrees and very humid, they were flabbergasted to find that the carbon-fiber instruments did not even need to be retuned from the sub-zero Canadian gig, or the flight in the cargo hold of a jet liner! The entire quartet agreed that these modern instruments sounded at least as good as their priceless antique wooden ones! Needless to say, he continued, they all bought the Luis and Clarke instruments, and now they leave their antique viols at home when they travel! I wish I could remember the name of the quartet, but since I'd never heard of them before, the name went in one ear and out the other!

[plissken]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

That article says listeners preferred the newer instruments because they "projected" more, which people tend to prefer.

 

Wouldn't newer ones be better all round with computer design tools and modern construction technology?

 

Impossible since good audio quality is derived from fairy dust and unicorn horns. 

[firedog]

I believe there was a small test comparing these carbon fiber violins to old master violins, and the modern ones were preferred. The CF instruments are also much cheaper, even affordable by normal people.

[gzubeck]

21 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I heard a string quartet on WCRB, Boston, a couple of years ago where all the players were playing carbon-fiber instruments (violin, cello, viola, bass viol) from the Boston firm of Luis and Clarke. The violinist said that they decided to try the carbon-fiber instruments, because they travelled so much on aircraft from gig to gig, that it was getting really expensive, having to book two seats each; one for themselves and one for their instruments. Wooden string instruments have to acliamatize to a new environment, and cannot be carried in a luggage hold because they are generally neither pressurized nor heated. The folks at Luis and  Clarke assured them that the carbon-fiber instruments were absolutely 100% temperature and humidity stable. The firm let them borrow a set of instruments to try. They were all skeptical because all of their wooden viols were very expensive European instruments, mostly Italian. The speaker himself played s a Stradavarius. He went on to say that their skepticism about how these carbon instruments would sound melted away after their first rehearsal with them. They were booked to play in Calgary while they had the borrowed instruments and from Calgary, they needed to fly overnight to Mexico City for their next date. The violinist said that they played one night in Calgary, where the January temperature was -35 degrees F, after which the instruments were checked as baggage, and when they got to Mexico City, where it was 80 degrees and very humid, they were flabbergasted to find that the carbon-fiber instruments did not even need to be retuned from the sub-zero Canadian gig, or the flight in the cargo hold of a jet liner! The entire quartet agreed that these modern instruments sounded at least as good as their priceless antique wooden ones! Needless to say, he continued, they all bought the Luis and Clarke instruments, and now they leave their antique viols at home when they travel! I wish I could remember the name of the quartet, but since I'd never heard of them before, the name went in one ear and out the other!

Thanks for the detailed post...I guess 99% same sound and 500% more convenient and economical comes into play here. But...for a major recording close to home it still sounds better to say recorded with a Stradivari ... LOL!

[sphinxsix]

@gmgraves An interesting story!

26 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

The entire quartet agreed that these modern instruments sounded at least as good as their priceless antique wooden ones!

Yet there are not many quartets which use carbon violins.. At least I haven't heard of any. It seems to me that some clever marketing took place here..

 

One more thing about the Strad vs modern violin sound samples - they are probably MP3 or some other lossy format and it's not so easy to tell the difference between them. Once I had a demo CD on which the violinist used Stradivarius, Guarneri, some other old instruments and a quite expensive new one (can't recall the brand) and it was quite easy to hear the sound differences.

[esldude]

https://luisandclark.com/product/violin/ 

A bit over $5500.

 

https://luisandclark.com/

 

Plenty of testimonials like YoYo Ma on the carbon fiber cello.

 

While not the same beauty of wood, these instruments have a significant beauty of their own in my opinion.  More so in person (at least with a couple carbon fiber guitars I have seen). 

 

 

[STC]

20 minutes ago, esldude said:

Plenty of testimonials like YoYo Ma on the carbon fiber cello.

 

There are also plenty of testimonials for many audio products such as the green marker. 

[esldude]

1 minute ago, STC said:

 

There are also plenty of testimonials for many audio products such as the green marker. 

No testimonials from YoYo Ma on the green marker. 

[mansr]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

https://luisandclark.com/product/violin/ 

A bit over $5500.

That's certainly affordable.

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, sphinxsix said:

@gmgraves An interesting story!

Yet there are not many quartets which use carbon violins.. At least I haven't heard of any. It seems to me that some clever marketing took place here..

 

One more thing about the Strad vs modern violin sound samples - they are probably MP3 or some other lossy format and it's not so easy to tell the difference between them. Once I had a demo CD on which the violinist used Stradivarius, Guarneri, some other old instruments and a quite expensive new one (can't recall the brand) and it was quite easy to hear the sound differences.

 

I once heard a live demonstration of the differences between a Stad, and Amati, and a Guarneri. The occasion was this Hi-Fi shop that I occasionally visited. One of the regulars was a prodigy violins (I would guess his age to be about 16). I was there one Saturday when he showed up with three violins that had been loaned to him by wealthy patrons. He stood in the middle of listening one of the rooms and played a section of the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto #1 on each. This was a great test because (A) he played the same section of the work each time and (B) there was no electronics between the violins and my ears. The result was that the Strad sound rich and sonorous, the Amati was lighter sounding and Guarneri was actually a bit thin and screechy sounding. We all agreed that the Strad sounded the best.

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, STC said:

 

There are also plenty of testimonials for many audio products such as the green marker. 

 

That's entirely different. The Green Pen is subjective - like interconnects. Some people are going to be convinced that they hear a difference, and nothing is going to change their mind. You can explain the physics behind coaxial cable and perception vs physics 'til you are blue in the face and it won't make any difference. People who play an instrument professionally have a relationship with that instrument which is many faceted and quite deep. They know intimately how it sounds, how easy or difficult it is to play, the range of tonality and the degree of inflection that it is possible to coax out of one instrument or an other. These people are not swayed by charlatans hawking questionable products. They would know instantly whether or not a particular instrument measures-up. 

[esldude]

46 minutes ago, mansr said:

That's certainly affordable.

 

There is this carbon fiber instrument that won a blind test at the German Instrument awards available for about half as much (2500 euro).

 

http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/news/carbon-fiber-trumps-traditional-wood-instrument-competition

 

https://www.mezzo-forte.de/carbon-instruments.html

 

These are available for around $2200 and have a good reputation.

 

http://www.elixirviolins.com/

[sphinxsix]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

Strad sound rich and sonorous, the Amati was lighter sounding and Guarneri was actually a bit thin and screechy sounding. We all agreed that the Strad sounded the best.

Based on my (limited to audio gear) comparison listening experiences I'd agree with you - Stradivarius sounds the best. Full bodied, harmonically rich sound.

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

 

I once heard a live demonstration of the differences between a Stad, and Amati, and a Guarneri. The occasion was this Hi-Fi shop that I occasionally visited. One of the regulars was a prodigy violins (I would guess his age to be about 16). I was there one Saturday when he showed up with three violins that had been loaned to him by wealthy patrons. He stood in the middle of listening one of the rooms and played a section of the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto #1 on each. This was a great test because (A) he played the same section of the work each time and (B) there was no electronics between the violins and my ears. The result was that the Strad sound rich and sonorous, the Amati was lighter sounding and Guarneri was actually a bit thin and screechy sounding. We all agreed that the Strad sounded the best.

This is, I believe, performer dependent -- having had the experience of listening up close with a very accomplished violinist who uses one "on loan". The importance of bows should not be underestimated. 

I don't think there are absolute "one better than other" rather all depends on the hands of the individual.

[STC]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

 

That's entirely different. The Green Pen is subjective - like interconnects. Some people are going to be convinced that they hear a difference, and nothing is going to change their mind. You can explain the physics behind coaxial cable and perception vs physics 'til you are blue in the face and it won't make any difference. People who play an instrument professionally have a relationship with that instrument which is many faceted and quite deep. They know intimately how it sounds, how easy or difficult it is to play, the range of tonality and the degree of inflection that it is possible to coax out of one instrument or an other. These people are not swayed by charlatans hawking questionable products. They would know instantly whether or not a particular instrument measures-up. 

 

Can't help noticing the similarities between professional musicians and audiophiles.

 

I thought the researcher said that in terms of physics, they found no difference between the two. 

 

 

[davide256]

I seem to recall something about the wood for Stradivarius being reclaimed wood from canals, where the water content and the fungus growth caused some unusual characteristics in the salvaged wood.  This article also talks about chemically treating the wood

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/20/science/stradivari-violin-wood.html?_r=0