Does optical isolation reduce the need for improving the power supplies upstream?

[BigAlMc]

Hi All, 

 

I'm posting for the first time but am a big fan of these forums and would like to thank all the contributors for all the helpful information I've found over the years. 

 

This may be a dumbass question but here goes. 

 

Current setup is 10m Cat7 Ethernet from router to switch (TP link tl-sg108). The iFI Ipower powering the switch. And 2 x 1m Audioquest cinnamon ethernet cables connecting the NAS and the DAC (PS Audio directstream). 

 

I've been reading a lot about the benefits of optical isolation and am considering giving it a go as for a fairly modest outlay it seems a reasonable experiment in this quest for ever improving our SQ! 

 

Setup would probably be 2 TP link MC200CM optical converters and a 0.5m run of optical cable between the switch and the DAC. So far so good in terms of I'm comfortable with what needs done and how to do it. 

 

My concern is that I would then have 4 powered items (2 MC200CM, the switch and the NAS) all potentially adding noise and nagging at me to get them better power supplies (linear or whatever like the iFI). 

 

But then the whole point of the optical isolation is to isolate any upstream network noise from reaching the DAC. 

 

(the DAC and Amp are on an IsoTek mains conditioner already whereas the network kit isn't). 

 

So does the optical isolation mean I can move the iFI Ipower to the last MC200CM before the DAC and don't need to worry about the power supplies to the now isolated network kit upstream of that? 

 

Or is this wishful thinking and I'm still going to need to fret, stress, research and lets face it, probably enjoy, buying better power supplies throughout the network chain? 

 

Thanks in advance for any advice and thoughts. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

[DavidL]

Alan

 

When I set up my optical isolation I reasoned I only needed to worry about the stuff in the last leg to the Renderer/DAC so I bought linear power supplies for the converters. Remember also switched-mode power supplies can (will) generate air-born RF if they are too close to the renderer/DAC - my first converter is about 3ft away.

 

BTW you need to check that your renderer/DAC can accept GB ethernet streams from the MC200CM converters - some can't. I got the MC100 converters which are limited to 100/10 MBps ethernet and had no problems with drop-outs etc.

 

David

 

[Cornan]

7 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Hi All, 

 

I'm posting for the first time but am a big fan of these forums and would like to thank all the contributors for all the helpful information I've found over the years. 

 

This may be a dumbass question but here goes. 

 

Current setup is 10m Cat7 Ethernet from router to switch (TP link tl-sg108). The iFI Ipower powering the switch. And 2 x 1m Audioquest cinnamon ethernet cables connecting the NAS and the DAC (PS Audio directstream). 

 

I've been reading a lot about the benefits of optical isolation and am considering giving it a go as for a fairly modest outlay it seems a reasonable experiment in this quest for ever improving our SQ! 

 

Setup would probably be 2 TP link MC200CM optical converters and a 0.5m run of optical cable between the switch and the DAC. So far so good in terms of I'm comfortable with what needs done and how to do it. 

 

My concern is that I would then have 4 powered items (2 MC200CM, the switch and the NAS) all potentially adding noise and nagging at me to get them better power supplies (linear or whatever like the iFI). 

 

But then the whole point of the optical isolation is to isolate any upstream network noise from reaching the DAC. 

 

(the DAC and Amp are on an IsoTek mains conditioner already whereas the network kit isn't). 

 

So does the optical isolation mean I can move the iFI Ipower to the last MC200CM before the DAC and don't need to worry about the power supplies to the now isolated network kit upstream of that? 

 

Or is this wishful thinking and I'm still going to need to fret, stress, research and lets face it, probably enjoy, buying better power supplies throughout the network chain? 

 

Thanks in advance for any advice and thoughts. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

 

Hi Alan!

 

FMC path is a option of adding two power supplies with noise into the chain. Now, for audio you want to limit the power supplies to a minimum. I have jumped into the FMC bunny hole and can tell you that BOTH uphill and downhill PSU makes a difference. I can also tell you that a wireless bridge/adapter connected to a grounded network switch sounds better than FMCs, especially with short Cat6a U/UTP cables, battery powered network switch (disconnected to AC mains while in use), wireless bridge/adapter connected to a IT with floating secondary OR powered by a PSU with output floating relative to the safety ground and router powered powered the same way! ? 

There is always choises! ?

[BigAlMc]

4 hours ago, DavidL said:

BTW you need to check that your renderer/DAC can accept GB ethernet streams from the MC200CM converters - some can't. I got the MC100 converters which are limited to 100/10 MBps ethernet and had no problems with drop-outs etc.

 

David

 

 

Hi David - thanks for the feedback. Yeah I read on the PS Audio forum that other users had struggled with a gigabit connector when implementing optical isolation. 

 

The MC100 is cheaper too so there's a good case for looking into this route. And improving the power for just the last couple connections before the DAC appeals. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[BigAlMc]

32 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

Hi Alan!

 

FMC path is a option of adding two power supplies with noise into the chain. Now, for audio you want to limit the power supplies to a minimum. I have jumped into the FMC bunny hole and can tell you that BOTH uphill and downhill PSU makes a difference. I can also tell you that a wireless bridge/adapter connected to a grounded network switch sounds better than FMCs, especially with short Cat6a U/UTP cables, battery powered network switch (disconnected to AC mains while in use), wireless bridge/adapter connected to a IT with floating secondary OR powered by a PSU with output floating relative to the safety ground and router powered powered the same way! ? 

There is always choises! ?

 

Hi Corman, 

 

Thanks for the info. Tho admittedly I'm a little lost. And there was me thinking I knew pretty much what was involved :-) 

 

I'm intrigued by the suggestion of using a wireless bridge/adapter. I thought the idea was to use wired wherever possible. I assume the suggestion is that a fairly contained / close wireless connection beats optical isolation? Is that what you meant? 

 

Also for the wireless bridge and grounded network switch do you mind pointing me in the direction of the kit you are using or suggesting? Just names / models I mean - I'll Google them. 

 

Battery powered network switches is certainly interesting. In your experience is it much hassle replacing/recharging batteries? 

 

You've certainly got me thinking so thanks again. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Hi Corman, 

 

Thanks for the info. Tho admittedly I'm a little lost. And there was me thinking I knew pretty much what was involved :-) 

 

I'm intrigued by the suggestion of using a wireless bridge/adapter. I thought the idea was to use wired wherever possible. I assume the suggestion is that a fairly contained / close wireless connection beats optical isolation? Is that what you meant? 

 

Also for the wireless bridge and grounded network switch do you mind pointing me in the direction of the kit you are using or suggesting? Just names / models I mean - I'll Google them. 

 

Battery powered network switches is certainly interesting. In your experience is it much hassle replacing/recharging batteries? 

 

You've certainly got me thinking so thanks again. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

 

If you want try to try out the wireless adapter to network switch here is a cheap option to try:

 

1. Wireless adapter like TP-Link AC 1750 RE450 or similar (set to 5Ghz only, static IP and DHCP off). Connect to a IT with floating secondary like for example B&K 1604A. 

You can also try to find a wireless ac bridge that is possible to power with 5v with similar result. Just add a powerbank with single output and disconnect the charger while listening to music. The important thing is that it is fully galvanicly isolated from the safety ground.

 

2. D-Link DSG-105 Network switch or similar with aluminium case (run a simple thin gauge copper or silver wire from GND screw to a free safety ground pin). Power it by a SINGLE USB ( not dual) output chepeo powerbank. Disconnect charging while listening to music.

 

3. Chepeo short (30 to 50cm) Cat6a U/UTP cables. Used between wireless adapter>network switch>music source (streamer/pc etc)

 

4. Make sure to power the router with a PSU with floating output relative to the safety ground. A cheap one is for example Gophert CPS-3205II https://banggood.app.link/wclB3lb9lB. You will need to get a screw terminal DC plug to add to the supplied lab cable (instead of the crocodile  clips) or buy a 4mm banana to DC2,1/5,5mm for the power input to the router on ebay. Use Cat6a U/UTP if RJ45 input and if satellite cable use a DC blocker like the Axing DC blocker or similar.

 

With this path the router is fully isolated from the music source and from the "outside world", the network switch ensure Gigabit speed to the steamer/pc and grounding ensures that the network switch noises is drained to ground.

FMCs sounds good as well, but IMO the wireless adapter path sounds much more "natural/smooth" and not as "edgy/harsch" as FMCs.

 

I hope that helps! ?

 

 

 

 

 

[BigAlMc]

Thanks Cornan (and apologies for misspelling your name in my previous reply). 

 

I'll take a look as clearly have more research to do. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[Cornan]

7 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Thanks Cornan (and apologies for misspelling your name in my previous reply). 

 

I'll take a look as clearly have more research to do. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

You're welcome Alan!

No problem with the misspelling. ?

If you're using a PC and a streamer you can also have a look at a bridged direct connection. That would normally involve Roon, AO, Fidelizer Pro and Process Lasso as additional pc software and is explained on this thread https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-sms-200-and-microrendu/

You still need to care about the network power for best results, so it will be a much higher price to pay than if you choose the wireless bridge/adapter path. Worth checking out though if you're using a both a PC and a streamer.

[BigAlMc]

Hi Cornan, 

 

Thanks for the advice. And no offence but I've browsed a few of your threads and kudos to you but you seem way ahead of me in technical abilities. I'm worried about burning the house down trying to manually ground stuff! 

 

Put another way I'm more comfortable trying to implement optical isolation (even if that means I need to live with the worry your suggestion was better!) 

 

So the question becomes: What is the optimal optical isolation setup? 

 

So breaking it down it sounds like I need FMCs, optical cable and decent power on all the upstream of dac equipment. 

 

Can I therefore ask for recommendations on best (within reasonable  cost) for:

 

FMCs: I'm thinking TP link MC100CM (over MC200CM due to PS Audio compatibility with gigabit). 

 

Fibre optic cable: For a short run, 1metre or thereabouts - any suggestions for best cables and available in the UK? 

 

Power supplies. I have one iFI Ipower. Powering my current switch. Not sure if it makes a difference tbh as bought at same time as switch on recommendation. 

 

I think I need better power to 2 FMCs, the switch and the NAS. Ideally I'd like something like the Wired4sound PS1 that powers all 4 dc devices. But at end of the day want best performance to cost ratio for powering all the upstream devices in a way that doesn't add noise. So any suggestions for best LPS solution or solutions? 

 

So in summary I'm looking for suggestions for the best kit to implement optical isolation and better upstream power but in a cost effective (ideally well under a grand) way. 

 

Cornan - I'm not ruling out your approach. Just shelving it as above my ability for now. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[jabbr]

5V batteries are a great way to power the FMCs -- the USB -> power adapter (2.1) cables are cheap. They will ensure complete galvanic isolation across the Ethernet -- if you use the same supply for both FMCs then you risk leakage across the power supply. You can also use cheap LPS -- no need to go crazy with fancy supplies for the FMC.

 

Optical cables for Ethernet are uniformly high quality. If you want something really good, get one made from Corning ClearCurve fiber. OM3 rating for multimode is fine.

 

i don't worry about the PSU for my NAS -- it's connected to my optical switch through an Intel x520 NIC. Likewise my Brocade fiberoptic switch has a stick PSU.

[Cornan]

Hi Alan!

 

I understand, I really do! However, it might sound more complicated than it is IRL. It is equally complicated with FMCs and usually requires long runs of odd coloured optical cables running between the router and audio setup. If you want to get best possible sound with FMCs you still need to power them galvanicly isolated from the safety ground. External grounding of the downhill FMC is recommended but not required! ?

 

Anyway, as @jabbr already told you batteries are exellent for FMCs, but requires that you disconnect the charger while listening to music. Start with the more sensitive downhill FMC and see what you think. No need for a fancy battery either. Just a single output powerbank like for example TP-Link Vivid 6700mAh. Uphill FMC is less important but do make a difference as well. No point using a LPS on the uphill FMC. You'll need 100% isolation from the safety ground on that spot to hear the difference IME. The sq difference also highly depends on how well your router is powered and Isolated.

 

 

[Speed Racer]

Gigabit Ethernet already provides galvanic isolation. Why go through the complexity and cost of using optical when you don't need to?

[Cornan]

22 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Gigabit Ethernet already provides galvanic isolation. Why go through the complexity and cost of using optical when you don't need to?

 

Gigabit ethernet and fiber-optical approach requires almost the same complexity. Remember that both approaches are galvanicly isolated in the signal path and neither of them have the DC output isolated from the ac mains safety ground. The latter is what both approaches are struggeling with and why both needs a fairly "complicated" setup to perform the best IMO.

 

If you keep in mind that the isolation battle are on two fronts it makes it easier to understand. IC isolation and AC/DC isolation. Also remember that not all galvanic isolation are perfect.

[Cornan]

4 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Fibre optic cable: For a short run, 1metre or thereabouts - any suggestions for best cables and available in the UK? 

 

I used Digitus fiber-optical cables myself. They are in great quality. Avoid chinease fiber-optical cables.

5 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

FMCs: I'm thinking TP link MC100CM (over MC200CM due to PS Audio compatibility with gigabit). 

MC100CM are great. They can be powered with both 5v and 9v power supplies. Since I am in China right now and have bad wifi connection I cannot give you good ideas on other power supplies right now. It just takes too long to Google them for you. Just take one step at a time. Start with MC100CMs,fiber-optical cable and single outout powerbank for downhill FMC and worry about the uphill FMC later on. Remember that you'll need a USB to DC cable as Jabbr told you. MC100CM works with both DC2.1/5.5mm AND DC2.5/5.5mm.

[BigAlMc]

Thanks @jabbr & @Cornan

 

The shopping list seems to be coming together. Might be able to pull the trigger for this weekend 

 

The TP-Link Vivid 6700mAh PS and full isolation from the mains appeals.

 

Having to plug/unplug from the mains when listening to music doesn't really appeal. I want to have my cake and to eat it in terms of I'm basically lazy  and don't want listening to music to involve a NASA mission control-like array of checks and switches before I can play any music.

 

Would using a mains timer device such as the Eursonic ES113 and setting it to charge the battery PS between say midnight and 8am each night count as having it unplugged from the mains when listening to music? Or is there still a connection (ground or whatever) even when the timer is set to Off?

 

Also I hadn't even thought about the router. Would moving my existing iFi IPower LPS to the router and then using the TP-Link Vivid 6700mAh on the last FMC before the DAC make sense?

 

Though for less than 30gbp for the TP-Link Vivid 6700mAh I'd be happy to buy three and use them on both FMC's and the Switch if that was a sensible setup.

 

Many Thanks,

Alan

[jabbr]

There's lots than be done and it can get as complicated as you want. 

 

The dual bank floating PSU design is ideal but how much effect it would have on switch and NAS etc is unclear -- probably law of diminishing returns. I do keep a small fiber switch in my audio area supplied by a LPS the "el cheapo" which can be found on eBay.

[Cornan]

5 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Would using a mains timer device such as the Eursonic ES113 and setting it to charge the battery PS between say midnight and 8am each night count as having it unplugged from the mains when listening to music? Or is there still a connection (ground or whatever) even when the timer is set to Off?

 

Yes, it will work with a mains timer. It will completely cut of the power and safety ground.

 

5 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Also I hadn't even thought about the router. Would moving my existing iFi IPower LPS to the router and then using the TP-Link Vivid 6700mAh on the last FMC before the DAC make sense?

 

Makes perfect sence! IFi iPower is not totally isolated but it is way better than using the routers supplied SMPS. You will hear that sq change clearly and immediately if you listen to online music like Tidal for example, but should also improve on music stored on a NAS. Tp-Link Vivid with a mains timer will improve the downhill FMC as well, so it will likely be a good start.

[Cornan]

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Though for less than 30gbp for the TP-Link Vivid 6700mAh I'd be happy to buy three and use them on both FMC's and the Switch if that was a sensible setup.

 

The only sensible setup is the one you choose to use! ? Remember that I recommended a wireless adapter into a network switch. I have'nt actually tried a FMC into a network switch and cannot tell you if it is good or not. Worth a try though if you have a network switch collecting dust! I for one would'nt be surprised if it would improve upon the MC100CMs since it will ensure a prioritized connection (if the network switch uses QoS). If you try be sure to use port 1 for input and the last port as output (port 5 for a 5 port switch) since the last port usually have highest priority (with D-Links QoS atleast).

[Cornan]

@BigAlMc

What you should never forget is to have fun. If you find tweaking boring avoid it! Personally tweaking, music & hifi is sharing my interests equally. That's a good reason why the actual experiments amuse me a lot. If it does'nt amuse you I recommend you to take the quickest path from A to B with the tweaks. It have to be a fun experience to be worth the efforts! ? 

 

Ever wonder why musicians does'nt care that much about SQ? The answer is in the question! They care 100% about music! ?

[Cornan]

Here is my reason why I normally prefer battery to LPS. I do not want to stick my head into a sworm of bees, but I personally I believe that the advantage with LPS compared to battery is mostly due to torque. Getting a battery with a higher amperage output will reduce the torque advantage with LPS and let the battery perform on the same battlefield (as long as it is fully charged), plus also highlight the advantages with battery supplies (=proper galvanic isolation, ie when used disconnected to AC mains). However, if a LPS is seriously constructed with DC output floating relatively to the safety ground this would normally be a better option to a battery supply. Why? Because the built up static electricity due to the constant connection to AC mains while charging will effectively reduce sq. Just my two cents until I am proven wrong (which I entend put to the test myself when I receive my Gophert PSU).

[BigAlMc]

1 hour ago, Cornan said:

@BigAlMc

What you should never forget is to have fun.

 

That's the best advice yet! 

 

FWIW, it is fun. I just balk at getting a degree in electrical engineering or having to hit 17 switches before I can listen to music each time.

 

I think the timer on the chargers for the BPS solves the latter part.

 

4 hours ago, jabbr said:

a LPS the "el cheapo" which can be found on eBay.

 

I found a few results for el cheapo but I'm not sure it's the right ones. Can you give me a manufacturer and model please?

 

Also would these be an improvement on the iFI? 

 

The IFI is 50 gbp here so assuming el cheapo lives up to it's name then I'd be interested in exploring.

 

The shopping list and weekend playing around with it seems to be taking shape!  

 

Thanks again guys for all the help and input!

[Cornan]

@BigAlMc

I think this post would interest you 

Since it was posted pre the CA update you might need to translate it yourself. The result is interesting though! ?

[Cornan]

Rewinding back to your original question: 

Does optical isolation reduce the need for improving the power supplies upstream?

No it does'nt, but it all depends on how good the upstream router is powered and how well the routers input is isolated. Bad further upstream isolation= no! & good further upstream isolation= yes! I'll guess that will answer that question! ?

[jabbr]

5 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

That's the best advice yet! 

 

FWIW, it is fun. I just balk at getting a degree in electrical engineering or having to hit 17 switches before I can listen to music each time.

 

I think the timer on the chargers for the BPS solves the latter part.

 

 

I found a few results for el cheapo but I'm not sure it's the right ones. Can you give me a manufacturer and model please?

 

Also would these be an improvement on the iFI? 

 

The IFI is 50 gbp here so assuming el cheapo lives up to it's name then I'd be interested in exploring.

 

The shopping list and weekend playing around with it seems to be taking shape!  

 

Thanks again guys for all the help and input!

 

This is what I have or close to what I have to power my NAA: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Finished-65VA-Ultra-Low-Noise-linear-Power-supply-5V-9V-12V-15V-18V-etc-/121970182193?hash=item1c65fd4831:g:VCsAAOSwT6pV3oqJ

 

Why don't you compare the iFi that you have against an inexpensive battery supply (double service as backup power for your cell phone) and decide if its worth the hassle. If you hear an improvement then you can decide.

[The Computer Audiophile]

On 3/28/2017 at 7:33 PM, Speed Racer said:

Gigabit Ethernet already provides galvanic isolation. Why go through the complexity and cost of using optical when you don't need to?

 

If I remember correctly, the shield is the problem with isolation in Ethernet cables. It isn't isolated. 

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.