Article: DTS Play-Fi Has Major Design Flaws

[The Computer Audiophile]

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[Axiom05]

Small point, but Sonos will play 16/44 & 16/48 files.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[james45974]

I wonder why the Play-Fi logo looks like a pair of devil horns?

[markebrauer]

I recently started using the Hi-Fi Cast Android app to stream FLAC files gaplessly from my DLNA server to Chromecast Audio. It works great but like Play-Fi runs all data through the controlling device. Fortunately it has the option to turn off gapless playback, then it streams directly from the server to the Chromecast, taking the phone out of the equation and working like casting is supposed to. My understanding is that DLNA has no innate gapless capability and that using intervening software (in this case on the controlling device) is the only way it can be accomplished. Is gapless playback from/to a variety of devices the reason Play-Fi chooses to do it this way? With Spotify of course, gapless playback is controlled by the Spotify server.

 

Even though this "pass-through" approach annoys the audiophile in me, I have to admit I notice no quality issues when using Hi-Fi Cast. It supports up to 192/24 but I have only tried it with 92/24 and 44/16. The first thing I listened to was Glenn Gould's 1981 Goldberg Variations, which absolutely needs gapless.

[mansr]

I recently started using the Hi-Fi Cast Android app to stream FLAC files gaplessly from my DLNA server to Chromecast Audio. It works great but like Play-Fi runs all data through the controlling device. Fortunately it has the option to turn off gapless playback, then it streams directly from the server to the Chromecast, taking the phone out of the equation and working like casting is supposed to. My understanding is that DLNA has no innate gapless capability and that using intervening software (in this case on the controlling device) is the only way it can be accomplished. Is gapless playback from/to a variety of devices the reason Play-Fi chooses to do it this way? With Spotify of course, gapless playback is controlled by the Spotify server.

 

Gapless support is optional for DLNA renderers. Chromecast, stupidly, doesn't support it.

[rn701]

I was mildly interested in Play-fi when I recently heard about it. Don't need it now, but filed it away for future reference/consideration.

 

Thanks for the heads up. Thats pretty much unacceptable design and a giant step backwards.

 

Dlna and chromecast work great for me. See no need to reinvent the wheel. And then make it oblong.

[gsevilla]

I'm using Play-Fi on a McIntosh MB50 streamer. A few more problems to add to the list. I'm not sure if these problems are unique to my streamer or present in all versions of Play-Fi. Deezer on Play-Fi is a "watered down" version. It is missing many features that are in the iOS version. Spotify has "popping/crackling" noise on frequencies above 1000Hz. I first noticed the distortion on Norah Jones songs (when she hits the higher frequencies). Eventually I searched for some test tones, and sure enough, the popping/crackling appeared on every tone above 1000Hz. I tested Spotify through my SONOS Connect and all test tones are clean. There's also no MacOS version of Play-Fi. Again, I'm not sure if my problems with Play-Fi are unique to my particular streamer. Can someone please test Spotify and let me know if you hear the distortion? Thank you.

[amgradmd]

I have a love/hate relationship with Play-Fi. I have a set of wired outdoor speaker powered by the Paradigm PW Amp. The Paradigm amp and speakers sound great and work well streaming my hi-res files across my network. My Sonos speakers cannot do this. Awesome. However, the speakers are located on my back deck adjacent to the back yard. Because the music runs through the device, as detailed above, I cannot go into the back yard with my phone on me while listening to music because my phone will lose Wifi connectivity cutting out the music. This necessitated me leaving my phone on the deck while in the yard, missing calls, texts, etc. I forgot to mention that when I control my music with th Play-Fi app on my Samsung S8 Edge, the music stalls out after only a couple soungs, for some reason. I've gone round and round with Play-Fi/Paradigm tech support on this and they don't have a clue why this happens. Paradigm is awesome, BTW. I don't blame them for Play-Fi's shortcomings. My Nexus 7 tablet, works fine with it though! No song stalling. So if I want to listen to my outdoor setup, I have to go upstairs, which is where the Nexus 7 is usually located (hopefully it's charged) and bring it downstairs and outside to operate Play-Fi. Oh, definitely do not forget that the tablet is outside when you are done or else it might get rained on!! And don't get me started on updating Play-Fi components!! It takes like 10 minutes on average to do this, seemingly every other week, and may or may not work. I've had to re-attempt this up to 10 times to get the update to take. Ugh. Ok, now I feel better.

[Cebolla]

I recently started using the Hi-Fi Cast Android app to stream FLAC files gaplessly from my DLNA server to Chromecast Audio. It works great but like Play-Fi runs all data through the controlling device. Fortunately it has the option to turn off gapless playback, then it streams directly from the server to the Chromecast, taking the phone out of the equation and working like casting is supposed to. My understanding is that DLNA has no innate gapless capability and that using intervening software (in this case on the controlling device) is the only way it can be accomplished.

No, it's the Google Chromecast device that doesn't support gapless. Google Cast streaming has nothing to do with UPnP/DLNA streaming and anyway, as @mansr has pointed out, UPnP/DLNA devices can natively support gapless playback.

 

Chromecast devices do not support UPnP/DLNA and it is only through bridging apps, like the Hi-Fi Cast, that you are able to use Chromecast devices to stream audio files from UPnP/DLNA media servers.

[GrahamJohnMiles]

I think DTS Play-Fi is fine, but you need to have a dedicated device to serve the music. I have an older Nexus tablet that was sitting around doing nothing, so it runs DTS and nothing else. You can also load DTS on your Windows device and use that. Since it has more computing power, dropouts will be minimized. DTS also recommends keeping all your devices on the 5Ghz network, or connect via ethernet.

[mav52]

Get the BIG BOX people together and there you have it, fits into the do everything AVR. . I also read on the site it notes lossless 24/192 playback.

 

https://play-fi.com/technology/

[The Computer Audiophile]

Get the BIG BOX people together and there you have it, fits into the do everything AVR. . I also read on the site it notes lossless 24/192 playback.

 

https://play-fi.com/technology/

 

Sure, it'll play 192, but I was told 96 is the max and everything higher is downsampled.

[mav52]

Sure, it'll play 192, but I was told 96 is the max and everything higher is downsampled.

 

But if you read their tech stuff its also notes " Optional downsampling of Hi-Res content" . So when you get a component, test it and let us know what it really does.

[The Computer Audiophile]

But if you read their tech stuff its also notes " Optional downsampling of Hi-Res content" . So when you get a component, test it and let us know what it really does.

 

For sure. I did with one component but the digital output wasn't spec'd for high res. I'll keep trying.

[Cebolla]

You can also load DTS on your Windows device and use that. Since it has more computing power, dropouts will be minimized. DTS also recommends keeping all your devices on the 5Ghz network, or connect via ethernet.

Does that mean you can run the DTS software on a Windows machine and use the DTS app on a handheld device at the same time, with no audio passing through the handheld device & therefore no resulting battery drain (so all required audio 'handling' done by DTS software on Windows machine)?

[GrahamJohnMiles]

Does that mean you can run the DTS software on a Windows machine and use the DTS app on a handheld device at the same time, with no audio passing through the handheld device & therefore no resulting battery drain (so all required audio 'handling' done by DTS software on Windows machine)?

 

When you load the DTS app, on your Windows machine, you set the Windows sound default to DTS (it will show in your settings once installed.) The Windows app connects to whatever DTS device you have. You can then start up Spotify, Tidal or whatever on Windows and it will play the music to your DTS device. You can then use your handheld DTS capable device (IOS or Android) to control volume, it will show as a Zone. However, if you press connect on your handheld device, it will take over the DTS device and stream from there. The windows app costs $15 by the way.

[amadcitrus]

On 17/03/2017 at 2:37 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Sure, it'll play 192, but I was told 96 is the max and everything higher is downsampled.

 

Some manufacturers seem to badger DTS (and design-in the required hardware) more than others, to get the platform to do what it promises....

For example, I know the Rotel T14 will pass native 24/192 content to its digital out.

You have to click the 'Hi-Res Audio' button in the app before connecting to the Play-Fi device, to put the platform into 'Critical Listening Mode'.

[stevebythebay]

Just wondering if you are using the dCS Network Bridge as an alternative to the microRendu and Berkeley Alpha USB combination.  My assumption is that it would be attached via AES/EBU to the Berkeley Reference DAC.  Are you planning on reviewing the dCS Network Bridge?  I understand this device also operates as a Roon compatible device, as does the microRendu.  

[emailists]

This article is 100% correct.  

 

IMHO DTS is either not serious about developing this software or don't have deep experience or resources to do so.  

 

In the world of color grading software like Davinci Resolve, there is significant improvement often and taking into account user feedback and suggestions.

 

Even the development of Jriver shows a focused capable effort.  

 

I contacted DTS many many months ago about DLNA support and got nowhere.   Definitive was quite responsive but beholden to DTS to make changes.   

 

I lost days of time trying to get Jriver to render to play Fi, since I saw it listed in the network.   And Definitive thought it should work 

 

It it seems their recent focus is to stream 5.1 wirelessly, which is commendable but If your DLNA media browser doesn't even have an alphabet to quickly navigate to different artists, etc, ........

 

I bought into playfi only because I got some great deals on a Definitive tech W9 and. W 7.   They both sound fantastic for their size and cost at discount .  Definitive claims an eq will be rolled out at some point so speaker boundary effects can be evened out.   

 

And since they are corner placed, at least the W7 requires eq to remove the bass hump that happens in the small spaces, on walls and corners where these devices are likely to be placed.   

 

also also I can only seem to stream from Jriver library transcoded to MP3.  Not uncompressed or 24/96 as they seem to indicate.  

 

I mostly use it for serius XM due to its limits.  

 

I

[Jasper]

Thanks for the article, streaming via the device is certainly a big issue. Does anybody know if this, 9 months later, is still the case? If so, will it be fixed/changed in the future? Is it even possible to fix with software updates?

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 hours ago, Jasper said:

Thanks for the article, streaming via the device is certainly a big issue. Does anybody know if this, 9 months later, is still the case? If so, will it be fixed/changed in the future? Is it even possible to fix with software updates?

Hi Jasper - After I wrote this article I receive a call from the product manager at DTS. We talked for quite a while about how PlayFi works. He acknowledged some of the down sides to the software, but he also stressed that this is how they designed it and he laid out several reasons for why it works how it works. 

 

So, to answer your question, I don't believe there will be any changes or "fixes" to DTS PlayFi because it's working how the company believes people want it to work.

 

[Abarth]

Thank you for that article...thanks very much. Absolute showstopper!

And no hope either   

 

It's really hard to follow their thinking line...

 

[9radua1]

I enjoy Play-Fi through my Paradigm PW Link, but I have had trouble getting a straight answer from their techsupport: 

1. Does the unit downsample everything to 48 khz when sending through the digital output? And is this downsampled in 16 or 24 bit? Is it not possible to forward the unaltered stream of 96khz/24bit from my NAS through the digital output into an external DAC? 

2. There is no support for gapless playback, not through the (pseudo)DLNA NAS-server nor in Tidal. Is this a matter of firmware, softrware or hardware? Since Tidal does support gapless playback in other apps, it seems a strange choice not to allow for it in a Play-Fi context.

3. Which A/D converter sits on the analogue input of the Paradigm PW Link, and what sample rate and bit depth does it operate in? 

 

To be honest, I rather like the Play-Fi interface and especially coupled with the Anthem Room Correction (ARC) units from Paradigm and Martin Logan. Feature-wise, it is ALMOST there. Had they included true DLNA, gapless playback buffering and allowed for more user control of parameters like A/D/A sample rates, this would have been a complete product! 

 

Regards,

 

Simon 

[raduac]

On 12/27/2017 at 4:41 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Jasper - After I wrote this article I receive a call from the product manager at DTS. We talked for quite a while about how PlayFi works. He acknowledged some of the down sides to the software, but he also stressed that this is how they designed it and he laid out several reasons for why it works how it works. 

 

So, to answer your question, I don't believe there will be any changes or "fixes" to DTS PlayFi because it's working how the company believes people want it to work.

 

It's right to assume that one of those reasons is the ability to group speakers for Stereo Pairing and Wireless Surround Sound?

[Cebolla]

Possibly, but other network audio streaming systems manage similar completely in the firmware/hardware of the streaming/player devices and don't require any 'middle man' involvement by the controlling device.