I2S compatibility issue between W4S dac2 & Singxer SU-1, two beatiful pieces of hi-end products

[Ienag]

Here it's possible to continue to follow the discussion about some problem between W4S is connected to Singxer SU-1 through I2S.

 

In this case With Dsd reproduction  one channel has the phase inverted .

 

Singxer seems working on it and it is possible perhaps to solve the problem even if the reason of the problem could be on W4S I2S implementation.  

Waiting for W4S effort ...

 

We hope in a collaboration between the two manufacturer for all their customers

 

If someone could add any further info please do it.  Sorry for my English.

 

Andrea

 

[jojeong8338]

Many thanks for your new session opening.

I look forward to your technical support and solution in advance.

Juno

[MINORISUKE]

There is already a technical solution.

As I posted in the other thtead, Leter of Singxer has already finshed a firmware patch, but will not release it until W4S contacts him and makes it clear that nothing is wrong with SU-1.

As the world's first evaluator of SU-1 prototype, I have been in close touch with him.  He informed me of the W4S issue yesterday, and I advised him to take a proper action to keep the brand value of Singxer.

[Ienag]

Singxer is right I think.

It could be useful, as answer to W4S,  publish the solution of pcm noise putting a cap inside W4S instead SU1 first of all.

After that Singxer should take in consideration that reputation is made by its customers and not by another manufacturer.

I want add that Everyone have well in mind W4S doesn't give the possibility to self update the firmware and this is a great limitation for any future or actual problem. In this situation we have a crystal clear demostration.

At the end I think Singxer is right but the great attention of the customers on this topic demostrates that the manufacturer more reactive and more customer oriented will receive not only gratitude but also more credit.

Sincerely I didn't like the offer of W4S to put the cap for 125€, very unfare neither the inability to update the firmware of my Dac2 dsdSE apart sending it to the fabric..shocking.

In any case Dac2 remains an absolute reference Dac but with these nowaday singular limitation.

I'm rooting for Singxer....

[Franatic]

I am happy to see that on this auspicious day(Easter), a new thread has arisen.   Blessings to all.

First of all, thank you to everyone who has made great effort to characterize and understand this complicated and convoluted i2s issue. I want to especially thank Leter, Minorisuke, and Lenag. I think we can see things much more clearly now. Singxer (Leter) has gone above and beyond the call of duty here. Buying a DAC2 so he could do prompt testing showed great initiative and commitment to its customers. I completely understand Singxer's position on holding back the solution.

I will wait at this time for the W4S statement on all of this.

[MINORISUKE]

Leter of Singxer added a capacitor inside W4S to bypass noise for PCM playback.
Uploading this picture was approved by Leter.

[Ienag]

Well done Leter and Singxer!

Now please W4S collaborate with Singxer and viceversa.

We are all in the same boat!

[ksalno]

4 hours ago, MINORISUKE said:

Leter of Singxer added a capacitor inside W4S to bypass noise for PCM playback.
Uploading this picture was approved by Leter.

Can we get a specification of the capacitor and maybe even a link to Mouser or someplace where we can order one? This looks like it will require a very fine soldering job. 

[Ienag]

For the moderator Chris, could you please transfer all relevant posts regarding the I2S topic from the one below? Page more or less 62-64

 

[billiam]

Just want to give a big thank you for all of you who are trying to help solve this issue!

[Ienag]

The final solution, as Minorisuke said before, is in the hand of Singxer and Leter.

We will be very grateful to Leter if he will decide to help us as customer.

We hope also W4S will decide to say something about the problem.

 

[MINORISUKE]

I hope W4S will wake up themselves.

Other PS Audio compatible DDCs such as HiFace EVO TWO encounter the same issue of absolute polarity swap.

In case W4S does not admit their fault but fix them secretly from the next batch, there will be two versions in the market and nobody will buy, as an old defect stock may come at any moment.  Its second-hand market will also disappear.

Apparently, DSD input was not tested, as they used PS Audio PWT which supported PCM only, in addition to their confidence that their I2S had been perfect back to many generations.  Yes, perfect for PCM, but not for DSD.

 

The fact that SU-1 does not have the PCM noise issue with PS Audio DS DAC Junior, which I tested at home, proves SU-1 is fully compliant.

 

W4S seems to have a worldwide dealer network.  They can arrange a free pickup from all their users, fix the problems in each dealer, and send back.  It is the responsibility of a manufacturer.

[Ienag]

1 hour ago, MINORISUKE said:

I hope W4S will wake up themselves.

Other PS Audio compatible DDCs such as HiFace EVO TWO encounter the same issue of absolute polarity swap.

In case W4S does not admit their fault but fix them secretly from the next batch, there will be two versions in the market and nobody will buy, as an old defect stock may come at any moment.  Its second-hand market will also disappear.

Apparently, DSD input was not tested, as they used PS Audio PWT which supported PCM only, in addition to their confidence that their I2S had been perfect back to many generations.  Yes, perfect for PCM, but not for DSD.

 

The fact that SU-1 does not have the PCM noise issue with PS Audio DS DAC Junior, which I tested at home, proves SU-1 is fully compliant.

 

W4S seems to have a worldwide dealer network.  They can arrange a free pickup from all their users, fix the problems in each dealer, and send back.  It is the responsibility of a manufacturer.

 

Ok Minorisuke, we are not manufacturers but customers that have spent a lot of money for their own passion as you I think.

It is not a war and for sure not our war.

W4S made a mistake in this case and it will be responsible vs the market anyway because nobody wants to have a not totally functional product.

Now Leter and Singxer has the possibility to release a firmware solving dsd problem of W4S owners and he should do it for Singxer customers and for all potential future customers that already own a W4S dac.

This is the only right way to get reputation on the brand and demostrate care and respect vs Singxer's customer, nobody else than customers.

Next time I will buy Singxer and not W4S probably and this will happen because Leter will release a firmware that is solving my problem, i repeat ..our problem.

I can't agree the suggestion to Leter to not provide any custom and just ready firmware wayting for W4S action ( they will pay their mistakes)  because at this moment the only losers are we, and if the situation will remain like this Singxer is putting itself on the same wrong plane.  

I repeat to you, we are loosing not others because we are not in the position to do anything. This is the great  occasion for the first who will do the right thing, solve the problem.

Immagine if Leter, after discovery the dsd solution with firmware, don't make it available. Do you think this is good or not for the brand? I can't understand this unuseful war without winners and sure loosers. We want to speak also with Leter, we are imploring him what else we should do?

Waiting also for others opinion...

[Bamber]

I have a lot of respect for W4S as they have provided perfect after sales support to me here in the UK.  I purchased the original DAC2 which I later found had a volume balance issue.  EJ shipped a new lid with the new firmware to fix the issue and it didn't cost me anything.

 

I still have the original emails and that is why I continue to purchase their products.  Hopefully if they find the fault is on their side they will offer a free fix like before.  I only received the new DAC2V2 SE from the UK dealer on 5th April so would expect them to fix any issue at their expense.

 

I like to experiment with different connections and intend to purchase the SU-1 and possibly the new UpTone Regen ISO.  I want to compare them against the Recovery to get the best possible sound from this reference DAC.

[Franatic]

I feel that W4S needs an opportunity to reply to all that has developed over the HOLIDAY weekend. Tomorrow I expect them to come online and make a statement about the issue. We have learned a lot here so they are going to need to be more upfront than they have been so far, especially with DSD testing.

The bottom line is Singxer has the solution and has the capability of implementing it fairly easily because unlike the DAC2, the SU-1 can receive firmware updates via usb. However, I understand that it is important to Singxer not to appear at fault for the i2s issues. That is why I eagerly await the next W4S response.

[GUTB]

I'm going to AXPONA next week where there will be a DAC2v2SE demo. This thread pretty much ensures that I won't be buying one, even though they claim special show pricing. If they do the honorable thing and admit the problem than that's different. Even though I have a Amanero-based DDC, I would be VERY upset to go buy a Singxer for DSD512 support (after the firmware for it is released) just to be faced with this problem.

[JohnDonaldson]

In the “Wyred 4 Sound Dac2SE Upgrade Revisited & Findings -- The Best Decision Unequivocally!” thread a question was asked about the Singxer SU-1 to Holo Spring DAC I2S interface. I believe this new thread is the best place to respond.

 

I had the chance for an extended evaluation of these 2. With V2.00 firmware in the Su-1 there was no noise with PCM files nor any phase problems with DSD files. Everything was as expected.

 

I have read reviews of several other DACs that have no problems with the SU-1 and the I2S interface. In fact, the W4S DACs are the only ones that I have read about with these problems.

 

I sure hope the parties involved can work out a rational resolution to this incompatibility that is fair to us customers.

 

[Ienag]

20 hours ago, JohnDonaldson said:

I had the chance for an extended evaluation of these 2. With V2.00 firmware in the Su-1 there was no noise with PCM files nor any phase problems with DSD files. Everything was as expected.

 

Hi Jhon,

an information, regarding the phase inversion on one channel  How do you have done the test?

In any case it's possible the Holo I2S implementation is different in some particular respect W4S so it could be understandable.

 

[JohnDonaldson]

6 hours ago, Ienag said:

 

Hi Jhon,

an information, regarding the phase inversion on one channel  How do you have done the test?

In any case it's possible the Holo I2S implementation is different in some particular respect W4S so it could be understandable.

 

With my speakers hooked up correctly I heard a normal sound stage. When I swapped the hookup on 1 speaker the volume at the center of the sound stage to deceased causing the center image to recede quite a bit.

 

From all I read it appears different manufactures implement I2S slightly differently causing this mess. I am not sure if the I2S spec is too loose or mistakes have been made. I hope that a solution can be worked out to get everyone to play well with each other but I am suspicious that business considerations will cause us customers to be disappointed in whatever comes out of this.

[GUTB]

23 minutes ago, JohnDonaldson said:

With my speakers hooked up correctly I heard a normal sound stage. When I swapped the hookup on 1 speaker the volume at the center of the sound stage to deceased causing the center image to recede quite a bit.

 

From all I read it appears different manufactures implement I2S slightly differently causing this mess. I am not sure if the I2S spec is too loose or mistakes have been made. I hope that a solution can be worked out to get everyone to play well with each other but I am suspicious that business considerations will cause us customers to be disappointed in whatever comes out of this.

 

I don't think a phase inversion in the DAC is going to effect your amplifier.

[MINORISUKE]

At first, absolute polarity is totally different from stereo polarity.  See below, for example.
http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_abspolarity.php

The issue with W4S DAC is absolute polarity.

 

As far as I2S/DSD HDMI LVDS is concerned, there are the following four major patterns.  DSDOE (DSD/PCM identifier), Mute, DC output (3.3 or 5V), etc. are sometimes added.
SU-1 can be set in these four patterns by using the dip switch No.6 and replacing the firmware (v200 and v202).  See the SU-1 page on Taobao by Singxer.

 

<1> PS Audio (and PS Audio assignment compliant models such as HiFace EVO TWO)
No.1: DATA-/DSDR-  No.3: DATA+/DSDR+
No.4: BCLK+/DSDCLK+  No.6: BCLK-/DSDCLK-
No.7: LRCK-/DSDL-  No.9: LRCK+/DSDL+

<2> LKS
No.1: DATA+/DSDR+  No.3: DATA-/DSDR-
No.4: BCLK+/DSDCLK+  No.6: BCLK-/DSDCLK-
No.7: LRCK+/DSDL+  No.9: LRCK-/DSDL-

<3> Holo Audio
No.1: DATA-/DSDL-  No.3: DATA+/DSDL+
No.4: BCLK+/DSDCLK+  No.6: BCLK-/DSDCLK-
No.7: LRCK-/DSDR-  No.9: LRCK+/DSDR+

<4> Gustard
No.1: DATA+/DSDL+  No.3: DATA-/DSDL-
No.4: BCLK+/DSDCLK+  No.6: BCLK-/DSDCLK-
No.7: LRCK+/DSDR+  No.9: LRCK-/DSDR-

 

Note that Holo Audio assignment on the Sonore list is incorrect.
Gustard's "early" figure for U12 was <2> and incorrect.  They changed the figure to <4> without notice.  However, there has been no change in hardware.

 

W4S DAC was supposed to follow <1> but belongs to none of these four due to a mistake and insufficient check.

Now you see adding a firmware patch to SU-1 just for the faulty W4S makes the fifth pattern, which might bring the market more into confusion.

That is why I insist W4S should fix this issue by themselves.  There is only one party involved in it.

 

If there is anything incorrect in the description above, please let me know.

[Ienag]

1 hour ago, MINORISUKE said:

Now you see adding a firmware patch to SU-1 just for the faulty W4S makes the fifth pattern, which might bring the market more into confusion.

That is why I insist W4S should fix this issue by themselves.  There is only one party involved in it.

 

Sorry but I can't agree, because if W4S will not do anything we will remain without I2S/dsd

Through our SU-1.

You have said Leter has already done a patch for the firmware so you have declared the solution exists.  Why Singxer doesn't make it available for its customers as me????

And, just to know, what are you interested in?

You perfectly know W4S can't update the firmware... so what is your scope suggesting Singxer to not providing the solution Singxer an Leter has just ready.

Frankly speaking I don't approve this approach because for sure it damage all the Singxer customers of this forum.

It is not a matter of market and... what confusion???

W4S will receive the consequences of its approach but this eventual evaluation is only in charge on customers that perhaps will don't appreciate it.

Why don't you want to help us, you know Leter and Singxer very well. We are not responsible for any mistakes and the customer should have always the priority or not?

So I repeat... why can't you give an hand with Singxer?

 

 

 

[Franatic]

At this point I must say I am unhappy with both manufacturers. However I am more unhappy with W4S. It is not even enough of a priority that they will address the DSD issue here. From all the data produced it seems to my understanding that the DSD phase reversal issue culpability lies with W4S. The bit clock issue that was solved with the capacitor(on either unit) seems to be more of a compatibility issue.

Minorisuke says Singxer's reputation has suffered because of this, not in my eyes. Leter went and purchased a DAC2 to investigate the issue, reproduced the problems, and came up with multiple solutions all in a couple days. I am very impressed. The SU-1 can be firmware updated via usb at home. This gives Singxer another advantage over W4S, which can't be updated in the field via usb. So I disagree that Singxer's reputation is damaged. Just the opposite, I am more impressed with Singxer because of all this.

What will damage Singxer's reputation will be their unwillingness to share a firmware solution already worked out with customers who want it. I agree with Lenag on this point. Singxer is already winning their customer's respect here. I will be even more grateful if they fix the W4S i2s DSD phasing problem.

By the way, W4S customers need to send emails to Tony Holt:

Tony Holt <[email protected]

Tony tells me I am the only who has emailed on this issue. Obviously, they don't take this forum seriously enough. Everyone who has a stake in this must email him and let him know it is important to you. They are consumed with getting ready for Axpona  http://www.axpona.com/

Because of this our issue may not get addressed until next week. I am getting a little tired of making so much effort here, obviously more than Wyred 4 Sound is.

I hope Leter makes the firmware available. W4S is going to take awhile to do anything for us.

The capacitor solution for PCM selection also needs more info for people to implement. Luckily, I already have that issue fixed.

 

[Wyred 4 Sound]

@Franatic As I just posted on the other thread, try to give us a bit of a break --

 

All, we've been looking at this thread from time to time and it's apparent we need to address some things here. Please bear with us -- we've been all-hands on deck preparing for AXPONA this weekend, and unfortunately EJ was in an accident that he is recovering from. We will respond very shortly, hopefully by the end of the week. Please, I implore everyone here to not jump to conclusions about anything until we've had a chance to digest things fully and respond in kind. Thanks for your patience. 

 

As always, we are available by email directly at [email protected].

 

Tony

[Franatic]

Tony, as it has been a week since we heard from you, we get restless. There has been much information divulged here that requires W4S commentary.

W4S and Singxer need to put customer's first, work together and get us a solution.

I hope EJ's injuries are not serious. I have just recovered from surgery for a completely torn quadriceps, so I can sympathize with injuries from accidents. My best for a speedy recovery for him.