Just got a Yggdrasil!

[Speed Racer]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

It's rounded to 24 bits if at all.  21 bits has to do with dynamic range above the noise floor, not internal math.  21 bits is starting to get down into the thermal noise of the equipment.

 

Mike said, over on Head-Fi, said "DSP processor in all Schiit multibit gear is 32 bit, waaaaaay overkill". He went on to say that, for the 16-bit DACs,  "the data is rounded to 16 bits" before being sent to the DAC chip. Based on comments over on SBAF made by by Jason Stoddard, they round to 21 bits in Yggdrasil. This was in response to a discussion regarding comments made by John Atkinson of Stereo Review in regards to Yggdrasil an truncating to 21 bits. Jason said they rounded, not truncated.

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

It's a 20-bit DAC in a 32-bit world. But more to the point, it doesn't support DSD or DXD.

 

Native DSD is very very good and DXD sounds amazing. A Yggdrasil owner will never get to enjoy those.

 

Also, high end DACs can resolve 24 bits of high definition audio...the Yggdrasil can't.

 

With all due respect, WRT DSD and DXD, saying that Yggy owners will never get to enjoy these is something you can't possibly know. The Yggy was designed to be upgradable and has multiple daughter boards to facilitate adding function. In fact, the front panel has an extra LED that is not being used put there to allow for just such an upgrade. Mike Moffat decided to not support Direct Stream Digital initially, because he felt that there wasn't enough call for it and he wanted to concentrate on getting the LPCM right. He told me that if DSD ever became a major market consideration, that he would add it to the Yggy, hence the unused resolution light on the front panel!

[GUTB]

5 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

With all due respect, WRT DSD and DXD, saying that Yggy owners will never get to enjoy these is something you can't possibly know. The Yggy was designed to be upgradable and has multiple daughter boards to facilitate adding function. In fact, the front panel has an extra LED that is not being used put there to allow for just such an upgrade. Mike Moffat decided to not support Direct Stream Digital initially, because he felt that there wasn't enough call for it and he wanted to concentrate on getting the LPCM right. He told me that if DSD ever became a major market consideration, that he would add it to the Yggy, hence the unused resolution light on the front panel!

 

I agree that DSD isn't a major market force. But, the market a product like the Yggdrasil caters to is just the sort of market that would be interesting in exploring DSD -- currently, there are several high-volume consumer grade DAC chips that are capable of processing DSD natively, either as a true 1-bit stream or as a multi-bit stream. They are also capable of processing DXD, which, if you have heard it through a resolving DAC, is very nice. In fact, DXD with my system competes with native DSD -- it's not 1:1, as native DSD has a certain realism that PCM will never have, but DXD masters are really, really good. Yes, I know that there are hardly any DXD masters out there even compared to DSD.

 

Everyone should listen to a native DSD track through a high quality, resolving system. You won't understand how bad PCM is until you've heard the alternative.

 

Oh, I very much considering getting a Yggdrasil, just to compare best-in-price-class PCM vs native DSD and PCM upsampled DSD through I2S.

[Speed Racer]

Yes, PCM is so horrible......

[The Computer Audiophile]

19 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Everyone should listen to a native DSD track through a high quality, resolving system. You won't understand how bad PCM is until you've heard the alternative.

 

With all due respect to your opinions, I disagree 100%. There are too many variables involved to say definitively that DSD or PCM is better than the other, let alone to "understand how bad PCM is until you've heard the alternative." We have to take the recordings we get and listen to each one and decide which one we like best. 

[Jud]

35 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Mike said, over on Head-Fi, said "DSP processor in all Schiit multibit gear is 32 bit, waaaaaay overkill". He went on to say that, for the 16-bit DACs,  "the data is rounded to 16 bits" before being sent to the DAC chip. Based on comments over on SBAF made by by Jason Stoddard, they round to 21 bits in Yggdrasil. This was in response to a discussion regarding comments made by John Atkinson of Stereo Review in regards to Yggdrasil an truncating to 21 bits. Jason said they rounded, not truncated.

 

I read Jason's comments at Head-Fi, where he has his own area.

 

It is true the Yggdrasil (and any other DAC reducing bits on the way from processing to output) uses rounding rather than truncation, mathematically speaking.  I'm guessing (just a guess) that the discussion of 21 bits has to do with dynamic range rather than internal math, but I'm certainly ready to learn otherwise if you can give me a handy link.

[Speed Racer]

I wrote to Nick at Schiit Audio and asked him about this. He told me that Mike said that they round down to 20 bits before they pass the data to the DAC chip.

[Jud]

6 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

I wrote to Nick at Schiit Audio and asked him about this. He told me that Mike said that they round down to 20 bits before they pass the data to the DAC chip.

 

Thanks, 21 just sounded odd to me.

 

(OK, really bad pun there....)

[crenca]

3 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Some of you guys may not know, but recently Schiit got into an internet battle with John Atkinson (senior editor at Stereophile) who tweeted that the Yggdrasil was obsolete. Jason Stoddard blew a gasket and demanded that Atkinson amend the tweet, who stood by his statement. So Stoddard called up their Stereophile ad manager to make a last minute change to a certain ad placement:

 

 

Interesting.  On the one hand, I am glad to see JA stand for his editorial independence.  On the other hand, I wonder about his ability to evaluate things digital.  Certainly his (and all the rest of his editors) perspective on MQA (i.e. "birth of a new world", unwillingness to evauate it from a consumer and industry viewpoint, etc.) is skewed to say the least.  

 

I wonder what his stance is on all the tube based equipment that his publication rates as "class A" is...

 

[Speed Racer]

2 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Thanks, 21 just sounded odd to me.

 

(OK, really bad pun there....)

 

So, my question is how can you claim 21 bits of resolution when you only use 20 bits of data?

[crenca]

"Gungnir Multibit: Above and Beyond
Choose Gungnir Multibit, and you get the same proprietary closed-form DSP-based digital filter as Yggdrasil, coupled to four precision Analog Devices AD5781BRUZ digital to analog converters for true hardware balancing and 19 effective bits of resolution. The analog section is completed with discrete JFET buffers and summers, the same as Yggdrasil."

 

This from the Schiit page.  Anyone have any comments on the "precision" of the 5781 vs. the 5791 used in the Yggy?

[Speed Racer]

Comments? It's an 18 bit DAC chip.

[crenca]

5 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Comments? It's an 18 bit DAC chip.

 

So you believe in both cases (yggy and gungnir) Schiit is overstating the theoretical resolution by 1?

 

[Speed Racer]

4 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

So you believe in both cases (yggy and gungnir) Schiit is overstating the theoretical resolution by 1?

 

 

No, I don't. They use two per channel. I just don't understand the tech behind how they do it. Which is why I am asking for an explanation.

[Samuel T Cogley]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

Everyone should listen to a native DSD track through a high quality, resolving system. You won't understand how bad PCM is until you've heard the alternative.

 

I've heard lots and lots of both, and this is just bullocks.  You try both through a (for example) Lampizator Golden Gate and you tell me which you like better...

[Samuel T Cogley]

36 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Interesting.  On the one hand, I am glad to see JA stand for his editorial independence.  On the other hand, I wonder about his ability to evaluate things digital.  Certainly his (and all the rest of his editors) perspective on MQA (i.e. "birth of a new world", unwillingness to evauate it from a consumer and industry viewpoint, etc.) is skewed to say the least.  

 

I wonder what his stance is on all the tube based equipment that his publication rates as "class A" is...

 

 

Schiit are straight up heretics to the Pharisees over at Stereophile.  They've killed a LOT of other companies DAC products with their demonstratively disruptive DAC line.  Look how long it's taking for iFi to roll out the new iDSD Pro.  They're more than a year behind their original release date.  Is the Yggy the "end all" DAC?  Certainly not.  Is it one of the best sounding DACs available at its price?  I think so, and they're certainly sold a lot of them and even more Gumbys and Mimbys.  Might someone thinking about spending $5,000 on a DAC settle for a Yggy?  Quite possibly.  And THAT is what the "old guard" audiophile companies really hate about Schiit.

 

One dig I have about Schiit DACs:  the USB interfaces are electrically fragile.  I've had the USB board replaced in my Yggy and I've encountered a surprising number of others reporting the same thing about Yggys and Gumbys.  Since I got an iFi iLink, I just stopped using the USB port and stopped worrying about it.  And I think S/PDIF or AES/EBU sounds better on the Yggy anyway.

 

 

[Speed Racer]

Mike came back and told me this:

 

"Two phase halves summed yield an extra 6 db (1 Bit) of resolution."

 

So there is the 21st bit for Yggy and the 19th bit for Gumby!

[crenca]

9 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Schiit are straight up heretics to the Pharisees over at Stereophile.  They've killed a LOT of other companies DAC products with their demonstratively disruptive DAC line.  Look how long it's taking for iFi to roll out the new iDSD Pro.  They're more than a year behind their original release date.  Is the Yggy the "end all" DAC?  Certainly not.  Is it one of the best sounding DACs available at its price?  I think so, and they're certainly sold a lot of them and even more Gumbys and Mimbys.  Might someone thinking about spending $5,000 on a DAC settle for a Yggy?  Quite possibly.  And THAT is what the "old guard" audiophile companies really hate about Schiit.

 

One dig I have about Schiit DACs:  the USB interfaces are electrically fragile.  I've had the USB board replaced in my Yggy and I've encountered a surprising number of others reporting the same thing about Yggys and Gumbys.  Since I got an iFi iLink, I just stopped using the USB port and stopped worrying about it.  And I think S/PDIF or AES/EBU sounds better on the Yggy anyway.

 

 

 

The only Schiit DAC I have tried is the Modi Uber, which IMO had a bad case of "digititus" -  more than any other budget DAC I have tried (not that I have tried even a small % of what is out there of course).  I have enjoyed their HP amps and am currently using their Saga pre-amp however.  The best "budget" DAC I have owned (and currently use) is IFi's Micro line.  Heck, even their $199 Nano is too good for it's price point.  IMO (very ear dependent of course), iFi makes the best "budget" DAC's, surpassing most (if not all - not that I have tried most of them) sub $1k dacs (perhaps the Chord Mojo being the exception).  

 

However, I have as of late been considering ordering a Gungir multibit just for the heck

 

Your point about iFi and Schiit being direct competitors (and "heretics" to obscenely over-priced Hi-Fi as championed by Stereophile) is well taken.

[TubeLover]

9 hours ago, GUTB said:

Sorry, I meant resolution in terms of processing resolution. The AD5791 does 20 bits, and other high-end ladder DACs can do 24-bits and above.

 

Some of you guys may not know, but recently Schiit got into an internet battle with John Atkinson (senior editor at Stereophile) who tweeted that the Yggdrasil was obsolete. Jason Stoddard blew a gasket and demanded that Atkinson amend the tweet, who stood by his statement. So Stoddard called up their Stereophile ad manager to make a last minute change to a certain ad placement:

 

 

I had not previously heard about this. Is anyone aware of what John Atkinson was exactly referring to when he called the Yggdrasil "obsolete"? I have significant respect for John, and his ears, but that's a ludicrous statement at best. And please tell me it wasn't associated with lacking MQA compatability because that would deserve a term beyond ludicrous.

 

JC

[Speed Racer]

11 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

The MSB V Diamond can do 26-bit for example.

 

I have to laugh. You realize that is an SNR of 158.28.....if you believe that number, I have a bridge I well sell you, cheap!

[Speed Racer]

38 minutes ago, TubeLover said:

 

I had not previously heard about this. Is anyone aware of what John Atkinson was exactly referring to when he called the Yggdrasil "obsolete"? I have significant respect for John, and his ears, but that's a ludicrous statement at best. And please tell me it wasn't associated with lacking MQA compatability because that would deserve a term beyond ludicrous.

 

Mr. Atkinson either had a bad day or has it out for Schiit Audio. I hear it is the later. I also don't think he really understands the subject matter.

[gmgraves]

6 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Schiit are straight up heretics to the Pharisees over at Stereophile.  They've killed a LOT of other companies DAC products with their demonstratively disruptive DAC line.  Look how long it's taking for iFi to roll out the new iDSD Pro.  They're more than a year behind their original release date.  Is the Yggy the "end all" DAC?  Certainly not.  Is it one of the best sounding DACs available at its price?  I think so, and they're certainly sold a lot of them and even more Gumbys and Mimbys.  Might someone thinking about spending $5,000 on a DAC settle for a Yggy?  Quite possibly.  And THAT is what the "old guard" audiophile companies really hate about Schiit.

 

One dig I have about Schiit DACs:  the USB interfaces are electrically fragile.  I've had the USB board replaced in my Yggy and I've encountered a surprising number of others reporting the same thing about Yggys and Gumbys.  Since I got an iFi iLink, I just stopped using the USB port and stopped worrying about it.  And I think S/PDIF or AES/EBU sounds better on the Yggy anyway.

 

 

SPDIF and AES/EBU sound better than USB, anyway.

[earnmyturns]

7 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

No, I don't. They use two per channel. I just don't understand the tech behind how they do it. Which is why I am asking for an explanation.

The balanced setup contributes 6 db == 1 bit of dynamic range. 

[Speed Racer]

7 minutes ago, earnmyturns said:

The balanced setup contributes 6 db == 1 bit of dynamic range. 

 

Look at 7 posts up......

[earnmyturns]

1 minute ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Look at 7 posts up......

Yech, saw it too late, still not used to the new site layout.