One box solution...when?

[57gold]

Finding the long, tedious discussions of: a) boxes/thingamabobs that isolate, re-clock, de-packet noise, galvanize or otherwise address the inherent weaknesses of USB inputs on DACs, b) the renderer thingamajigs that do something else to make computers delivering digital files to DACs do it in a far more musical way, and c) the other boxes that serve as power supplies that make up for the inherent weaknesses/design flaws of the power supply apparatus/schemes that makers of DACs, USB thingamabobs and renderer thingamajigs deliver with their seemingly incomplete products...well, pretty ridiculous.

 

So, how about a discussion of DACs that do it all right when connected to a computer/server, like ones with well designed USB inputs that do not require thingamabobs or thingamajigs and offer the right type/number of internal power supplies that make external stuff superfluous?  Do they exist?

 

This post is in part a reaction to a recent post in which a CA member posted a photo of an inexpensive DAC with three or four extra gizmos attached to a web of cheap looking cables with a glowing description of the resulting sonics.  Gotta be a better way!

 

[jtwrace]

Vinnie Rossi LIO

 

http://www.vinnierossi.com/

[57gold]

LIO looks like a cool product for a small room or with horns/high efficiency speakers...I'm just looking for a well designed DAC, one that can make great music and drive an amp without 2 to 4 additional boxes attached to address various and sundry design weaknesses.

 

Well, since I'm at it, just read our fearless leader's review of a $7500 DAC that has a tube output stage based upon the company's well-regarded preamps...and yet has no volume control???  Need a separate preamp, like another $7500 to have a consistent path from DAC to the amp to attenuate volume...seems to me, a volume control is merited in a $7500 DAC...but that's just me.   Never mind DSD capabilities.

[wgscott]

I still have yet to see any compelling evidence or measurements that demonstrate any of these gizmos does anything helpful or positive.

 

I think you are right that any DAC manufactured that would require such things is (a) defective and (b) incompetently marketed (why make your product's performance depend upon the end-user's or reviewer's choice of wires?)

[firedog]

1 hour ago, wgscott said:

I still have yet to see any compelling evidence or measurements that demonstrate any of these gizmos does anything helpful or positive.

 

I think you are right that any DAC manufactured that would require such things is (a) defective and (b) incompetently marketed (why make your product's performance depend upon the end-user's or reviewer's choice of wires?)

I don't have compelling evidence, only my ears, which tell me these add on boxes can make a difference. Take that FWIW in your opinion. I at least have the psychological benefit of thinking I've done my utmost to get my source SQ where I want it, and that gets me to stop thinking about further "improvements", which is a hard to quantify - but significant - benefit for me. 

 

Same reason I buy upgrade cables - I think they make a small difference, not sure. But at least by buying things like BlueJeans (or other reasonably priced) "audiophile" cables, I know that my cables at least meet spec, and I stop thinking about another topic that results in "audiophile nervosa". 

 

I don't think the USB issue means the units are defective. Obviously, they sound good without the add-ons. "Needing" a USB add on means they aren't optimal. Apparently the whole USB audio thing is pretty complicated, and a lot of audio designers don't have the chops to deal with it. It also seems to be difficult to do such an optimization "in box". A few manufacturers (like MSB) seem to have done it, albeit with a lot of R&D and at quite a bit of expense. 

 

I'd guess that a lot of DAC manufacturers think the cost of including a fully optimized USB input is less significant than other SQ issues (such as PS) in a DAC, and decide not to include such an expensive solution in order to meet a price point. If such an optimized solution is going to make a $2000 DAC cos $2750 or $3000 at retail, it may not be a successful way to market a given DAC. 

 

I'm guessing that 5 or 10 years from now there will be optimized network based solutions (either wireless or ethernet) and USB will fade as the input of choice for audiophiles. 

 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, 57gold said:

LIO looks like a cool product for a small room or with horns/high efficiency speakers...I'm just looking for a well designed DAC, one that can make great music and drive an amp without 2 to 4 additional boxes attached to address various and sundry design weaknesses.

 

Well, since I'm at it, just read our fearless leader's review of a $7500 DAC that has a tube output stage based upon the company's well-regarded preamps...and yet has no volume control???  Need a separate preamp, like another $7500 to have a consistent path from DAC to the amp to attenuate volume...seems to me, a volume control is merited in a $7500 DAC...but that's just me.   Never mind DSD capabilities.

 

LIO can be run as "just" a DAC and PRE, so would be a great candidate to drive an amp without additional boxes.

BTW, Vinnie has already said that during the summer he will introduce an upgraded DAC module that includes glavanic isolation, and according to him even better SQ.  He's also coming out with a more powerful amp module, if that is what interests you. 

 

I don't have any way of auditioning a LIO, which is why it really isn't a candidate for me, but if I lived in the US I'd be looking at it as a one box or one of two box solution. 

[esldude]

Now I haven't used one, but what about the Benchmark DAC2.  Streaming of music is about all it lacks.  Not bad for $1995. Effectively immune to jitter according to Benchmark. 

 

https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-dac2-hgc-digital-to-analog-audio-converter

 

http://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-dac2-hgc-da-processorheadphone-amplifier#g3tgIsLFFWIg5oIw.97

 

Summing up the Benchmark DAC2 HGC's measured performance is easy: It's simply superb.—John Atkinson
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-dac2-hgc-da-processorheadphone-amplifier-measurements#8FttdQ7Y5FleDIIs.99

 

 

[mevdinc]

Hi All,

I also favour one box solution which makes things easier and a good designed unit with all the functionality yields good (or even better) results (the lack of interconnects between separate units is a big plus).
I just connect the system to my active speakers!
I used Zodiac Gold DAC for a few years as a one box solution with very satisfying sound.

Recently I purchased a Lindemann Musicbook 20 DSD with a full analog volume control, usb, DSD 256 and a streamer; a real box of tricks with great sound too.
It's been enjoying great reviews and I'm not at all surprised as I'm really impressed with it. It can upsample or play native DSD and hi-res PCM files, the remote app supports TIDAL streaming too.
Some of the models also have CD option.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/lindemann5/1.html

Happy listening to all.
Mev

 

[57gold]

7 hours ago, wgscott said:

I still have yet to see any compelling evidence or measurements that demonstrate any of these gizmos does anything helpful or positive.

 

I think you are right that any DAC manufactured that would require such things is (a) defective and (b) incompetently marketed (why make your product's performance depend upon the end-user's or reviewer's choice of wires?)

 

Good point.  I have taken it as an act of faith in the large number of folks who have chimed in, including what appears to be credible manufacturers of some of these "boxes" (otherwise known as financially interested parties), and their detailed explanations of why they work/what design maladies they address...that they actually do work.  Have been using software that has made big improvements, like A+ and HQPlayer and PM, which I learned about here, so I assumed that the boxes made real improvement, too.

 

Use FW to hook up my Mac Mini to a DAC, which does not have an input for a replacement power supply...so other than possibly replacing the Mini's switching power supply with a linear one, I have been able to avoid the "buy another box or three" syndrome.  But my DAC is long in the tooth, been replaced by a new model and FW is all but gone (a real shame as it was meant to carry music).

 

The Lindemann sounds interesting...a maker that I am unfamiliar with.

[plissken]

Get an Ethernet streamer. They come @ all price points. Then you can just not worry about that horrible USB interface. 

[plissken]

11 minutes ago, 57gold said:

 

Good point.  I have taken it as an act of faith in the large number of folks who have chimed in, including what appears to be credible manufacturers of some of these "boxes" (otherwise known as financially interested parties), and their detailed explanations of why they work/what design maladies they address

 

Don't for forget the act of faith where Alex (owner of uptone) said at WBF forum he would blind test their own regen and when Amir offered to fly out to him he up and disappeared. 

[57gold]

6 minutes ago, plissken said:

Get an Ethernet streamer. They come @ all price points. Then you can just not worry about that horrible USB interface. 

Thought those were for TIDAL and other such streaming services?  Have a ripped CD collection of like 2,500 titles and pick up a couple of CD's a month when I learn of something new that I want to hear. Have enough monthly charges for TV, phones, access to a couple of guitar lesson sites...so I've resisted and guessed that the stuff I would want would not be on one of the streaming services, anyways.

 

7 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Don't for forget the act of faith where Alex (owner of uptone) said at WBF forum he would blind test their own regen and when Amir offered to fly out to him he up and disappeared. 

 Missed that challenge...but not surprised.  Have read elsewhere that USB was designed for mice, keyboards and the like...not data like music or video files...so I'm believing that uptone is addressing real issues.

 

The other kind of humorous thought that runs through my mind is that several of the "audiophiles" I have met spent more time obsessing on music related equipment than the music and more than one I have met have had very expensive gear that did not sound particularly good as set up in their rooms...they would have a few boxes in front of their $10K DAC, for sure.

[plissken]

20 minutes ago, 57gold said:

Thought those were for TIDAL and other such streaming services?  Have a ripped CD collection of like 2,500 titles and pick up a couple of CD's a month when I learn of something new that I want to hear. Have enough monthly charges for TV, phones, access to a couple of guitar lesson sites...so I've resisted and guessed that the stuff I would want would not be on one of the streaming services, anyways.

 

Many support SMB and other file systems. UPnP etc... So you can have a NAS and all your music ripped to it. Turn up the appropriate server (UPnP, Twonky etc...) and manage with a tablet.

 

Cambridge CXN is $1000, Cary Audio is DMS-500 is $5000, Sony HAPZ1ES is $2000

 

Quote

 

 Missed that challenge...but not surprised.  Have read elsewhere that USB was designed for mice, keyboards and the like...not data like music or video files...so I'm believing that uptone is addressing real issues.

USB is data bus for connecting peripheral devices. You can even get USB connected Oscilliscopes, Tanning Beds, Hard Drives, TV's etc...

 

You are no more or less sending music over usb to a DAC than you are sending a book over usb to a printer. 

 

Trust me all the companies will scare the gullible into Ethernet Doohickies and denounce high throughput, low latency wireless with EMI and RFI non-existent gremlins. 

 

[jtwrace]

34 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Don't for forget the act of faith where Alex (owner of uptone) said at WBF forum he would blind test their own regen and when Amir offered to fly out to him he up and disappeared. 

Can you provide the link to this post?  

[plissken]

Post 867 after Amir asked if Fresno was the closest Airport. Pffft like a fart in the wind. I believe in Alex's product as much as he does. 

 

 

[davide256]

49 minutes ago, plissken said:

Get an Ethernet streamer. They come @ all price points. Then you can just not worry about that horrible USB interface. 

There's a lot to be said for isolating  the file server from the renderer.  IMHO the remaining "thingmabobs" all are about dealing with power supply interaction and separates component to component interaction... something that a well executed single box would have absolute control over, assuming the MOBO design was top notch. I've seen a few where the renderer and DAC are separate sections in same chassis, would like to see more where the DAC and renderer modules were "pluggable" for upgrade over time as advancements are made vs "forklift upgrade"

[wwaldmanfan]

33 minutes ago, 57gold said:

The other kind of humorous thought that runs through my mind is that several of the "audiophiles" I have met spent more time obsessing on music related equipment than the music and more than one I have met have had very expensive gear that did not sound particularly good as set up in their rooms.

 

Sounds like my friend Dave. A very nice fellow, but must have $15-20K invested in his rig. He has an entire closet filled with NAS equipment, microRendu system, high end amplification, and big B&W speakers, which are shoved into corners behind a sofa in his living room, aimed straight out. When I suggested that he move them away from the walls, he sheepishly admitted that he is constrained by WAF.

[plissken]

2 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

Sounds like my friend Dave. A very nice fellow, but must have $15-20K invested in his rig. He has an entire closet filled with NAS equipment, microRendu system, high end amplification, and big B&W speakers, which are shoved into corners behind a sofa in his living room, aimed straight out. When I suggested that he move them away from the walls, he sheepishly admitted that he is constrained by WAF.

 

I have a friend that has $15,000 in speakers, $7K in electronics and 100% befuddled how my $4500 DIY system bests. 

[Andyman]

For the fewest boxes, how about...

 

 

[GUTB]

3 hours ago, plissken said:

 

I have a friend that has $15,000 in speakers, $7K in electronics and 100% befuddled how my $4500 DIY system bests. 

 

This is, of course, a lie.

[plissken]

3 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

This is, of course, a lie.

 

And you of course are an idiot.

[davide256]

13 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

And you of course are an idiot.

 2 wrongs don't make a right...  when I see posts like GUTB's I just  assume "flame warrior" on their way to being banned from the site and try to take the high ground for the time it takes to get them banned.

[GUTB]

When someone makes the claim that their budget DIY beats a high-end system it's a lie as a rule. It's also possible audio memory is playing tricks on them. In this case it seems that both parties agree to it so audio memory is less likely.

 

As usual, no details or sonic evaluation is offered. 

[Norton]

14 hours ago, 57gold said:

 

So, how about a discussion of DACs that do it all right when connected to a computer/server, like ones with well designed USB inputs that do not require thingamabobs or thingamajigs and offer the right type/number of internal power supplies that make external stuff superfluous?  Do they exist?

 

 

 

I suspect that most DACs already "do it right".  Don't confuse the need to tweak (and make money out of  tweakers) with DACs actually requiring this stuff.

 

Always  amuses me when people assume they can improve on the work of  a top DAC designer simply by buying these gadgets.  As in many hobbies, there's plenty of money to be made out of selling "pocket money upgrades" - things that don't cost too much and are easy for the end user to fit, so viewed as a low risk purchase, but don't necessarily make any difference either.

 

 

[Ralf11]

I also favor box reduction, and am hoping the new Oppo disc player will kill off my DAC, CD player and Blueray video player.