Bullwinkle Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Would it be possible to build a server using a 12-volt-only motherboard and linear power supply? Reading on Wikipedia about the ATX power standards, I encountered this interesting section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_supply_unit_(computer)#12.C2.A0V.E2.80.93only_supplies "12 V–only supplies Since 2011, Fujitsu and other tier-1 manufacturers have been manufacturing systems containing motherboard variants that require only a 12 V supply from a custom-made PSU, which is typically rated at 250–300 W. DC-DC conversion, providing 5 V and 3.3 V, is done on the motherboard; the proposal is that 5 V and 12 V supply for other devices, such as HDDs, will be picked up at the motherboard rather than from the PSU itself, although this does not appear to be fully implemented as of January 2012. The reasons given for this approach to power supply are that it eliminates cross-load problems, simplifies and reduces internal wiring that can affect airflow and cooling, reduces costs, increases power supply efficiency, and reduces noise by bringing the power supply fan speed under the control of the motherboard. At least two of Dell's business PCs introduced in 2013, the Optiplex 9020 and Precision T1700, ship with 12 V–only power supplies and implement 5 V and 3.3 V conversion exclusively on the motherboard." Now, unlike ATX linear power supplies that seem to be made by only a couple of companies (HDPlex, Teradak... is that all?), 12V-only linear power supplies seem to be a commodity. For instance: http://www.acopian.com/single-l-goldbox-m.html http://www.mouser.com/Power/Power-Supplies/Linear-Power-Supplies/_/N-brwqi?P=1yzrc3dZ1yx5k7vZ1yxt7ffZ1yxt791&Ns=Output+Power|1 ...and others. Many are made for medical devices (a big market segment) and need pretty tight regulation. As for the motherboards, a quick search last night found that the Dell Precision T1700 mobo is readily available from a variety of sources. It's Ivy Bridge and so will take some of the i7 and Xeon processors, and supports some of the PCIe one needs for fast SSDs. Any thoughts on this route? I get the sense that people already want to power a fancy USB card with a separate external linear power supply. So why not just skirt the ATX standard, I wonder? I am no electronics wizard, but is this feasible in principle for DIY? Link to comment
Popular Post plissken Posted March 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2017 This is more common in the data center where you do house DC and it drives all the servers, routers, switches. I'll take simplification where I can and I have had my audio setup driven with some sort of standard DC supply since 2009. Bullwinkle and Jud 2 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 maybe run your audio system directly off your solar panels and Tesla battery system or your Ballard fuel cell AC may not be the future Bullwinkle 1 Link to comment
Bullwinkle Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 It looks like the mobo of two current Dell Precision Workstations (the 3420 and 3620) are also these 12V-only boards. I say "looks like" because I can't find documentation that says so... but the power connectors on these two boards are also the 4-pin and 8-pin connectors that you find on the 1700 mobo (which is 12V-only) and there is no 24-pin ATX connector to be seen. The 3420 and 3620 mobos have c236 chipsets, and so support most of the latest bells and whistles. I see the 3620 mobo for sale various places, around a c-note in price. Link to comment
jkelly Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 I use Dn2800mt motherboards for Roon server and Roon Bridge(s). They have a 12 volt power plug. They have been the best sounding motherboards for me. The problem is they can play DSD but they don't have the power to upsample to DSD. They can upsample PCM. So I use Aul Converter to create DSD256 files. I use one with Windows Server 2012 and AO. I am also playing with Audio Linux. I run Ubuntu 16.04 server with Roon bridges. Low-latency kernels. Basic just ssh. I use this for my headphone system. Holo Spring Dac Level 3. Crack amp with tubes/mods and HD650 cans. You can get them for around $60 on eBay if you make offers. Need to add ram, drive and linear supply. $90. Best to try to find one complete. Jeff Bullwinkle 1 Qobuz - HQPlayer(d) 5 - M1 Mini - RPI 5 8gb - Nuc i7 - Signature Silver DC - Keces P3 PS - Lush USB - Holo Spring Dac - SRC-DX - Chord Mojo2 - Bottlehead Crack Upgraded w/ GEC or Tung-Sol 6as7/vt231 - Triode Wire Labs AC - HD-650 - GR Research V2 - Dennis Murphy Pioneer BS22 - B&W 602 S2 - Apple Music Spatial 7.1.4 Link to comment
hometownwesty Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 As far as I can tell the Supermicro X11SSV-series also has a 12v dc connection which can be used alternatively to the regular 24 pin ATX. Seems like a good candidate for me, as I could compare a linear PSU directly into the 12v dc in to a hd plex HiFi PSU into the 24 pin. Bullwinkle 1 Link to comment
Bullwinkle Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 I just picked up a used Acopian 12v power supply on Ebay and hope for the best. A coincidence--I was looking at those Supermicros last night too! My thanks to jkelly and hometown westy! Link to comment
Bullwinkle Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 Looking at the manuals for those Supermicro X11SSV boards, I'm beginning to suspect that we want to be careful about the "12-volt-only" capabilities. Specifically these boards also have a 4-pin power connector (designated jp1) whose pinout has both a 12v and 5v pin. The manuals say this connection is needed for onboard HDD connections. This MAY mean that with a 12-volt-only connection to the 8-pin JPW2 connector, and nothing else, you wouldn't be able to successfully connect (say) a SATA3 drive. Maybe you are stuck with an SSD via the M.2 slot, which might be fine but most of us would want to be able to have some TBs of SATA3 too. Thoughts? Am I confused? Link to comment
SwissBear Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Have you had a look at this kind of boards which seem 12v only: http://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-H110TN-rev-10#ov Bullwinkle 1 Link to comment
Bullwinkle Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 Thank you SwissBear! This looks like an excellent option with no worries about powering onboard SATA. Link to comment
Bullwinkle Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 @SwissBear and @jkelly I am thinking that if one went with an LGA1151 board such as the Gigabyte board SwissBear pointed at, one would want to choose a low wattage processor to keep things cool (ha ha) in a fanless setup. On the other hand, as jkelly points out, too weak a processor and one wouldn't be able to do some of the things folks here like to do. So here is a list of the lowest-wattage CPUs supported by the Gigabyte GA-H110TN. These are 35W processors. That is in the neighborhood of (I think at least) seven times the Watts of the pico processors one finds in a solution like jkelly's Dn2800mt. So first--is 35W too hot to get away with a fanless setup (big badass heatsink for convection cooling)? If so, question two is among the 35W processors listed below, which seem just powerful enough for the typical chores this group asks of a processor? CPU model Freq l3 cache core name Core i3-7300T 3.50GHz 4MB KabyLake Core i3-7100T 3.40GHz 3MB KabyLake Pentium G4600T 3.00GHz 3MB KabyLake Core i7-7700T 2.90GHz 8MB KabyLake Pentium G4560T 2.90GHz 3MB KabyLake Core i5-7600T 2.80GHz 6MB KabyLake Core i5-7500T 2.70GHz 6MB KabyLake Celeron G3930T 2.70GHz 2MB KabyLake Core i5-7400T 2.40GHz 6MB KabyLake Core i3-6300T 3.30GHz 4MB Skylake Core i3-6100T 3.20GHz 3MB Skylake Pentium G4500T 3.00GHz 3MB Skylake Pentium G4400T 2.90GHz 3MB Skylake Core i7-6700T 2.80GHz 8MB Skylake Core i5-6600T 2.70GHz 6MB Skylake Celeron G3900T 2.60GHz 2MB Skylake Core i5-6500T 2.50GHz 6MB Skylake Core i5-6400T 2.20GHz 6MB Skylake Link to comment
SwissBear Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Some realizations you might want to look at in order to get inspiration: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/25149-design-a-pcserver-for-roon-and-hq-player/?do=findComment&comment=636903 https://www.endpcnoise.com/gaming-pcs/h5-fanless-gaming-pc Bullwinkle 1 Link to comment
Bullwinkle Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 Thanks SwissBear, those are very helpful links. Link to comment
Superdad Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 Most all of the current Intel NUC motherboards will run from just a 12V supply. You are much better off putting the supply external to the case. But then I am biased as I build and sell a popular choke-filtered, dual-output, 5-7 amp LPS. Also, having the DC-DC switching converters on the motherboard does not offer much advantage over choosing the ATX mobo you want and plugging in a picoPSU to drop the 12V to 5V and 3.3. Comes complete with the harness and everything. Bullwinkle 1 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Bullwinkle Posted April 17, 2017 Author Share Posted April 17, 2017 Thank you Superdad. This is actually the route I've taken over the past couple of weeks (a good quality LPS outside the case, feeding a small dc to atx ps inside the case, which in turn feeds the atx mobo I want). Link to comment
Superdad Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 12 hours ago, Bullwinkle said: This is actually the route I've taken over the past couple of weeks (a good quality LPS outside the case, feeding a small dc to atx ps inside the case, which in turn feeds the atx mobo I want). That's great. Gives you more flexibility in the long run. UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
kilroy Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 HDPlex also makes the HiFi DC ATX that lives inside the case and takes power from an external PS. A fancier unit perhaps than the pico, certainly more filtering. Not 12V though. I use mine with an HDPlex LPS with 19V in. Link to comment
Lebouwsky Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 I'm confused...... My Windows 10 server (laptop, powered by its battery) runs minimserver, music is stored locally on a ssd, streaming files to a sms-200. Does it even makes sence to optimise the server (lpsu, AO, passive cooling, etc) in this setup? Some people on this forum say it does, other say the server can be as noisy as can be. If it does, there are lots of tweaks to be done. If it doesn't, it would save a lot of money. Link to comment
tedwoods Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 57 minutes ago, Lebouwsky said: I'm confused...... My Windows 10 server (laptop, powered by its battery) runs minimserver, music is stored locally on a ssd, streaming files to a sms-200. Does it even makes sence to optimise the server (lpsu, AO, passive cooling, etc) in this setup? Some people on this forum say it does, other say the server can be as noisy as can be. If it does, there are lots of tweaks to be done. If it doesn't, it would save a lot of money. There is no easy answer to that question... I suppose it is a bit case specific, as most things these days. However, since I have a similar server scenario to yours, my experience so far has been that hardware-wise, I cannot for the life of me detect any strong server sound signature in a typical server/endpoint scenario. However, I can detect small differences which most usually have to do with two things: cleaner power and software: using a good psu and trimming down W10 or using Linux perhaps as a means of optimizing the PC's performance can result in a small, but noticeable improvement. I haven't obviously tried everything at the hardware side, and YMMV of course, but that has been my experience so far. For me, endpoint optimization has resulted in a more clear and noticeable improvement. I think that if I were to mention everything by order of magnitude, it would look like this: Hardware 1. linear psu for sms-200 2. linear psu for network switch and modem/router 3. ethernet filter/isolator Running linear psu's made a dramatic difference in my system. The isolator less so, but it did improve the high frequencies quite noticeably. I had decent Audioquest and Supra ethernet cables to begin with, so I didn't test those. Software 1. Using the xtr family filters in HQ Player has made the strongest impact on SQ I have ever experienced from all software tweaks I've ever done combined and multiplied by one hundred!!! 2. Using NAA on its own 3. Trimming down W10 (like AO) and using Fidelizer Pro I will continue to experiment however, keep an open mind and check out everything (..well, almost everything) the good folks in this forum try. I know from experience that opinions, as well as "undisputed truths" for that matter, change more frequently than not. The old Socratic paradox "I know that I know nothing" might prove quite useful when approaching computer audio... Link to comment
Bullwinkle Posted April 22, 2017 Author Share Posted April 22, 2017 6 hours ago, Lebouwsky said: I'm confused...... Frankly, me too. What I will say is that for me this is a hobby with multiple dimensions. One of the dimensions is technical exploration. I'm willing to wander down a fruitless path or two provided it doesn't cost me too much, and I get substantial yuks from goofing around with computers. All in good fun. Link to comment
Lebouwsky Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 On 22-4-2017 at 7:18 PM, tedwoods said: There is no easy answer to that question... I suppose it is a bit case specific, as most things these days. However, since I have a similar server scenario to yours, my experience so far has been that hardware-wise, I cannot for the life of me detect any strong server sound signature in a typical server/endpoint scenario. However, I can detect small differences which most usually have to do with two things: cleaner power and software: using a good psu and trimming down W10 or using Linux perhaps as a means of optimizing the PC's performance can result in a small, but noticeable improvement. I haven't obviously tried everything at the hardware side, and YMMV of course, but that has been my experience so far. For me, endpoint optimization has resulted in a more clear and noticeable improvement. I think that if I were to mention everything by order of magnitude, it would look like this: Hardware 1. linear psu for sms-200 2. linear psu for network switch and modem/router 3. ethernet filter/isolator Running linear psu's made a dramatic difference in my system. The isolator less so, but it did improve the high frequencies quite noticeably. I had decent Audioquest and Supra ethernet cables to begin with, so I didn't test those. Software 1. Using the xtr family filters in HQ Player has made the strongest impact on SQ I have ever experienced from all software tweaks I've ever done combined and multiplied by one hundred!!! 2. Using NAA on its own 3. Trimming down W10 (like AO) and using Fidelizer Pro I will continue to experiment however, keep an open mind and check out everything (..well, almost everything) the good folks in this forum try. I know from experience that opinions, as well as "undisputed truths" for that matter, change more frequently than not. The old Socratic paradox "I know that I know nothing" might prove quite useful when approaching computer audio... Thank you for sharing, really helpfull. May I ask, do you do DSD? And have you tryed the bridged ethernet connection? Link to comment
hurka Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 My mobo run with Ultracapacitors,Ssd,fan,cpu,mouse,keyboard... Smps.Dac,ddc 6 rail U caps. Link to comment
tedwoods Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 I did some sort of blunder...Please check below Link to comment
tedwoods Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 12 hours ago, Lebouwsky said: Thank you for sharing, really helpfull. May I ask, do you do DSD? And have you tryed the bridged ethernet connection? I do DSD exlusively, as I have built my system around my Lampizator Euforia DAC, which is DSD only. As a musician, I am finding myself drawn towards DSD more. It sounds more "real" to me as far timbre and attack are concerned, but also somehow manages to capture the feeling of the original analog master tapes better. Not all DSD is created equal of course: I have heard DSD which is too soft or too airy, as of course PCM that's too dry or mechanical, but among the best variants of each, at least the ones I got to hear under ideal conditions so far, DSD has my vote. I also find RBCD material, which comprises most of my library, quite un-listenable without some form of upsampling, which also means that I have to run DSP and when it comes to that, the logic and functionality of DSP done at the server side via software also gets my vote and the necessity of using of a server/endpoint scenario is undisputed. I have indeed tried the direct connection (using the DHCP method). It sounds a bit more "raw" to me, as opposed to to the more "tactile" sound of going through a switch. In all honesty, I cannot yet pinpoint what factors create what and how they interact with each other, so the jury is still out on that. Link to comment
Lebouwsky Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 DSD dacs can't read PCM, they need to convert PCM into DSD. There's no such thing as a hybrid PCM/DSD dac. In an article I've red that most DSD dacs are not very good in doing this PCM to dsd conversion. That might explain why PCM files, upsampled (by for example hqplayer) to a DSD file sound better on a DSD dac compared to that same PCM file but converter to DSD by the DSD dac. That might explain why people prefer DSD, right? This does not apply to "real DSD files" If that is true, one can only judge if PCM sounds better when upsampled to DSD and converted by a true DSD DAC, if it is compared to that same PCM file but converted by a true PCM DAC of the same league. Somehow I've got the feeling if one is in the possession of a good dac like the Yggdrasil or an AMR dp777-se you're just fine. It may be different when you've got a big "true dsd" library. I absolutely have no clue what it's got to do with a 12 volt motherboard. What I do know is that I don't like to be pushed towerds a powerfull (and expensive) i7 server, combined with having to invest in another dsd dac. I'm biased, I know. Link to comment
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