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Some speakers slant, some don't. Why?


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1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

I'm pretty sure Vandersteen has never gone in for Kevlar.  Carbon fiber or fiber/balsa sandwich, maybe.

 

The reviews is pretty worthless in that respect.

The specs page mentions 4.5" midrange unit with patented, low-diffraction magnet, curvilinear polycone, and ferrofluid cooling

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7 minutes ago, semente said:

 

The reviews is pretty worthless in that respect.

The specs page mentions 4.5" midrange unit with patented, low-diffraction magnet, curvilinear polycone, and ferrofluid cooling

 

From Vandersteen's FAQs (http://vandersteen.com/support/faqs):

 

Quote

Cone materials that excel in one application may not be appropriate for another. For example, aluminum, Kevlar, and carbon fiber are very good for subwoofer cones and tweeter domes where they remain in the piston mode through the pass band and the inherent nasty peak from their first break-up mode is either way out of the pass band (subwoofer) or above audibility (tweeter). Woofers and midrange cones however, need a neutral material with high internal dampening like treated paper since their first break-up mode will be in or near the pass band. Since it is very difficult to control the initial quality of treated paper cones and to maintain the quality over time, we use proprietary or selected mineral filled polypropylene cones in these critical applications.

 

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

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3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

True - somebody post up a plot for a bad speaker...

How about a Zu Audio Soul Supreme

 

716ZUSSfig7.jpg

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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9 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I'd heard they sound really good, but...

.......they measure really bad.

 

I have not heard any.  They don't appear on several fronts to be a good design for the money.

 

Now I built a speaker very similar to those once.  A transmission line with a single driver of decent quality also featuring a whizzer cone.  Dead center it actually had okay response from 50 hz to 18 khz.  A little away from dead center it still made 11 khz pretty well.  My cabinet was better braced than Zu's.  The driver was light and very efficient (I think it was 96 db for one watt).  Full range driver so no crossovers to worry with.

 

It could be enjoyable to listen to actually.  It was very dynamic and alive sounding.  A good match for the old tube integrated amps which is what I build it for in the first place.  Those things had 15-18 wpc or so.  That is also the market often praising Zu.  Low powered tube amp users.

 

So musical enjoyment such a thing can provide (our golden ears are more forgiving than we think sometimes).  It didn't take more than a few seconds to switch on the good rigs and hear how colored those speakers were.  Yet that never kept the DIY speakers from being a fun listen either. 

 

I think I still have those in the basement somewhere.  Maybe I should pull them out and measure them with REW or something.  Of course that might interfere with my Klipsch Heresy project for the basement sound system I have in mind.  Found a working pair of Heresy speakers for $5 at a yard sale.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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12 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I'd heard they sound really good, but...

 

Sound perception have no common points for people. Because we can't access to foreign mind.

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1 hour ago, audiventory said:

 

Sound perception have no common points for people. Because we can't access to foreign mind.

 

I knew you were going to say that.

 

;)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Speaking about decay, I wonder how much it affects resolution / low-level detail retrieval...

 

Here are a few examples:

 

lft-16--decay-colour-2.gif

Eminent LFT-16

planar-magnetic tweeter and midrange, cone woofer below 

 

martin-logan-ethos-decay.jpg

Martin Logan Electromotion

electrostatic high/mid panel, cone woofer

 

amphionargon-l3-decaycolour.jpg

Amphion Argon 3L

dome tweeter, cone midwoofer

 

graham-audio-ls5-9-decay-ma.gif

Graham Audio LS5/9

dome tweeter, cone midwoofer

 

tannoy-kensngton-gr-delay-m.jpg

Tannoy Kensington

horn tweeter (compression driver), cone woofer

 

 

 

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

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You really can't judge a speaker by the printed graphs. Your room, your equipment, YOUR ROOM TREATMENTS all interact.

 

Just go listen and make the decision for yourself.

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Room change the plots of course. But tend (which have lesser "tail") is remains.

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On 3/27/2017 at 10:35 PM, semente said:

Speaking about decay, I wonder how much it affects resolution / low-level detail retrieval...

 

Here are a few examples:

 

lft-16--decay-colour-2.gif

Eminent LFT-16

planar-magnetic tweeter and midrange, cone woofer below 

 

martin-logan-ethos-decay.jpg

Martin Logan Electromotion

electrostatic high/mid panel, cone woofer

 

amphionargon-l3-decaycolour.jpg

Amphion Argon 3L

dome tweeter, cone midwoofer

 

graham-audio-ls5-9-decay-ma.gif

Graham Audio LS5/9

dome tweeter, cone midwoofer

 

tannoy-kensngton-gr-delay-m.jpg

Tannoy Kensington

horn tweeter (compression driver), cone woofer

 

 

 

 

Semente,

 

How do you interpret those graphs?  I can't make out the axis parameters.

Of the lot I really like those Graham Audio LS5/9 s - very engaging sound.

 

Regards.

 

  

 

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3 hours ago, Nikhil said:

 

Semente,

 

How do you interpret those graphs?  I can't make out the axis parameters.

Of the lot I really like those Graham Audio LS5/9 s - very engaging sound.

 

Regards.

 

  

 

 

3 hours ago, esldude said:

Frequency along the x axis 20 hz to 20 khz on the right.

 

Time along y axis with 0 at the top and a bit over 200 milliseconds along the bottom.  The right hand side indicates decibel level with color.

 

Normally I see those rotated 90 degrees from this orientation, but there is no standard for that.

 

Ideal would be a narrow band of red and yellow very near the top dropping to black quickly.  A 2D variation on the info contained in 3 D waterfall plots. 

 

Hi Nikhil,

 

@elsdude has anticipated himself and I have nothing to add to his reply, except I think that the graph might have been made clearer if time ("Y" axis) were to extend from bottom to top.

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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3 hours ago, esldude said:

A 2D variation on the info contained in 3 D waterfall plots. 

 

I like 2-D more for such measurement - more exact for learning.

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On 28 March 2017 at 2:37 AM, botrytis said:

You really can't judge a speaker by the printed graphs. Your room, your equipment, YOUR ROOM TREATMENTS all interact.

 

Just go listen and make the decision for yourself.

 

I agree with the underlined bit but if you are implying that a speaker with better decay characteristics with not have better decay in any room I would have to disagree.

But, of course, decay isn't everything.

 

Measurements focus on one particular aspect of performance and logically they do not characterise the whole sound of a speaker.

But some, like frequency response, have good correlation with listening and a comprehensive set, such as those provided by Sphile and Soundstage, is very informative.

 

Measurements are complementary to listening, they'll help you make a more informed (or learned) decision.

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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