earnmyturns Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Delta-sigma DACs are DSD natives, they have to do mess with PCM before they can convert it. R2R DACs are PCM natives, they need to go through hoops to handle DSD. Most DACs people use to are delta-sigma, so no surprise that other things being equal they do better with DSD. It does not follow that DSD is also better for R2R DACs, in fact I'd be kind of surprised it were given the (lossy) contortions needed. I own a Yggy (R2R) and I have a Holo Spring level 3 on order (also R2R, but very different design from the Yggy). The Holo Spring process DSD, but reviewers have uniformly preferred its NOS PCM mode. Link to comment
GUTB Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 BTW, I'm still not clear on how a transistor ladder in the Holo can process 1-bit streams. Link to comment
GUTB Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Also, here is the MSB Diamond IV's 24-bit sine wave: And the Yggdrasil's: OUCH! manisandher 1 Link to comment
manisandher Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 I mentioned the Yggy's zero-crossing glitching a while ago. And I personally didn't like the way it sounded compared to my regular DAC - I still have the digital captures of the Yggy's analogue output that clearly demonstrate that the Yggy changes the sound of the original files in a way that my regular DAC doesn't. JA's measurements weren't very complimentary either. He finished his review with this: While the processor's analog circuitry is superbly well designed, its digital circuitry appears to have problems with high-level, high-frequency tones, and with the LSBs of 24-bit data. It's possible, of course, that the former will be rare with music, and that the latter will be obscured by the noise floors of recordings. But it does look as if the digital circuitry is not fully optimized. [Highlights mine.] My feeling was that these shortcomings were indeed audible. But many (most?) Yggy owners love the way it sounds... Mani. Jud 1 Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
Popular Post gmgraves Posted March 30, 2017 Author Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2017 1 hour ago, GUTB said: Also, here is the MSB Diamond IV's 24-bit sine wave: And the Yggdrasil's: OUCH! Doesn't matter. They still sound essentially identical. I still don't quite understand why you are so negative about the Yggy. What other DAC in this price range performs anywhere near as well (especially if you don't have to use USB!). I would expect a $35,000 DAC Like the MSB Diamond V to beat the pants off a sub $2500 DAC. That it doesn't speaks to the diminishing returns of increasing cost vs performance. dtb300, LarryMagoo and MrMoM 3 George Link to comment
Popular Post Speed Racer Posted March 30, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2017 20 minutes ago, manisandher said: I mentioned the Yggy's zero-crossing glitching a while ago. And I personally didn't like the way it sounded compared to my regular DAC - I still have the digital captures of the Yggy's analogue output that clearly demonstrate that the Yggy changes the sound of the original files in a way that my regular DAC doesn't. JA's measurements weren't very complimentary either. He finished his review with this: [Highlights mine.] My feeling was that these shortcomings were indeed audible. But many (most?) Yggy owners love the way it sounds... Mani. Not this crap again........now that I have an Yggdrasil I think you are more full of it than before. You, like JA, must have something against Schiit Audio. LarryMagoo and mwb 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post manisandher Posted March 30, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2017 11 minutes ago, Speed Racer said: Not this crap again........ What parts of my post were crap? That the Yggy has zero-crossing glitching distortion? That I personally didn't like the sound of the Yggy when I had it here for a few weeks? That the Yggy has problems with high level, high frequency tones? That the Yggy has problems with the LSBs of 24-bit data? You don't have to get all upset just because my opinion of the Yggy is different to yours. Mani. Jud and semente 2 Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
Speed Racer Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 25 minutes ago, manisandher said: What parts of my post were crap? That the Yggy has zero-crossing glitching distortion? That I personally didn't like the sound of the Yggy when I had it here for a few weeks? That the Yggy has problems with high level, high frequency tones? That the Yggy has problems with the LSBs of 24-bit data? You don't have to get all upset just because my opinion of the Yggy is different to yours. Mani. I see one thing on that list that is right. That you don't like the sound of an Yggy. Jud 1 Link to comment
manisandher Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 53 minutes ago, Speed Racer said: I see one thing on that list that is right. That you don't like the sound of an Yggy. Only one thing? Well, let's have a closer look then. Let's compare the performance of the Yggy with the Auralic Altair, a considerably cheaper DAC. 1. Yggy vs. Altair 19.1kHz -4dBFS white noise 2. Yggy vs. Altair 1kHz -90dBFS noise 3. Yggy vs. Altair 1kHz -90.31dBFS undithered 4. Yggy 50Hz -10dBFS into 600 ohms vs. Altair 50Hz 0dBFS into 600 ohms This one's interesting - the Yggy's output had to be reduced due to severe clipping! 5. Yggy vs. Altair 19+20kHz 0dBFS into 100k ohms 6. Yggy vs. Altair 11.025kHz -6dBFS If anything, I think GUTB's "ouch" was understated. Everything I stated in my earlier post was factually correct. I have nothing against Schiit. I've only tried one of their products, the Yggy. Didn't like what I heard. Looked into it. Found the engineering wanting. Nothing more, nothing less. Mani. Jud 1 Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
Jud Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 12 hours ago, Speed Racer said: Mike came back and told me this: "Two phase halves summed yield an extra 6 db (1 Bit) of resolution." So there is the 21st bit for Yggy and the 19th bit for Gumby! http://m.electronicdesign.com/analog/when-1-1-3-db-averaging-adc-channels-improve-nsd Speed Racer 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 6 hours ago, Speed Racer said: I have to laugh. You realize that is an SNR of 158.28.....if you believe that number, I have a bridge I well sell you, cheap! Yes, but please realize that is exactly the same theoretical max calculation (individual chip bits plus extra for summing multiple balanced channels) from which the Yggdrasil 21 bit figure is derived. So whatever the actual Yggy noise floor/dynamic range figure is in real world measurements, the simple 21-bit calculation doesn't give you that answer. MikeyFresh 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 6 hours ago, gmgraves said: SPDIF and AES/EBU sound better than USB, anyway. As always, this depends on individual implementations. USB can obtain lower jitter numbers, SPDIF doesn't have to deal with data packets, power conductor in the cable, etc. Specific implementations deal with these disadvantages more or less successfully. MikeyFresh 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
crenca Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 7 hours ago, earnmyturns said: Delta-sigma DACs are DSD natives, they have to do mess with PCM before they can convert it. R2R DACs are PCM natives, they need to go through hoops to handle DSD. Most DACs people use to are delta-sigma, so no surprise that other things being equal they do better with DSD. It does not follow that DSD is also better for R2R DACs, in fact I'd be kind of surprised it were given the (lossy) contortions needed. I own a Yggy (R2R) and I have a Holo Spring level 3 on order (also R2R, but very different design from the Yggy). The Holo Spring process DSD, but reviewers have uniformly preferred its NOS PCM mode. Be sure to write a review/comparison when you have a chance to! Anyone else compare these two side by side? Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 9 hours ago, TubeLover said: I had not previously heard about this. Is anyone aware of what John Atkinson was exactly referring to when he called the Yggdrasil "obsolete"? I have significant respect for John, and his ears, but that's a ludicrous statement at best. And please tell me it wasn't associated with lacking MQA compatability because that would deserve a term beyond ludicrous. JC Such a statement has likely been good for business for both parties. There's no such thing as bad press, unless your Bill Cosby or Michael Richards. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 8 hours ago, gmgraves said: SPDIF and AES/EBU sound better than USB, anyway. 2 hours ago, Jud said: As always, this depends on individual implementations. USB can obtain lower jitter numbers, SPDIF doesn't have to deal with data packets, power conductor in the cable, etc. Specific implementations deal with these disadvantages more or less successfully. I found AES to be the best Yggy interface. I unequivicolly love this DAC. dtb300 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 I think people suggesting the Yggy has engineering or design flaws are really overreaching. If you were present during the design discussions, I would be more apt to listen to you. However, every design has trade offs. What's gained or given up for each decision. Everything in the Yggy is by design and it's one of my favorite DACs. To me, they made great trade offs. mwb 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post manisandher Posted March 30, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2017 19 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: To me, they made great trade offs. Auralic seem to have made better ones Mani. semente and Jud 2 Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
crenca Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 8 minutes ago, manisandher said: Auralic seem to have made better ones Mani. Perhaps "seem" is the key word. I would not be surprised if the basic AKM chip in the $99 Schiit Modi (or the DAC in my cell phone, or the one in my budget AVR) had measurements that were much closer to the Auralic Altair than the Yggy. Indeed, is not that one of the central accomplishments and strengths of relatively low priced chip based delta sigma dacs? Yet, we don't usually claim that these trump everything else. Look at me ma! I am arguing from the subjectivist side of things!! MikeyFresh 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
earnmyturns Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 52 minutes ago, crenca said: Anyone else compare these two side by side? A couple of detailed comparos in other forums, search is your friend Link to comment
earnmyturns Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Measurement truthers out in force again... Very curious... MikeyFresh 1 Link to comment
Jud Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 15 minutes ago, manisandher said: Auralic seem to have made better ones Mani. In terms of certain measurements and the listening preferences of some people, yes. De gustibus non disputandem and all that. Said in defense of both your preference for other DACs and information marshalled in support of same, and others' preference for Yggy and information marshalled in support of it. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 25 minutes ago, manisandher said: Auralic seem to have made better ones Mani. How so? Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
manisandher Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 23 minutes ago, Jud said: In terms of certain measurements and the listening preferences of some people, yes. De gustibus non disputandem and all that. Hey Jud, you know I have a penchant for R2R DACs. I just prefer them to use chips designed specifically for audio, be able to accept the 24/705.6, and have decent measurements (at least an order of magnitude better than the Yggy). Mani. Jud 1 Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
manisandher Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: How so? Because the Yggy has ended up with below par measured performance in many areas, and below par sound (to my ears). I think they made a massive mistake going for the DAC chips they did. But if you or others like the sound of it, that's fine. I haven't heard the Altair, and probably wouldn't like it much because it uses an SDM chip. But at least its measured performance looks OK. Mani. Jud 1 Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
Popular Post JoeWhip Posted March 30, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2017 I now have the Yggy and have played master files of tracks I was there during the recording and mixing process and couldn't disagree any more strongly with Mani. This DAC is superb. Let's not relitigate this topic again. Pointless. MikeyFresh, mwb, dtb300 and 4 others 7 Link to comment
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