Reference 2 Channel Speaker Recommendations

[bunno77]

And I personally, recently heard the bookshelves. Was an average amp and cd player so it was incredibly underwhelming

 

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[ctsooner]

And I personally, recently heard the bookshelves. Was an average amp and cd player so it was incredibly underwhelming

 

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I've heard the whole line now. We all like different things, but for me I don't get this line anymore than I have their other signature lines. They are not the most refined speakers in their respective price ranges. I have tried to like them a ton as I was in the market for new speakers when the 9H's came out many months ago. I spoke with their VP of sales nationally when he brought them down and then even a couple of weeks ago to really hear them broken in. When I listen to a few other speakers, I feel the Paradgim's are too forward for my tastes and I also feel they are bass heavy. They don't have the continuity that I'm used to hearing. I like a point source type of speaker that sounds completely integrated from top to bottom. Do I like them more than some other speakers in their price range? Yes I do, but I feel they are very much over priced for what you get.

 

Again, that's for my ears and it's nothing against them at all.

[Johnseye]

I've heard the whole line now. We all like different things, but for me I don't get this line anymore than I have their other signature lines. They are not the most refined speakers in their respective price ranges. I have tried to like them a ton as I was in the market for new speakers when the 9H's came out many months ago. I spoke with their VP of sales nationally when he brought them down and then even a couple of weeks ago to really hear them broken in. When I listen to a few other speakers, I feel the Paradgim's are too forward for my tastes and I also feel they are bass heavy. They don't have the continuity that I'm used to hearing. I like a point source type of speaker that sounds completely integrated from top to bottom. Do I like them more than some other speakers in their price range? Yes I do, but I feel they are very much over priced for what you get.

 

Again, that's for my ears and it's nothing against them at all.

I don't get the price difference between 3F and 5F considering the difference is a woofer. I also don't get why the center is the cost of 1.5 3F's. I think the 3F is a value for the money. Not sure above that except for the 9H which I can't really speak to because the cost is out of my range.

 

I'm guessing you like the Vandersteens for the same reasons you don't prefer the Personas. That forward in the band sound vs the relaxed in the crowd sound.

[Ralf11]

I tried to find a download of the S'phile jitter track but couldn't with a quick search. I bet there is something posted somewhere tho.

[ctsooner]

I don't get the price difference between 3F and 5F considering the difference is a woofer. I also don't get why the center is the cost of 1.5 3F's. I think the 3F is a value for the money. Not sure above that except for the 9H which I can't really speak to because the cost is out of my range.

 

I'm guessing you like the Vandersteens for the same reasons you don't prefer the Personas. That forward in the band sound vs the relaxed in the crowd sound.

 

Not a relaxed presentation, unless it's recorded that way. Vandersteen's are some of the most dynamic speakers you can buy. Heck, it's the first one I've had in my room that I can listen to softly on a Sunday morning, so as not to wake the wife, and still enjoy the heck out of. Try that with other speakers like Focal and others and good luck.

 

It's the pistonic movement of the carbon fiber drivers in the Treo on up. Ultra low distortion compared to others with diamond, beryllium and other coatings. There is science behind this. Here is a link that you need to view to understand what I'm saying,. I heard what he talks about when listening to his speakers compared to others. Is it the only way to build a speaker properly? No, but right now few if any are doing what he is as various price ranges. Listening it all about distortion and eliminating it. Be it jitter, or cone distortion etc... Folks seem to like the sound of even order harmonic distortion, but it's distortion and just not what good sound is about. I'm not a stat guy, but to me you can hear these differences. Check this out:

 

[Dr Tone]

Just got done reading thru this thread and just wanted to bring two concerns I have with what looks to be the top contender speaker of choice from what I have gathered. The Paradigm Persona's.

 

I've read one Red Flag statement so far in this thread about the sound characteristic of this speaker and that is it sounding "Forward/Exciting". The other Red Flag in my opinion which plays to the mentioned sound of the speaker is the fact that the design of the Midrange is such that the manufacturer felt it necessary to essentially completely cover the MidRange driver with a permanent grille that appears to choke the driver and force it thru a series of hole the size of a straw.

 

A speaker that sounds exciting at first listen is a bad sign in my experience because its very possible that this excitement will be a burden later and as listening sessions get longer. I think you should seriously consider why the manufacturer decided to almost fully cover their Midrange the way they have on this model.

 

The more laid back speaker at first listen is a better starting point IMO. As it breaks in, it will most likely come forward a bit more. A speaker that starts forward usually comes forward even more, again in my experience.

 

Happy Hunting

This is good advice and something I experienced first hand. I started out in love with detail and wanted more and more of it. Eventually I couldn't listen for more than an hour and my ears started ringing.

 

My last speaker purchase had 2 goals.

 

1) They needed to sound good at lower volumes.

2) They had to make the music enjoyable again and that in my opinion is a relaxed presentation.

 

I no longer have listener fatigue and I listen to the music again not my speakers.

[ctsooner]

And in a nutshell this is why I fell in Love with Vandersteen speakers. Highly detailed due to the pistonic motion of their driver and never fatiguing

 

 

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[Dr Tone]

Not a relaxed presentation, unless it's recorded that way. Vandersteen's are some of the most dynamic speakers you can buy. Heck, it's the first one I've had in my room that I can listen to softly on a Sunday morning, so as not to wake the wife, and still enjoy the heck out of. Try that with other speakers like Focal and others and good luck.

 

Low volume listening enjoyment is related to a full sounding speaker with the right balance of lows, lower mids and highs in comparison to the upper mids. Our ears focus on upper mids at lower volumes by nature and most speakers sound thin until the volume can be brought up. IMO, a more laid back presentation will also help at lower volumes not a forward or extremely dynamic one.

[ctsooner]

Low volume listening enjoyment is related to a full sounding speaker with the right balance of lows, lower mids and highs in comparison to the upper mids. Our ears focus on upper mids at lower volumes by nature and most speakers sound thin until the volume can be brought up. IMO, a more laid back presentation will also help at lower volumes not a forward or extremely dynamic one.

 

That's cool. I just don't feel Vandersteen's are forward, or laid back etc.... They are faithful to the recording and when you read the boards, you rarely see folks posting about faithful to recording. Heck, nothing can make a poor recording sound good unless you have speakers that are 'forgiving', which to me means lacking detail and or rolled off in the highs. Not bad for 80's rock, but not what I want when listening.

[Johnseye]

Not a relaxed presentation, unless it's recorded that way. Vandersteen's are some of the most dynamic speakers you can buy. Heck, it's the first one I've had in my room that I can listen to softly on a Sunday morning, so as not to wake the wife, and still enjoy the heck out of. Try that with other speakers like Focal and others and good luck.

 

It's the pistonic movement of the carbon fiber drivers in the Treo on up. Ultra low distortion compared to others with diamond, beryllium and other coatings. There is science behind this. Here is a link that you need to view to understand what I'm saying,. I heard what he talks about when listening to his speakers compared to others. Is it the only way to build a speaker properly? No, but right now few if any are doing what he is as various price ranges. Listening it all about distortion and eliminating it. Be it jitter, or cone distortion etc... Folks seem to like the sound of even order harmonic distortion, but it's distortion and just not what good sound is about. I'm not a stat guy, but to me you can hear these differences. Check this out:

 

 

This is good advice and something I experienced first hand. I started out in love with detail and wanted more and more of it. Eventually I couldn't listen for more than an hour and my ears started ringing.

 

My last speaker purchase had 2 goals.

 

1) They needed to sound good at lower volumes.

2) They had to make the music enjoyable again and that in my opinion is a relaxed presentation.

 

I no longer have listener fatigue and I listen to the music again not my speakers.

 

I guess time will tell and I'll continue to share my experiences in this thread. I really like the defined, clear sound. I've been listening through B&Ws for the past 10 years and to me the Vandersteens sounded close to that. I wanted something different. What differentiated the Personas was that I heard a better separation of the instruments. They didn't sound blended and the highs didn't sound overwhelmed by the mids. To my ears they sound very well balanced. If anything I'd like a little more bass and I heard the exact same thing with the 3F and 5F regardless of the additional woofer. I'm going to experiment with 2.1 to see if that's a good solution. The clarity and definition of the Personas allow me to listen at lower volumes without the sound appearing muddled.

 

To me the music is more enjoyable than since when I rediscovered vinyl. I remember back in '88 I sold all my vinyl and used the cash to buy CDs. Biggest mistake ever. I still think there is a significant difference in vinyl from before say 1982 or vinyl that is from the original analog source. I tend to listen to more digital music if it was after '82 and likely mastered that way. I'm significantly digressing. What I was getting at is that digital music especially sounds excellent to me right now. Better than through my B&Ws. I'm rediscovering my music collection, almost like listening to the songs for the first time, discovering new sounds. No fatigue.

 

I've been watching a lot of movies lately as I audition the Persona center, Paradigm Reference center and Sopra center. The Paradigm reference was so far off I could always tell where the voices were coming from. The Persona was right on, as you'd expect. Movies sound incredibly exciting and dynamic. It's also a $7k center so I'm choking on that. The Sopra center matches the timber of the Personas very well. I don't notice the voices coming from the speaker at all. However it is very laid back, almost to a fault. It's actually how I remember the Sopra towers which makes sense. I'm auditioning a JL sub and going to add it to the mix tonight and see how that all balances out.

[Pat Case]

That's cool. I just don't feel Vandersteen's are forward, or laid back etc.... They are faithful to the recording and when you read the boards, you rarely see folks posting about faithful to recording. Heck, nothing can make a poor recording sound good unless you have speakers that are 'forgiving', which to me means lacking detail and or rolled off in the highs. Not bad for 80's rock, but not what I want when listening.

 

 

All of this very descriptive Vandersteen talk almost makes make me want to trade in my Revel Ultima Salon 2s. But I ain't gonna do it. I've had extended listening sessions with the Vandersteen Model5 Carbon and my ears and head still prefer the Revels - not by much but by enough.

[ctsooner]

All of this very descriptive Vandersteen talk almost makes make me want to trade in my Revel Ultima Salon 2s. But I ain't gonna do it. I've had extended listening sessions with the Vandersteen Model5 Carbon and my ears and head still prefer the Revels - not by much but by enough.

'

 

And that's why there are different companies for us to buy from. I never loved the Vandersteen line as I've said in other threads. It's recently that they really started to stand out. The newer ones give me all the micro and macro detail that I want in an warmer and unfatiguing way. I love the use of carbon and feel that is what separates them greatly from the other tweeters and some of the mids I've heard from others. Again, just me. I have a close friend who had one of the speakers mentioned in this thread and he went to listen to the newest 5CT's and fell in love. He auditioned the 5's in the past, but went to listen to them as a top dealer who knows how to set up the speakers properly and all the speakers in this guys store sounded better than he'd ever heard them. He got them over the what he was listening to. I have a similar story. The subtle changes they make just seem to make sense to my ears.

[botrytis]

I owned a pair of 2CE's and did not like the sound. To me they were wooly, thumpy boxes. But, everyone likes something different, and hence, so many speaker brands.

[ctsooner]

I owned a pair of 2CE's and did not like the sound. To me they were wooly, thumpy boxes. But, everyone likes something different, and hence, so many speaker brands.

 

Never heard them called that. Honestly, they probably weren't set up properly. What electronics were you using? Which stands? Were they spiked? Just curious.

[Ralf11]

I really liked my @ce's (or were they 2c's?), but Maggies eventually won out. Revel is a spin-off of a few top guys with significant engineering resources and design 'smarts'. Vandersteens are a series of improvements begun by one top guy who has carried his design expertise in a single direction for decades.

 

to get back to the thread, Johnseye - I don't recall you explaining your listening methodology, tho I may have missed it. Care to do so?

[cjf]

I guess time will tell and I'll continue to share my experiences in this thread. I really like the defined, clear sound. I've been listening through B&Ws for the past 10 years and to me the Vandersteens sounded close to that. I wanted something different. What differentiated the Personas was that I heard a better separation of the instruments. They didn't sound blended and the highs didn't sound overwhelmed by the mids. To my ears they sound very well balanced. If anything I'd like a little more bass and I heard the exact same thing with the 3F and 5F regardless of the additional woofer. I'm going to experiment with 2.1 to see if that's a good solution. The clarity and definition of the Personas allow me to listen at lower volumes without the sound appearing muddled.

 

To me the music is more enjoyable than since when I rediscovered vinyl. I remember back in '88 I sold all my vinyl and used the cash to buy CDs. Biggest mistake ever. I still think there is a significant difference in vinyl from before say 1982 or vinyl that is from the original analog source. I tend to listen to more digital music if it was after '82 and likely mastered that way. I'm significantly digressing. What I was getting at is that digital music especially sounds excellent to me right now. Better than through my B&Ws. I'm rediscovering my music collection, almost like listening to the songs for the first time, discovering new sounds. No fatigue.

 

I've been watching a lot of movies lately as I audition the Persona center, Paradigm Reference center and Sopra center. The Paradigm reference was so far off I could always tell where the voices were coming from. The Persona was right on, as you'd expect. Movies sound incredibly exciting and dynamic. It's also a $7k center so I'm choking on that. The Sopra center matches the timber of the Personas very well. I don't notice the voices coming from the speaker at all. However it is very laid back, almost to a fault. It's actually how I remember the Sopra towers which makes sense. I'm auditioning a JL sub and going to add it to the mix tonight and see how that all balances out.

 

At the end of the day all that matters is that you like what your hearing, no matter what others say. When I posted I hadnt realized you already purchased the speaker and thus my advice was too late anyway.

 

Not to state the obvious but if Im not mistaken you did change the Amp and the Speakers at the same time or at least within a very short time of each other. I do wonder what you would have thought of your previous B&W's using your new Amp after it was fully broken in. I guess my point is that Im sure your hearing a whole different beast now compared to what your used to hearing before. With that said, it may be worth considering whether its still a bit too soon to dive into a center channel given the cost.

 

Ive never understood the need for a Center Channel myself assuming the main towers are positioned properly but thats just my opinion.

[Johnseye]

At the end of the day all that matters is that you like what your hearing, no matter what others say. When I posted I hadnt realized you already purchased the speaker and thus my advice was too late anyway.

 

Not to state the obvious but if Im not mistaken you did change the Amp and the Speakers at the same time or at least within a very short time of each other. I do wonder what you would have thought of your previous B&W's using your new Amp after it was fully broken in. I guess my point is that Im sure your hearing a whole different beast now compared to what your used to hearing before. With that said, it may be worth considering whether its still a bit too soon to dive into a center channel given the cost.

 

Ive never understood the need for a Center Channel myself assuming the main towers are positioned properly but thats just my opinion.

 

Regardless of advice and opinions the decision was based upon what I like. I took everyone's suggestions of what speakers to audition, but I wouldn't buy something because someone else liked it where I liked another better. I took suggestions to find a better amp, and in the end did my research, auditioned a few and chose what I liked. I did use the new amp on my B&Ws and it did make a difference. I commented to what I heard in this thread. I can always bring the amp and dac into my other room, or move the speakers back to listen with the B&Ws. I'm not getting rid of them.

 

Regardless of time spent I can get pretty close to what something is going to sound like, even if it isn't broken in. With some speakers I auditioned I could spend a few minutes listening and know that wasn't what I was looking for. Others required much more time to discern the subtle nuances.

 

I am hearing music in a different way now. I consider it much better. The only things to remain consistent are the DAC and turntable with its preamp. Everything else has changed. It will be interesting to hear the B&Ws with that equipment in a few months or a year.

 

I think the center helps define the vocals in the center and the sweet spot isn't critical. With correct imaging that may not be an issue for the person sitting in the middle, but with seats to the left and right imaging changes slightly. It also allows for the movie's sound producers to place the sound exactly where they want it. To the side, in back, center front or even on top now. Pretty cool stuff, very immersive.

[Johnseye]

I really liked my @ce's (or were they 2c's?), but Maggies eventually won out. Revel is a spin-off of a few top guys with significant engineering resources and design 'smarts'. Vandersteens are a series of improvements begun by one top guy who has carried his design expertise in a single direction for decades.

 

to get back to the thread, Johnseye - I don't recall you explaining your listening methodology, tho I may have missed it. Care to do so?

I'll see if I can explain it without missing a step. If I forget something I do I'll add it later.

 

I start by using the same tracks. I've used the same tracks when I selected a DAC as well. I know them inside and out which helps to identify differences. Even so, I've been considering and will probably start writing down the timings of the subtleties in the tracks that help me listen for particular things. I just don't like having the lights on when I do this.

 

I'm a firm believer that we take in information from our senses and any distraction from one sense limits it's ability. It's a simple concept but often ignored. The blind person can hear differently than the sighted and the deaf person can see differently than the non-deaf. They've tuned those senses they rely on more and have less interference from what they don't have.

 

So, lights out and eyes closed. Hopefully no distractions from around the house. My theater is in the basement so it's pretty quiet and blacked out. I can't do this in the store but I always close my eyes and focus on the music. Even thinking can get in the way of listening.

 

I only make one change at a time when comparing two things. For example, speakers next to each other and I'll swap the same cables back and forth, turning off the amp first of course. I'll listen to tracks in a couple different ways. In one way I'll listen to 30 seconds to a minute of a track, then another and another up to about 4 tracks in order, swap the speakers and listen to the same sections of the tracks in reverse order listening for differences. In the store I would write my thoughts down in Evernote. Another way I'll listen is to put on a few tracks of an album (digital) or listen to an entire album to get more of a feeling of the sound, letting it soak in. Then listen to the same album on the other speakers. I can only do this at home because of the length of time. I'll also just put Roon on a playlist and let it cycle through stuff to see if I hear something in a song I hadn't heard before. That's helpful in finding new reference material. Finally, I'll listen to the same track over and over switching the equipment being evaluated. With vinyl I'll either listen to a side or the entire album then switch speakers.

 

I listen to as many genres as I can and as much different material so I know what a poor recording sounds like as well as a good one. I think it was you who pointed out my avatar and enjoyment of live music/recordings. Knowing what those sound like is just as important as the ear candy that wins the Grammy for best engineered recording. I'll listen to songs with nothing but a vocal or nothing but a trumpet so I can discern how dark, or how much noise is present on the track. Those well engineered albums are helpful in discerning imaging, dimensionality, tonal balance, etc.

 

The method is similar if not the same for other equipment. Side by side with the same material. I've been spending a lot of time in the basement Good thing the weather's crappy outside. I knew I wanted to get this done before I started spending more time outside. It also helps to walk away for a while, clear your head and come back. There are many things that can influence what you're hearing. I don't listen in an anechoic chamber and I'm not measuring sounds with any instruments. This is all subjective listening but I attempt to make my comparisons as "apples to apples" as possible. Otherwise what's the point. I was a psych major in undergrad so know enough about setting up a test environment to be dangerous. Any suggestions of improvement are welcomed. If I missed something I'll comment on that later.

 

By the way, I had someone send me the jitter track so I'll give that a listen.

[cjf]

Regardless of advice and opinions the decision was based upon what I like. I took everyone's suggestions of what speakers to audition, but I wouldn't buy something because someone else liked it where I liked another better. I took suggestions to find a better amp, and in the end did my research, auditioned a few and chose what I liked. I did use the new amp on my B&Ws and it did make a difference. I commented to what I heard in this thread. I can always bring the amp and dac into my other room, or move the speakers back to listen with the B&Ws. I'm not getting rid of them.

 

Regardless of time spent I can get pretty close to what something is going to sound like, even if it isn't broken in. With some speakers I auditioned I could spend a few minutes listening and know that wasn't what I was looking for. Others required much more time to discern the subtle nuances.

 

I am hearing music in a different way now. I consider it much better. The only things to remain consistent are the DAC and turntable with its preamp. Everything else has changed. It will be interesting to hear the B&Ws with that equipment in a few months or a year.

 

I think the center helps define the vocals in the center and the sweet spot isn't critical. With correct imaging that may not be an issue for the person sitting in the middle, but with seats to the left and right imaging changes slightly. It also allows for the movie's sound producers to place the sound exactly where they want it. To the side, in back, center front or even on top now. Pretty cool stuff, very immersive.

 

I dont believe I caught the exact model B&W you were using. I thought you said 803 but dont recall which 803 (ie...S,D,D1,D2,D3...etc)? I lived very happily with the 803D2's for about 4yrs and was always impressed to find out how much better they could get the more I up'ed the ante on amps and speaker cable I hooked up to them.

 

It was only after I significantly surpassed the price of admission of the 803D2's did I find out what the next level really sounded like. I still drool at the thought of owning the 800D2's, especially after hearing all of the D3 offerings

 

Anyway, Im sure that Benchmark amp is impressive sounding and its super cool that you can bridge it down to Mono if the need arises. I've always been a fan of the Benchmark stuff and still own and use the old school DAC1 USB as my primary DAC on my workstation/office HiFi Rig.

[AudioDoctor]

I'll read the rest of the thread in a bit, but considering we have jumped to amps from speakers, may I suggest you use half your budget and get a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP.

[Johnseye]

I dont believe I caught the exact model B&W you were using. I thought you said 803 but dont recall which 803 (ie...S,D,D1,D2,D3...etc)? I lived very happily with the 803D2's for about 4yrs and was always impressed to find out how much better they could get the more I up'ed the ante on amps and speaker cable I hooked up to them.

 

It was only after I significantly surpassed the price of admission of the 803D2's did I find out what the next level really sounded like. I still drool at the thought of owning the 800D2's, especially after hearing all of the D3 offerings

 

Anyway, Im sure that Benchmark amp is impressive sounding and its super cool that you can bridge it down to Mono if the need arises. I've always been a fan of the Benchmark stuff and still own and use the old school DAC1 USB as my primary DAC on my workstation/office HiFi Rig.

They are 803S, are about 9 or 10 years old and were about $6k for the pair iirc. Not the same as the diamonds, but have the same B&W signature and still sound great. I did audition the diamonds this time around, but the price jump is significant and I wanted something different.

[Johnseye]

I'll read the rest of the thread in a bit, but considering we have jumped to amps from speakers, may I suggest you use half your budget and get a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP.

At some point in the next year I will be in the market for a preamp, not integrated. I'll run through the same exercise and put the Primaluna on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

[AudioDoctor]

At some point in the next year I will be in the market for a preamp, not integrated. I'll run through the same exercise and put the Primaluna on my list. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

They make a fine pre, as well as an amp that can be run Stereo or Mono. I don't think you would be disappointed.

 

Disclosure, I have a Dialogue Premium HP.

[Ralf11]

it sounds like you vary the length of time on each speaker from a passage, up to a track and including extended listening time

 

are all these known by brand, or have you made any attempt to use blinded tests?

 

also, a technique some have used is described in another thread, and uses a different speaker (or amp) in each channel (pre-amp set to mono) - I think we should call this the "The Jud"

 

I've done it by walking back and forth from one speaker to another (but I use panels, which make stand up listening easy)

 

yes it was me that noted your avatar, as a Fan of the Band it stood out for me

[ctsooner]

Also put Belles on that list of preamps. I have heard it a few times now and think it's one of the best buys going for amps right now. Never owned one, just think for the price they are a killer company and even look more expensive than they are. Just outstanding.