Do you leave your DAC powered on all the time?

[wgscott]

I was reading about this in another thread, and I didn't want to hijack it any more than had already been done, so I'm starting this one.

 

I'm in the habit of turning everything off but my computer (which stays on all the time for a variety of reasons).  

 

My DAC (a TEAC NT-503) has an auto-off feature (that can be turned off) that turns it off if idle for more than 20 minutes (the only time-out option).  Because of this, I just assumed there is no harm in turning stuff off, and my midwestern puritanical upbringing is such that I hate leaving stuff turned on, especially when I am not at home.

 

On some occasions where the DAC/amp have been left on overnight, I have never heard any obvious difference or improvement, but then again I wasn't expecting to, and wasn't listening for it.

 

So, is this good practice, or audiphoolry?

[esldude]

At one time good DACs seemed to need to reach an equilibrium to sound best.  Some said it was the clock stabilizing and jitter reducing as a result.  There are other possible effects.  It sure seemed to matter with some I have had in the past.  They seemed to take a couple days to warm up to equilibrium.  I may have been the audiophool then, a couple seemed to take a week.  When power went out I groaned for it would take days for my best sound to return.

 

I have had other gear, power amps or preamps that might take a half hour or even a few hours, but DACs seemed the worst.  In those days I just accepted it as so. 

 

Seems modern DACs are less touchy about this though not completely turn on and have top sound in two minutes. 

 

I have measured using a Jtest and seen that cold the first couple minutes DACs do have a bit more jitter, and some have a tiny bit more distortion.  The newer ones seem to reach final stable levels after about 30 minutes.  I haven't been rigorous about this.  When I checked and a Jtest was clearly worse cold vs 15 minutes later it looks to be at least plausibly true though the apparent jitter levels still should be inaudible.  Then 30 minutes seemed as good as it gets.  I do have one older DAC and it does take about an hour for its jitter to fully calm down.  Again I wouldn't think it has enough to matter even cold.

 

So in my audiophool days it seemed real and I believed it. There is at least a grain of objective truth devices need to warm up for stable function.  Can we really hear that?  I don't know.  If people took part in listening tests I would put up files recorded dead cold vs one week on.  Just for discussion and entertainment.  I have found people like to argue about what they hear more than simply listen and choose.  They seem intimidated by actually choosing with the risk of being wrong. Even though the only downside to choosing wrong is a little loss of face paired with really learning something.  Seems like a good bargain to me.

 

When I have recorded various files for people to argue over, I don't do any recording until everything has been on for two hours. 

 

Yet when I record people playing music, I have at times needed to setup, get ready, and start recording when the gear has only been on a few minutes due to time constraints.  It hasn't been worse that I can tell.  Usually the second take by the musicians is a much bigger improvement.  Maybe they should warm up for 30 minutes.

[Ralf11]

I believe you are dancing backwards* -- a computer should be periodically turned off and restarted (to have checks done).  I do it about every week.

 

I don't see a reason to leave solid-state components on or off when not in use.  Power consumption is small and I can hear no SQ differences either way.  

 

The manual for my ARC tube-based pre-amp does say the SQ will improve after an hour...

 

 

 

 

 

* sorry Patti

[mourip]

I leave everything but my Linear Tube Audio(LTA) tube preamp and tube amp on all of the time. The Yggy DAC especially benefits from this and it is recommended by the manufacturer.

 

I would say that my tube equipment sounds OK right away but remarkable after an hour.

 

I agree about the PC. I probably should reboot it at least once a week.

[ShawnC]

My DAC is always on, as recommend by the manufacture (Bel Canto), draws little power when not in use.  I leave the PC on all the time so I can stream music to my phone at work or when out and about.

[wgscott]

It's a mac.  In my experience, unix-based systems can go for years without a reboot. (Given our electrical supply and grid, that never happens here.)

[wgscott]

1 hour ago, wgscott said:

It's a mac.  In my experience, unix-based systems can go for years without a reboot. (Given our electrical supply and grid, that never happens here.)

 

Sure enough, I was forced to reboot it this morning.  Audirvana became a Zombie process.

[Jud]

11 hours ago, esldude said:

If people took part in listening tests I would put up files recorded dead cold vs one week on.  Just for discussion and entertainment.  I have found people like to argue about what they hear more than simply listen and choose.  They seem intimidated by actually choosing with the risk of being wrong. Even though the only downside to choosing wrong is a little loss of face paired with really learning something.  Seems like a good bargain to me.

 

:thumbsup:

[Jud]

52 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

Sure enough, I was forced to reboot it this morning.  Audirvana became a Zombie process.

 

Way back when, I got my best friend at work (who unfortunately passed away years ago) to install a Zombie screensaver for Halloween.  Even after he supposedly uninstalled it, every so often zombies would pop up from the bottom of his screen and walk around his desktop.  This was back when very little was animated in UIs, so it was a very different thing.  I'm sure it was some programmer's joke (zombies, get it?), but it gave him the willies, because he thought he'd been pwned.  (I'm not even sure we had the term back then.)  And he didn't dare contact support about it, since it wasn't an authorized install.  Of course every time he saw this and went nuts, I and all his other friends would dissolve in laughter.  Eventually he managed to get rid of it, or it went away on its own.

[andifor]

I always turn my equipment off. I don't care, if it sounds slightly different the first 20, 30, 60 minutes. Sound and my perception changes every day, and I think, this has bigger influence on how I hear music.

 

Even on weekends, where I think, my mood does not change, I don't hear noticeable differences in sound quality if I keep the stuff running or turn it off.

 

Conserving energy is more important for me.

[Ralf11]

3 hours ago, wgscott said:

 

Sure enough, I was forced to reboot it this morning.  Audirvana became a Zombie process.

 

you must have extended some evil force field northward - ironically, I had to reboot my mac this am to kill the ungodly slowness... and I don't have Audirvana or any other vanas on it

 

 

BTW, Conserving energy will be optimized if you have all your wall warts on a single strip that you can switch off - those transformers are what really suck power in most SS items.

[tne]

The concept that I have long since worked from, with no attempt to experimentally verify the correctness of, is that thermal cycling of the various components, as will occur when turning off and on, may lead to a problem in the long term (that may precede one that would occur if left on continually) as they will likely have somewhat different thermal expansion coefficients. Clearly this is a difficult theory to test. Perhaps there are some large scale industrial tests that I am not aware of.

 

I have my very first piece of tube gear now (Schiit Freya preamp), so I either turn it off overnight or have the tubes out and run in passive or JFET mode.

[miguelito]

Yes

[miguelito]

15 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

The manual for my ARC tube-based pre-amp does say the SQ will improve after an hour...

Tube-based equipment is different. If I left my amp on permanently I would burn down the apartment.

[Miko]

I used to leave all my equipment on, then one evening a power supply cap exploded in my pre amp. Had I not been home at the time who knows what that could have turned into.

 

Now, everything is shut off if I'm not using it.

Blue sparks shooting out of it, nasty acrid smoke...it was not good and happened in just a few minutes.

 

 

[miguelito]

28 minutes ago, Miko said:

I used to leave all my equipment on, then one evening a power supply cap exploded in my pre amp. Had I not been home at the time who knows what that could have turned into.

Understood. Never had that problem myself, but obviously can happen.

[sdolezalek]

17 hours ago, esldude said:

Quote

I have measured using a Jtest and seen that cold the first couple minutes DACs do have a bit more jitter, and some have a tiny bit more distortion.  The newer ones seem to reach final stable levels after about 30 minutes.  I haven't been rigorous about this.  When I checked and a Jtest was clearly worse cold vs 15 minutes later it looks to be at least plausibly true though the apparent jitter levels still should be inaudible.  Then 30 minutes seemed as good as it gets.  I do have one older DAC and it does take about an hour for its jitter to fully calm down.  Again I wouldn't think it has enough to matter even cold.

 

I often wonder whether the real warm-up process occurs in our ears.  I do believe my DAC sounds better some 20+ minutes after I first turn it on.  But  If we assume that our system's reproduction isn't perfect ,then each time we turn it on there needs to be some adjustment in our brains to reprogram how we hear our system's sound in a way that "makes sense to our brain."  So might it not be the case that after about 30 minutes of listening we have made all the necessary mental adjustments and gotten comfortable with them in a way that makes our system sound better, even if it hasn't changed at all from the moment we turned it on?  I have no idea how to test this.  Additionally, someone could make a valid case that all these mental adjustments should be finished in the first minute or two, not over 30 minutes. 

 

There is no way to A/B test this as you would need to always wait 30 minutes between switching.  Having said that, I think my DAC always sounds better 20 minutes in, whether or not it was turned on or off before I started the listening  session...

[Ralf11]

you could A/B it with different units (and assume or test unit to unit SQ variation)

 

re caps - electrolytic capacitors have a finite lifespan of about 20 years or so (at least for ones made in the 1980s; not sure re more modern ones) -- IIRC, they will fail even if not used after some time (tho it would seem that heat would shorten their lifespan)

[Jud]

19 minutes ago, sdolezalek said:

I often wonder whether the real warm-up process occurs in our ears.  I do believe my DAC sounds better some 20+ minutes after I first turn it on.  But  If we assume that our system's reproduction isn't perfect ,then each time we turn it on there needs to be some adjustment in our brains to reprogram how we hear our system's sound in a way that "makes sense to our brain."  So might it not be the case that after about 30 minutes of listening we have made all the necessary mental adjustments and gotten comfortable with them in a way that makes our system sound better, even if it hasn't changed at all from the moment we turned it on?  I have no idea how to test this.  Additionally, someone could make a valid case that all these mental adjustments should be finished in the first minute or two, not over 30 minutes. 

 

There is no way to A/B test this as you would need to always wait 30 minutes between switching.  Having said that, I think my DAC always sounds better 20 minutes in, whether or not it was turned on or off before I started the listening  session...

 

Always a way to test.   You just need someone else with the same DAC.  Warm one up, leave one cold, play and see which you prefer (to really do it well and avoid echoic memory issues, you would have to use mono and sync the two to play simultaneously, each in one channel).  Change which one is warmed up and see if preference changes accordingly.

 

Edit: With appropriate blinding, of course.

[Miko]

Caps need to charge, clocks need to get up to temp.. tubes need warm up time etc...

All components have their specified operating temps. In reality, everything should be in spec and ready in 45 minutes... 

 

Leaving things on 24/7 is not necessary and potentially hazardous.. especially some of the gems from China.

[Panelhead]

  My Focusrite Clarett 4Pre stays on. It get WARM. The top of the case is uncomfortable. 

  There are some large resistors that may be voltage drop devices. This might be the source of the heat.

[ted_b]

I leave digital (anything with a clock) on 24/7.  Many dac manufacturers insist, with folks like auralic that force you to wait an hour plus to even turn on their most exact clocking setup.  I know digital mavens like Alex Peychev has previosuly said 24-48 hours is the period of time required for clock thermal equilibrium, but I gotta assume that is a bit overboard.  Regardless, I leave all digital on 24/7.  In the case of tubes, many well-designed digital units have a standby funtion to turn off the tubes but keep the digital section active and on.

 

It's probably theoretical more than practical, but I swear, shoudl I have had to power them down, that my dacs sound better after several hours on.  YMMV.

[Ralf11]

re: warm-up process occurs in our ears...

 

Yes, to some extent.  It has been shown that human hearing will accommodate to some extent with repeated listening.

 

I'm not willing to say that is all it is with equipment left on for a minute or an hour.  OTOH, I don't worry about it either.  I turn on the pre-amp, let it blink for its required 40 seconds then raise the volume and turn off the muting.  I just leave the other equipment on all the time unless leaving for a vacation or something.

 

If there is an effect it is unlikely to be very large (especially when compared to interconnects or chickens...)

[Miko]

What about bad weather? You really going to trust that the power surge thingy will do the job?

 

When I was a kid, lightning struck our house dead on and blew everything that was connected. 

 

I remember being very sad about that, yet my mother was ecstatic. It was only after the fifth or so visit to Sears that I then understood..

 

She must have had one hell of an insurance policy on the house because we replaced everything...

 

Still.. some equipment of mine is quite rare and virtually impossible to replace. I always shut everything off and pull the plugs. Nothing is connected... 

[Ralf11]

Lightening strikes are for upgrades