BBC Streaming FLAC

[The Computer Audiophile]

Is anyone in the UK testing this yet?

 

Edit: Here in the US, the stream works through Firefox.

 

http://www.kirkville.com/bbc-radio-3-testing-lossless-flac-streaming/

[Cebolla]

Thanks for the heads up.

 

Looks like it'll be using MPEG-DASH streaming mechanism. Ironic that Cambridge Audio are getting involved, given their track record of supporting BBC's current 'HD' HLS AAC radio streams!

[Confused]

Is anyone in the UK testing this yet?

 

Edit: Here in the US, the stream works through Firefox.

 

Yes, I have just tried it.  It took five minutes to get it up and running, but almost all of that time was spent downloading Firefox, which is needed in the UK also it would appear.

 

Sounded pretty decent, if you like dreadful organ music (no offence meant to those that do!).  I have only listened to the first few minutes because I have other things to do this evening.  Whilst the sound quality sounded good, there were some very strange noises / sounds that could be heard, but I think these were part of the recording.  For the record, my little Devialet display was indicating 44.1kHz, so it appeared to be working as advertised.  Very promising I have to say.  I'll give this a more thorough test when I have some time.

[AudioDoctor]

Damn, I hate Firefox...

[mansr]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Is anyone in the UK testing this yet?

 

Edit: Here in the US, the stream works through Firefox.

 

Yes, I have just tried it.  It took five minutes to get it up and running, but almost all of that time was spent downloading Firefox, which is needed in the UK also it would appear.

For whatever reason, they're using MPEG DASH for streaming, and as yet only Firefox supports this.

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Sounded pretty decent, if you like dreadful organ music (no offence meant to those that do!).

I like good organ music, not dreadful.

[plissken]

4 minutes ago, mansr said:

For whatever reason, they're using MPEG DASH for streaming, and as yet only Firefox supports this.

 

 

MPEG DASH runs over HTTP so they can do this over standard web services frameworks. This equals less development costs.

 

It's adaptive bit rate so the best experience can be delivered depending on client throughput.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Anyone know if it's possible to get the address of the stream for input into other players?

[mansr]

15 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Anyone know if it's possible to get the address of the stream for input into other players?

https://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/client_manifest.mpd

[The Computer Audiophile]

In that mpd file contains other info. Is this streaming at 48 kHz?

 

 

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<MPD type="dynamic" xmlns="urn:mpeg:dash:schema:mpd:2011" xmlns:dvb="urn:dvb:dash-extensions:2014-1" profiles="urn:dvb:dash:profile:dvb-dash:2014,urn:dvb:dash:profile:dvb-dash:isoff-ext-live:2014" minBufferTime="PT2.034S" maxSegmentDuration="PT3.84S" timeShiftBufferDepth="PT10M" minimumUpdatePeriod="PT1H" availabilityStartTime="1970-01-01T00:01:00Z"  publishTime="2017-02-01T15:13:36Z">
    <!-- MPEG DASH ISO BMFF test stream -->
    <!-- Lossless audio using FLAC -->
    <!-- BBC Research & Development -->
    <!-- For more information see http://rdmedia.bbc.co.uk -->
    <!-- Email [email protected] -->
    <!-- (c) British Broadcasting Corporation 2017.  All rights reserved.-->
    <ProgramInformation>
        <Title>Radio 3 lossless</Title>
        <Source>BBC Research and Development</Source>
        <Copyright>British Broadcasting Corporation 2017</Copyright>
    </ProgramInformation>
    <UTCTiming schemeIdUri="urn:mpeg:dash:utc:http-xsdate:2014" value="http://time.akamai.com/?iso"/>
    <Period start="PT0S">
        <AdaptationSet startWithSAP="2" segmentAlignment="true" id="1" codecs="flac" audioSamplingRate="48000" lang="eng" mimeType="audio/mp4">
            <AudioChannelConfiguration schemeIdUri="urn:mpeg:dash:23003:3:audio_channel_configuration:2011" value="2"/>
            <Role schemeIdUri="urn:mpeg:dash:role:2011" value="main"/>
            <SegmentTemplate timescale="48000" duration="184320" media="$RepresentationID$/$Number%06d$.m4s" initialization="$RepresentationID$/IS.mp4" startNumber="1" presentationTimeOffset="0"/>
            <Representation id="A1" bandwidth="365000"/>
        </AdaptationSet>
    </Period>
    <Metrics metrics="DVBErrors">
        <Reporting schemeIdUri="urn:dvb:dash:reporting:2014" value="1" dvb:reportingUrl="http://rdmedia.bbc.co.uk/dash/errorreporting/reporterror.php" dvb:probability="50"/>
    </Metrics>
</MPD>
 

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

In that mpd file contains other info. Is this streaming at 48 kHz?

This part says so quite plainly:

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

        <AdaptationSet startWithSAP="2" segmentAlignment="true" id="1" codecs="flac" audioSamplingRate="48000" lang="eng" mimeType="audio/mp4">

[The Computer Audiophile]

Ah, I only saw the timescale option and missed sample rate. Thanks.

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Ah, I only saw the timescale option and missed sample rate. Thanks.

The two parameters tend to be related, for obvious reasons, so you weren't entirely off base.

[Cebolla]

16 hours ago, Confused said:

Sounded pretty decent, if you like dreadful organ music (no offence meant to those that do!).  I have only listened to the first few minutes because I have other things to do this evening.  Whilst the sound quality sounded good, there were some very strange noises / sounds that could be heard, but I think these were part of the recording.  For the record, my little Devialet display was indicating 44.1kHz, so it appeared to be working as advertised.  Very promising I have to say.  I'll give this a more thorough test when I have some time.

Presumably, you are listening to this via a Windows machine since Firefox always uses the default Windows audio device which appears to be set to 16/44.1kHz and hence the Devialet's indication. The stream is actually 16/48kHz as has been pointed out above, so you will need to change the Windows default audio device's setting to match in order to have bit perfect output to the Devialet.

[Confused]

40 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

Presumably, you are listening to this via a Windows machine since Firefox always uses the default Windows audio device which appears to be set to 16/44.1kHz and hence the Devialet's indication. The stream is actually 16/48kHz as has been pointed out above, so you will need to change the Windows default audio device's setting to match in order to have bit perfect output to the Devialet.

Yes, you are absolutely right!  I did try this in a rush yesterday.  Normally I stream to the Devialet via mR/Mutec, but to try this I switched to Devialet's AIR streaming.  When I saw the Dev was running at 44.1kHz, I just assumed it was a 16/44.1 feed.  Later in the evening I read the posts above and realised what I'd done!  I only ever use Devialet AIR for compressed web based stuff like YouTube, and keeping the settings at 16/44.1 helps stability with the sometimes unpredictable AIR streaming.  I tried it again later, the Windows soundcard settings for the Devialet were indeed at 16/44.1, I changed this and the Devialet then indicated 48kHz as you would expect.  It sounded OK when I listened at the 'suboptimal' 44.1, to be honest.  When I have some time over the weekend I try a more extended listen at full fat bit perfect 48kHz.  Should be interesting.  I wonder if this would work at 24/192 or similar?  It does seam an awful lot easier than all this MQA stuff! 

[miguelito]

@Miska: Could you please explain how to put a flac stream in HQPlayer's playlist? Thank you!

[bogi]

7 hours ago, Cebolla said:

Firefox always uses the default Windows audio device

 

This thread shows how you can route all Windows sounds through Virtual Audio Cable (bit perfect Kernel Streaming) to audio device of your choice.

Later in that thread I showed more complicated setup how to route all Windows sounds to ASIO device of your choice. Optionally, that includes also possibility to use free ASIO proxy to convert all Windows sounds to DSD 'on the fly'.

[bogi]

6 hours ago, miguelito said:

how to put a flac stream in HQPlayer's playlist

 

See an example here:

But the BBC stream seems to be other format, as Cebolla pointed to in the 2nd post of this thread.

[Bystander]

Works great using the latest nightly build of VLC 3.0.0!

 

 

[miguelito]

3 hours ago, bogi said:

 

This thread shows how you can route all Windows sounds through Virtual Audio Cable (bit perfect Kernel Streaming) to audio device of your choice.

Later in that thread I showed more complicated setup how to route all Windows sounds to ASIO device of your choice. Optionally, that includes also possibility to use free ASIO proxy to convert all Windows sounds to DSD 'on the fly'.

Do you have a way to make this INTO HQP?

[bogi]

8 hours ago, miguelito said:

Do you have a way to make this INTO HQP?

 

Not exactly this.

You can get all Windows sounds into HQPlayer, but I know only a solution using foobar2000 and limited for fixed sample rate and bit depth. You can try the following:

1. Set a virtual cable product as both default input and default output in Windows Control Panel | Sound.
   For example set both to Line 1 from Virtual Audio Cable product (or use VB-Audio HiFi Cable).
   Set them to a common sample rate and bit depth according to your music source.
2. Use foo_record Recorder component in foobar2000 to play Windows default sound input through foobar2000.
   Configure it for the same bit rate and bit depth you used in point 1.
3. Use the solution from my signature to stream all sounds from foobar2000 to HQPlayer, set it to the same bit rate and bit depth you used in previous points: Stream to HQPlayer Desktop from foobar2000

I can play all Windows sounds this way as DSD128 via my HQPlayer NAA.

[Cebolla]

19 hours ago, bogi said:

On 13/04/2017 at 1:11 PM, Cebolla said:

Firefox always uses the default Windows audio device.

This thread shows how you can route all Windows sounds through Virtual Audio Cable (bit perfect Kernel Streaming) to audio device of your choice.

 

Not sure I follow how this would specifically help @Confused, given that the Devialet's AIR Streaming Windows audio device can be made the default Windows audio output device, in common with any other Windows audio device.

 

Of course if you were making some sort of general statement, then of course I agree, as I regularly use the donationware VB-Audio HiFi Cable which performs a similar function (for streaming to UPnP/DLNA renderers, including Chromecast Audios emulated as such, via the foobar2000 + foo_record + foo_upnp method you also mention above - though I use the foo_out_upnp plugin too).

 

Incidentally, using the Virtual Audio Cable or its VB-Audio equivalent would still require you setting it as the default Windows output device to redirect Firefox's audio, plus configure it to 16/48kHz for bit perfect access to the BBC pilot radio stream, regardless of what audio device you are redirecting the audio to.

[bogi]

I answered to miguelito

[Cebolla]

On 14/04/2017 at 7:36 PM, bogi said:

I answered to miguelito

Ok, understood.

 

BTW, using the latest nightly version of VLC 3.0.0 mentioned above by @Bystander  is another way of obtaining the BBC pilot radio stream. You can get that version of VLC to transcode the MPEG-DASH FLAC stream to a normal FLAC stream via its http file server. I've tried it myself, using the command line:

vlc "https://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/client_manifest.mpd" :sout=#transcode{vcodec=none,acodec=flac}:http{mux=flac,dst=:8080/bbcr3.flac}

 

(the quotes around the stream's URL aren't necessary but I had to place them as this editor is interfering giving errors )

This produces a transcoded stream at http://aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd:8080/bbcr3.flac

where aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd is the IP of the machine running VLC.

 

The advantage of this method is of course no use of Firefox and redirecting of Windows audio output. However, I'm not sure how well the nightly VLC's MPEG-DASH FLAC decoder is working, as it reports decoding the 16/48kHz stream to 32/48kHz. Also, oddly, the players other than another VLC instance (foobar2000, OpenHome Player on a Raspberry Pi & a Pioneer N-50 streamer) I've tried receiving the transcoded FLAC stream, report it as 24/48kHz.

[bogi]

I downloaded the latest nightly build and tried the transcoding. It's a pity that HQPlayer Desktop doesn't understand the transcoded stream. HQPlayer detects the existence of the stream (it allows to insert it to HQPlayer playlist), but it it is unable to play it.

 

EDIT: I pointed Miska to this thread and posted my HQPlayer log excerpt in HQPlayer thread.

[Confused]

I spent a bit of time listening to the BBC 'Taster' feed today.  I think it is impossible for me to draw any definitive conclusions to how good or bad it sounds in relative terms, it is not the kind of music I would typically listen to and I have no direct references as a comparison.  Having said that, I think I can conclude that in absolute terms it does sound pretty decent.

 

One observation I can make is that during the musical performances I was generally very impressed with the quality of reproduction, clarity and resolution were good throughout the frequency range, decent dynamics and so on, all reasonably impressive.  However, during the studio discussions I did not think it sounded so good, a case of there being a degree of sibilance in the voices.  Maybe bad microphone implementation in the studio?  I am not sure.

 

During the performances though, no obvious negatives stood out, so it was a case of being able to listen to the music undistracted by any such niggles.  Personally I would have to say well done to the BBC for trying this kind of thing.  A national broadcaster having a go at simple 'hires' streaming, without any of the MQA folding and deblurring confusions, this has to be commended in my opinion.  I wonder if they will ever extend the trial to 24/192 or similar?