What are the best passive speakers with $20000-$30000 budget

[Silly goose]

Just now, cjf said:

I'm curious why you think the Salk's you listed are a $25K speaker? They appear to have way too many large drivers contained within their lightweight cabinet for optimal operation.

 

I've owned similar speakers in the past (Like Legacy mentioned earlier) where they put a bunch of large drivers into a fairly lightweight cabinet and while it sounds pretty decent they certainly don't sound anything like a $25K speaker

Well the cabinets are 126 lbs each. I wouldn't consider them light weight. These are Salk speakers not Legacy. Legacy doesn't use RAAL tweeters and Accuton mids. They use Chinese drivers these days. So you heard these speakers? Seems like folks who heard them have higher opinions of them than folks who only seen pictures. 

[cjf]

Nope haven't heard the Salks and have no interest in doing so. I was under the impression that you were interested in hearing speakers that perform on the 20-30K playing field and not one's that somehow manage\claim to do so for 1/4-1/2 of that price.

 

In the grand scheme of things a 126lb speaker is light when it has to control the resonance of that many large cubic inch drivers even if they are mounted in opposition to each other to help better handle that choice of hardware.

 

The use of RAAL tweeters and Accuton Mids is great but if those drivers are being shaken around by all those large diameter woofers due to the lightweight cabinet it means very little what Mid/Tweeter is being used.

 

Do you have any pictures of the internal guts of the Salks? I would be very curious to see it if you did.

[Silly goose]

All of the manufacturers are telling me standard dealer markup is double what the manufacturer gets. and that's after all of the shipping cost to the dealer. Personally I'd rather buy 2 sets of speakers factory direct for the same price as 1 set from a dealer. And if the manufacturer uses a distributor they say the MSRP can even be 3X what the manufacturer gets. Sorry not for me. 

[Silly goose]

5 minutes ago, cjf said:

Nope haven't heard the Salks and have no interest in doing so. I was under the impression that you were interested in hearing speakers that perform on the 20-30K playing field and not one's that somehow manage\claim to do so for 1/4-1/2 of that price.

 

In the grand scheme of things a 126lb speaker is light when it has to control the resonance of that many large cubic inch drivers even if they are mounted in opposition to each other to help better handle that choice of hardware.

 

The use of RAAL tweeters and Accuton Mids is great but if those drivers are being shaken around by all those large diameter woofers due to the lightweight cabinet it means very little what Mid/Tweeter is being used.

 

Do you have any pictures of the internal guts of the Salks? I would be very curious to see it if you did.

So you really think the extra 24 lbs of the S3's is a game changer? I bet for a few more grand Salk could mill the SS8 cabinets out of billet aluminum as well. And they would only charge the material cost difference. I know several machine shops more than capable myself. 

 

No I have no pictures of the internals. But I'm more of a "try before I judge" kinda guy. Not "look at pictures and use my godlike abilities to give a full evaluation" kind of guy. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

19 minutes ago, Silly goose said:

So you really think the extra 24 lbs of the S3's is a game changer? I bet for a few more grand Salk could mill the SS8 cabinets out of billet aluminum as well. And they would only charge the material cost difference. I know several machine shops more than capable myself. 

 

No I have no pictures of the internals. But I'm more of a "try before I judge" kinda guy. Not "look at pictures and use my godlike abilities to give a full evaluation" kind of guy. 

 

The aluminum game isn't for the novice or guy not well versed in manufacturing loudspeakers. 

 

There are reasons that only a few manufacturers produce loudspeakers from aluminum. It's not easy and it costs a ton. 

 

I definitely hear you about dealer mark-up, but you should also consider that a good dealer can make or break the sound in one's house. Also, if direct sell companies are marketing the fact they have no dealer mark-up, do you really think you are getting the price as if there was going to be a dealer? Meaning, the manufacturer hasn't bumped the price to somewhere between what a dealer would charge and his wholesale cost. Also, the manufacturer is also building in cost of supporting the speakers etc...

[coot]

On 4/8/2017 at 9:21 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

That's one brand I've never understood. Nothing against it, but just don't get it's raison d'etre. 

 

What do you know about it?

Don't understand your question/comment, Chris. They don't have as much right to be in business as any others? They make some partially-powered units with dsp is why I suggested them here. I have their very early (c. 1985) Signature IIs still in my HT system performing well. Wish I was closer to a dealer to hear their newest models.

[Silly goose]

20 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

The aluminum game isn't for the novice or guy not well versed in manufacturing loudspeakers. 

 

There are reasons that only a few manufacturers produce loudspeakers from aluminum. It's not easy and it costs a ton. 

 

I definitely hear you about dealer mark-up, but you should also consider that a good dealer can make or break the sound in one's house. Also, if direct sell companies are marketing the fact they have no dealer mark-up, do you really think you are getting the price as if there was going to be a dealer? Meaning, the manufacturer hasn't bumped the price to somewhere between what a dealer would charge and his wholesale cost. Also, the manufacturer is also building in cost of supporting the speakers etc...

I would probably just take the Salk's as they are originally designed if I was to buy them. I understand the value a dealer can bring for some people, but for me as long as I have the product, I can figure out the best way to position them in my room. They may bump the cost a bit more, but they also have to ship them an extra time, and then they add the shipping into the 2x markup as well.  The 2x cost is based on their landed cost once they are in the dealer's possession. So that's more money wasted. When I look at dealer sold speakers that use similar drivers, crossover components, and cabinets as Salk, they cost way over double the cost. But of course I will audition first hand before offering my personal opinion of cost vs performance. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

10 minutes ago, coot said:

Don't understand your question/comment, Chris. They don't have as much right to be in business as any others? They make some partially-powered units with dsp is why I suggested them here. I have their very early (c. 1985) Signature IIs still in my HT system performing well. Wish I was closer to a dealer to hear their newest models.

 

I do that understand your comment about some right to be in business. Did anyone suggest anything of the sort?

 

I asked a question about the company because I know nothing. Usually companies have a hook or something that sets them apart from the others. That's what I'm interested in finding. 

[Silly goose]

4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I do that understand your comment about some right to be in business. Did anyone suggest anything of the sort?

 

I asked a question about the company because I know nothing. Usually companies have a hook or something that sets them apart from the others. That's what I'm interested in finding. 

I have looked into Legacy. They have been around forever. I remember seeing the Ad's in Stereophile back in the mid 90's. They used to use high end European drivers, but seems as their brand grew stronger, they started using cheaper drivers, and upping the cost. Might also be due to the fact they added dealers when they used to direct sell exclusively. But unless I personally auditioned them myself, I'm in no position to judge. 

[fragoulisnaval]

PMC MB2 SE

[Ralf11]

If a "bricks & mortar" dealer provides added value over a click (or you wish to see them stay around for some other reason) then buy from a dealer and consider that any added cost is going to the value added.

 

If a dealer thinks they can do biz as usual on a old model, then they will be displaced, like Sears.

[semente]

3 hours ago, Silly goose said:

Well the cabinets are 126 lbs each. I wouldn't consider them light weight. These are Salk speakers not Legacy. Legacy doesn't use RAAL tweeters and Accuton mids. They use Chinese drivers these days. So you heard these speakers? Seems like folks who heard them have higher opinions of them than folks who only seen pictures. 

 

Subjective reviews are of little worth to anyone other than the reviewer, even professional ones, for they are almost always heavily biased by taste.

Not more relevant than common sense or educated guesses...

 

R

[Silly goose]

3 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Subjective reviews are of little worth to anyone other than the reviewer, even professional ones, for they are almost always heavily biased by taste.

Not more relevant than common sense or educated guesses...

 

R

Yes which is why I will audition these speakers myself before making any judgement's on them. However all it takes is common sense to figure out the exact same drivers, crossover parts and cabinet quality that sells for double to triple from dealers, can be found from direct sellers for 1/2 to 1/3rd the price. Some may argue the engineering is difficult. But the days of building passive speakers being a "voodoo art" have long passed. We have CAD modeling, and all sorts of sophisticated software tools at our disposal. We have SOTA CNC milling machines to ensure perfect cuts. Besides Salk hires well known 3rd party engineers to do the cabinet and crossover designs anyways. The same engineers who design many speakers sold through brick and mortar. Selling direct was a marketing decision by the manufacturers. If they sold the exact same products through a dealer network for double to triple the price, it would still be the exact same product. They wouldn't bring me any more listening pleasure in my home if I paid the dealer markup. 

[semente]

1 minute ago, Silly goose said:

Yes which is why I will audition these speakers myself before making any judgement's on them. However all it takes is common sense to figure out the exact same drivers, crossover parts and cabinet quality that sells for double to triple from dealers, can be found from direct sellers for 1/2 to 1/3rd the price. Some may argue the engineering is difficult. But the days of building passive speakers being a "voodoo art" have long passed. We have CAD modeling, and all sorts of sophisticated software tools at our disposal. We have SOTA CNC milling machines to ensure perfect cuts. Besides Salk hires well known 3rd party engineers to do the cabinet and crossover designs anyways. The same engineers who design many speakers sold through brick and mortar. Selling direct was a marketing decision by the manufacturers. If they sold the exact same products through a dealer network for double to triple the price, it would still be the exact same product. They wouldn't bring me any more listening pleasure in my home if I paid the dealer markup. 

 

I won't go into the dealer markup fight but I would argue that the engineering is indeed difficult, and judging from my listening experience as well as available measurements quite a few models aren't up to scratch.

RAAL tweeters or aluminium cabinets are not by any means a guarantee of good performance.

 

R

[Silly goose]

Just now, semente said:

 

I won't go into the dealer markup fight but I would argue that the engineering is indeed difficult, and judging from my listening experience as well as available measurements quite a few models aren't up to scratch.

RAAL tweeters or aluminium cabinets are not by any means a guarantee of good performance.

 

R

Everything is difficult if you don't know how to do it. But Salk uses seasoned veteran designers for both cabinet and crossover design. Accuton and RAAL make phenomenal drivers used in many $100000+ brick and mortar sold speakers. I know this is no guarantee of a quality end product, but it still wouldn't be if the exact same product was sitting in a dealer showroom for double to triple the price. Salk has been around for over 15 years. Their client feedback is phenomenal. There's no reason I should be afraid to deal with them. 

[TubeLover]

On 4/6/2017 at 10:04 PM, sdolezalek said:

If you truly want "all-American" go visit Magnepan and listen to the 20.7's. They are below your price range, but will outdo many if not most of the speakers in that price range if you are a flat-panel person.  

+1, these are magical speakers, and made entirely in the US, with US components!

 

JC

[Silly goose]

Just now, TubeLover said:

+1, these are magical speakers, and made entirely in the US, with US components!

 

JC

I've heard maggies in the past and really liked the sound. I think first up is the Dynaudio Focus 60. I'm just dying to hear it. Then off to Salk sound to see if their offerings can come close, or surpass from a passive design. Then from there probably Joseph Audio, to see if the much higher price is justified vs the Salk. 

[TubeLover]

13 hours ago, Silly goose said:

Thanks guys. I've been researching and I think if I was to go passive, I'd go with something from Salksound. Since they sell direct, they can offer a $25000 speaker for only $8995. Paying dealer mark up adds no value to me. I'm travelling to audition speakers right at the factories anyways. These Soundscape 8's look phenomenal. 

 

http://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=SoundScape+8

I would also seriously recommend a visit to meet Jim Salk, hear his speakers and look at the magnificent cabinetwork that they also provide. They also have unequaled service and when you call them, Jim Salk is the one answering your call! I spent a few hours last December at the shop/factory and was extremely impressed. I would have absolutely purchased speakers from them if I had not been made an offer I couldn't refuse on a last minute, year end deal. They will also do a custom variation for you on many of their speakers to suit your needs. 

 

JC

[Silly goose]

Just now, TubeLover said:

I would also seriously recommend a visit to meet Jim Salk, hear his speakers and look at the magnificent cabinetwork that they also provide. They also have unequaled service and when you call them, Jim Salk is the one answering your call! I spent a few hours last December at the shop/factory and was extremely impressed. I would have absolutely purchased speakers from them if I had not been made an offer I couldn't refuse on a last minute, year end deal. They will also do a custom variation for you on many of their speakers to suit your needs. 

 

JC

Yes I've been researching his work heavily over the last couple days. I'm extremely impressed with what I've read and seen pictures of. Seems like a genuine salt of the earth guy, running a solid business to me. 

[semente]

3 hours ago, Silly goose said:

I've heard maggies in the past and really liked the sound. I think first up is the Dynaudio Focus 60. I'm just dying to hear it. Then off to Salk sound to see if their offerings can come close, or surpass from a passive design. Then from there probably Joseph Audio, to see if the much higher price is justified vs the Salk. 

 

Why not compare Dynaudio active vs. passive instead?

[Silly goose]

6 hours ago, semente said:

 

Why not compare Dynaudio active vs. passive instead?

I will be. It will be interesting to see if a $30000-40000 system with the Dynaudio passives can compete with the $13500 Focus 60's. . 

[Silly goose]

I'll also be ordering the new Hedd type 20's with Ravenna bridge as soon as B+H has them in stock. They will be for my office. Since they are studio monitors, they will be extremely accurate which is what I like. 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, Silly goose said:

I'll also be ordering the new Hedd type 20's with Ravenna bridge as soon as B+H has them in stock. They will be for my office. Since they are studio monitors, they will be extremely accurate which is what I like. 

 

 

 

Very cool. I love modular designs with different cards etc...

[Silly goose]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Very cool. I love modular designs with different cards etc...

Yes I'm very excited about these. Coolest design I've seen. You should review some. Only $239 for the Ravenna bridge which also has on-board DAC. I'm curious how it will compete against stand alone DAC's via the analog inputs. 

[peabreu]

Raidho, cant go wrong with those. Most perfect highs ever and simply amazing...but I think they are Danish as my beloved Audiovectors.