Reference 2 Channel Speaker Recommendations

[Ralf11]

and... have you seen Absolute Sound April 2017 issue??

[Johnseye]

you are either on the bus or off the bus, and I am going to have to jump ship on cables...

 

I don't understand why silver being the most conductive would change the sound.

 

Conductivity Of Metals Sorted By Resistivity | Eddy Current Technology

 

 

also it is important to distinguish speaker cables from interconnect cables...

 

I don't blame you. I wasn't expecting what I heard from the WE cables. I thought the difference would be barely noticeable. Earlier we were discussing the various impacts to sound with speakers having the biggest impact. I think the WE cables had a bigger impact than using the microRendu, LPS-1 and fiber. I'll have to go back and plug my DAC back in direct to the PC instead of the mRendu to double check, but I think that speaker cable had a bigger impact, except in the opposite direction I was heading.

 

I don't know the details of how cable metal impacts the sound...yet. I've been using the same copper cable for years and my runs were too long to do any real experimenting without mortgaging my house. Now my runs are 8ft since I moved my 2 channel equipment. I'm just basing this off of what I heard with the WE cables, and my conversation with Paul at Clear Day Cable. I won't know for sure until I hear it for myself.

 

I was just talking about speaker cables though, but I expect interconnects to follow the same science.

 

and... have you seen Absolute Sound April 2017 issue??

 

I didn't realize April was out. I just downloaded it and will give it a read tonight. Looks like the Persona made the front page. Thanks!

[Johnseye]

Ironically, while just doing a search for conductivity and speaker cable I came across this. They like my speaker cable. Who knows, maybe I'll end up liking it more than anything else.

 

The Best Speaker Cable | The Wirecutter

 

Here's some other good science on the subject. I think the best take away is the level of subtlety of speaker cables and that the microRendu, LPS-1 and fiber could be even more subtle. Had I known this before and spent the $1k for the mRendu rig on better speaker cable would I be better off?

 

https://passlabs.com/press/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil

 

Researchers have chiefly concentrated on the cable's inductance and resistance, for they impede the flow of electrons between the amplifier and the loudspeaker. Resistance causes loss at all frequencies while inductance causes loss proportional to the frequency. Capacitance has not usually been considered significant because its values do not impinge upon the audio band. However, we will see later that it may sometimes important.

[Ralf11]

from my quick look it seems they liked the Monoprice 2747 12 gauge the best, or the best for the price

 

gmgraves had an xlnt post on speaker cables a few weeks ago - I don't know your speakers impedance vs. frq. graph so I can't really comment, but different inductanc cables may well sound different

 

my preference would be to stick a high quality monoblock right next to the speaker (assuming the speaker manf. did not have an engineering team design an amplifier for each driver)

 

mea culpa, I use kimber kables on my 20 year old 1.5QR Magnepans - but they were free (I have a pair of used 3.7i Maggies being shipped to me ($4,000) so I'll be thinking about an amp better than my Sunfire, and a DAC better than my DacMagic before messing with speaker cables).

 

and BTW, thanks for all your writings about your careful listening evaluations in this thread

[fbee]

I would suggest to take brief look at Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design

 

Be it turnkey or DIY.

 

Some ex-MartinLogan and ex-Maggie owners report there.

With Siegfried Linkwitz' creations, they found their "last speakers" .

A believeable, natural 3D soundstage, that keeps stable when leaving the sweet-spot!

 

Some folks around the world offer private auditions in the OPLUG forum.

(eg. on March 25th there is one in Stuttgart/Germany)

 

Cheers, Frank

[TubeLover]

mea culpa, I use kimber kables on my 20 year old 1.5QR Magnepans - but they were free (I have a pair of used 3.7i Maggies being shipped to me ($4,000) so I'll be thinking about an amp better than my Sunfire, and a DAC better than my DacMagic before messing with speaker cables). and BTW, thanks for all your writings about your careful listening evaluations in this thread

 

Congrats on the 3.7i's. Absolutely wonderful speakers. The ONLY reason I did not buy them (and completely rework my system to accommodate them optimally) when I purchased new speakers recently, was that my room was a bit too small, per expert advice I received.

 

Fortunately, while I was terribly disappointed in not owning the 3.7i's, my eventual alternate speaker strategy, and a wondrous new amp associated with it have me beyond happy.

 

JC

[ctsooner]

Guys, you are getting too wrapped up in cables. Seriously, there are sound differences between various metals, but in the end, it's about implementation just like anything else. Silver can sound best, but only when it's implemented properly. It must be drawn correctly and most big companies can't do that when they draw them in mass pulls. AQ and Cardas have figured out how to do this, where others haven't. This is the biggest reason I'm not a Nordost fan. I have a hand pulled all silver cable with the proper shielding as a USB cable made by Steve Nugent (who also made my Mac Mini with Paul Hynes LPS) and it's as good sounding as any USB cable I've has in my system other than the TotalDac and AQ Diamond USB's. If silver is drawn and then implemented properly, it will be the most neutral you can buy. That said, it's cost prohibited by most, so makes go to silver coated etc... Again, implementation. Copper is not warmer than silver. Silver is not hotter than copper. Again, implementation.

 

For all of you who get these mom and pop cables, you really should go audition the similarly priced AQ or Cardas cables. Again, if you feel you need to tune your system with cables or change cables because they are not good with SS or tubes, then you have poor cables. It's as simple as that. I can't tell you how many dealers I go into who are using Transparent or MIT and then switch to Nordost and tell me what I'm hearing is better. Or the opposite. I listen with my own ears and I don't listen to what they tell me to hear. How many times have you auditioned and they are telling you what you are hearing? How many times do they control the volume and they change it DURING the song and try to show how dynamic a speaker is etc...? Yes, even very high end shops continually do this to me when I"m in, so I assume they do this to you too.

 

Go to a store if you can and audition a couple of their cables and see which ones you like best. Most stores will let you take cable home even if they need a hold on a cc. The other thing no one is bringing up IRT cables are the lengths. I heard folks complain constantly about their speaker cables. The first question I ask is how long are they? If it's anything OVER 8', then I immediately ask why. There is not cable, no matter how good that can sound it's best when it's over 8' long. That's the physics part that I don't understand (many of you do I'm sure). I know of no one in the industry that will say differently. Using longer interconnects if you must is the better option. That said, going balanced really cleans things up greatly as it will lower the noise floor and allow all that micro and macro details that a top speaker will give you. That's the emotion of the music. It's the biggest reason why many of us do or are about to implement that copper to fiber back to copper for our internet connection. You say you don't hear the difference like you do with changing your speaker cables, but if your system is detailed enough, you will hear a tremendous difference compared to some other changes you make. That's only if your system will show you what a lower noise floor means.

 

To me, the biggest differences in cables that I hear in a lower end high fi system is going from the pretty inexpensive cables that some are taking about in this thread to a small step up from one of the larger companies. I've known many who get involved in 'designing' cables and they do it because it's the easiest area of audio to break into and some of it really is snake oil. None of these small manufacturers are making their own wire. At their size, they have to buy it from someone else and all they do is put their own jacket on it and terminate it.

 

I've had the Blue Jean cables of the world in both my bedroom system as well as my main system and none of these cables to MY EARS nor the ears of friends I've had over have heard them sound better than some of the basic cables from main manufacturers who can put a lot of money into R&D and keep price points lower for similarly priced cables.

 

I know i'm opinionated and this is a long post, but I've been doing this since I had Polk cables for my Ten's back in the late 70's and then I went through Bruce Brission designed Monster cables and then nearly everything since then, lol.

 

As I've said, go listen to your components with good cables to see the most they can do and match your system that way first. Then figure out what you can spend on decent cables. That still leaves you room for growth.

 

Sorry for the diatribe, lol.

[Johnseye]

from my quick look it seems they liked the Monoprice 2747 12 gauge the best, or the best for the price

Right, this is what I've been using for years. When I built my room I needed a good affordable cable that I could run through the ceiling and down walls for 7.1 surround. I got lucky as it is decent cable, especially for the money.

 

my preference would be to stick a high quality monoblock right next to the speaker (assuming the speaker manf. did not have an engineering team design an amplifier for each driver)

 

mea culpa, I use kimber kables on my 20 year old 1.5QR Magnepans - but they were free (I have a pair of used 3.7i Maggies being shipped to me ($4,000) so I'll be thinking about an amp better than my Sunfire, and a DAC better than my DacMagic before messing with speaker cables).

 

and BTW, thanks for all your writings about your careful listening evaluations in this thread

 

If I decide to get another Benchmark and run them as monos I'll put them next to the speaker to reduce the cable length. For the moment I'll have 8ft runs to either side.

 

I really liked the Magnepans but don't have the space in my theater that they need. The 1.7i may have been ok, but I don't think I would have gotten the best out of them. If I could have fit the 3.7i then I might have gone with them. The soundstage is amazing. Let us know when you get them installed.

 

I'm having a blast checking out new gear and discussing it. I'm a kid in a candy store who's getting to taste it all right now.

[Johnseye]

It's the biggest reason why many of us do or are about to implement that copper to fiber back to copper for our internet connection. You say you don't hear the difference like you do with changing your speaker cables, but if your system is detailed enough, you will hear a tremendous difference compared to some other changes you make. That's only if your system will show you what a lower noise floor means.

 

What I think I hear with the microRendu and fiber is a darker, or more silent background. That would be the lowering of the noise floor. It's there, but it's subtle. It's not like changing the speakers or amp and wow, that's different. The WE speaker cable was a more pronounced change, and maybe it's because my system without that cable is very detailed I noticed the difference. The biggest difference between the WE and my 12 gauge is that it's coated in tin. Maybe there are other differences I'm not aware of. Maybe resistance has something to do with it. I don't know, but it would make sense. I'm just trying to make sense of what I'm hearing.

 

I've got 30 days to trial the Clear Day silver cables. I'll audition some others as well. Now that I've selected the speakers and amp it's important that I don't diminish the reasons why I bought them, but improve those characteristics if possible.

[ctsooner]

What I think I hear with the microRendu and fiber is a darker, or more silent background. That would be the lowering of the noise floor. It's there, but it's subtle. It's not like changing the speakers or amp and wow, that's different. The WE speaker cable was a more pronounced change, and maybe it's because my system without that cable is very detailed I noticed the difference. The biggest difference between the WE and my 12 gauge is that it's coated in tin. Maybe there are other differences I'm not aware of. Maybe resistance has something to do with it. I don't know, but it would make sense. I'm just trying to make sense of what I'm hearing.

 

I've got 30 days to trial the Clear Day silver cables. I'll audition some others as well. Now that I've selected the speakers and amp it's important that I don't diminish the reasons why I bought them, but improve those characteristics if possible.

Digital is a tricky slope. Subtle differences are what make higher end audio what it is. Yes, components upgrades are the biggest differences and once you get the most you can afford, THEN you do these other things to dial it all in and get more detail etc... Too many folks IMHO go crazy over cables and power cords etc..., but they would be better off getting better components when it's all said and done. I can promise you that system is outstanding (or was before my upgrade to the Quatros) that will be here next week for break in. I have exactly one after market power cord that was given to me by a manufacturer to listen to. I only use it on my server and it makes a positive difference, but to me, nothing like some folks talk about when they switch cords. I have heard the soon to be released AQ power cords that Garth came up with. I only heard the prototypes, but man are they the best I've ever heard and it's not close. Some products are worth at least a half component upgrade. Then you do a cost benefit analysis (sort of) and figure out if that's where the next dollars are best spent.

 

Do yourself a favor and get some similarly priced AQ cable into your system to listen along with these others that you are bringing in. It will be interesting to get your thoughts. Like anything we all hear differently and our systems all sound different within each listening room. Subjective, but nice to hear about none the less. That's why it's all good and there is no right or wrong. At least you are listening to the changes and sharing. I hate it when so many on boards say something sounds a certain way, but they've never heard the product or they did at a show where you can't listen properly as you are in a room with others and hardly ever in the sweet seat etc.... Just laugh at folks or reviewers who say how good something sounded from the hallway or audiophiles who make up their minds on products based on listening at a show. That's just MY opinion and I"m not saying that others should agree, so no need for the pissing contests that come after comments like that, lol.

 

I've heard the microRendu set up at a store in Tampa and they did a great job with it. They also had the fiber conversion set up and I liked it a lot, but it was also on a 100k plus system where small differences really show up. I spoke with Micheal Lavorgna about it and as we all know he loves it. I trust what he says on digital more than any other reviewer I've read or follow. I like his set up. We definitely listen a bit differently, but we do share a lot in common in our systems etc..and I know we like a lot of the same gear. He's engaging and a great guy to chat all audio or music with if you ever have the chance.

[Ralf11]

I'll start another thread on the 3.7i when I get them to avoid too much digression here, but Wendell at magnepan did tell me that the 3.7i speakers are acoustically smaller (tho obviously physically larger) than the 1.7i.

 

I am interested in the Benchmark amp as it appears the new technology they licensed solves the long-time problem of cross-over distortion.

[Johnseye]

I'll start another thread on the 3.7i when I get them to avoid too much digression here, but Wendell at magnepan did tell me that the 3.7i speakers are acoustically smaller (tho obviously physically larger) than the 1.7i.

 

I am interested in the Benchmark amp as it appears the new technology they licensed solves the long-time problem of cross-over distortion.

The Benchmark is incredibly quiet and clean, allowing me to hear detail I couldn't before. You'll have no regrets. They offer a 30 trial period.

 

I ran another test tonight with and without the fiber ethernet. There is definitely a difference. It's an improvement. It is subtle and I can only describe it like removing a layer of white noise from the music. Almost like what Dolby does in its casette noise reduction. This allowed for more dynamics and reverberation to be heard and felt.

[Ralf11]

have you listened to the jitter tracks on the Stereophile test discs?

[Johnseye]

have you listened to the jitter tracks on the Stereophile test discs?

No I haven't. How can I get the discs?

[Ralf11]

Dunno - maybe they still sell them (?)

[ctsooner]

Those subtle differences are huge in audio. This is what separates good from bad and good from excellent. It's the fine tuning I always talk about. The thing is that doing that conversion is worth a full component upgrade if you would. It's cost effective as you don't even have to go full out commercial products in doing it to get benefit. Folks get so wrapped up in buying these 500 plus boxes to make their usb connection better etc..., when they'd be better off making the connection noise floor as low as it can go and then get a better DAC for the cost of that box upgrade first. I had a cable that severed the 5V connection on the USB and it sounded as good as the Totaldac cable (nearly). That's part of what those boxes do I believe. Not say9ing they aren't good or worth it, but I am going a different direction in that I'll be using the ethernet connection on my Ayre QX5 so that I don't have to worry about USB. Even if I did, Ayre has already maximized the USB connections so that I don't hear any difference using a microRendu or the Uptone boxes. It's all about proper engineering from the start and implementation. Then the fine tuning. Folks listen to (me) everyone on these boards and we all have different situations, but what's best for me or Ralf or Johnny or .....isn't necessarily the best for others. JMHO

[Johnseye]

@Ralf11, I've been listening to the Benchmark amp for a few days and just switched to the Audio Alchemy again. Whatever your budget you should also audition it as well as the Benchmark. It's a real tough decision between the two as it's a very good, but different sound. Fuller in the mids I think. It still has a lot of detail, but because the mids are fuller and warmer there's the appearance of it being less transparent or dimensional than the Benchmark. The AA amp comes in monos so you could put one next to each speaker. Just figured I'd share if you do end up replacing the Sunfire.

[TubeLover]

@Ralf11, I've been listening to the Benchmark amp for a few days and just switched to the Audio Alchemy again. Whatever your budget you should also audition it as well as the Benchmark. It's a real tough decision between the two as it's a very good, but different sound. Fuller in the mids I think. It still has a lot of detail, but because the mids are fuller and warmer there's the appearance of it being less transparent or dimensional than the Benchmark. The AA amp comes in monos so you could put one next to each speaker. Just figured I'd share if you do end up replacing the Sunfire.

 

To drive the 3.7i's well, he would also need two of the Benchmarks amps, operating in mono.

 

JC

[Johnseye]

To drive the 3.7i's well, he would also need two of the Benchmarks amps, operating in mono.

 

JC

 

Did you get the WE cable?

[Ralf11]

Thanks - I'll add the AA amp to my list.

[cjf]

Just got done reading thru this thread and just wanted to bring two concerns I have with what looks to be the top contender speaker of choice from what I have gathered. The Paradigm Persona's.

 

I've read one Red Flag statement so far in this thread about the sound characteristic of this speaker and that is it sounding "Forward/Exciting". The other Red Flag in my opinion which plays to the mentioned sound of the speaker is the fact that the design of the Midrange is such that the manufacturer felt it necessary to essentially completely cover the MidRange driver with a permanent grille that appears to choke the driver and force it thru a series of hole the size of a straw.

 

A speaker that sounds exciting at first listen is a bad sign in my experience because its very possible that this excitement will be a burden later and as listening sessions get longer. I think you should seriously consider why the manufacturer decided to almost fully cover their Midrange the way they have on this model.

 

The more laid back speaker at first listen is a better starting point IMO. As it breaks in, it will most likely come forward a bit more. A speaker that starts forward usually comes forward even more, again in my experience.

 

Happy Hunting

[TubeLover]

Did you get the WE cable?

 

Not yet, but I did not make it to the mailbox today, so it could possibly be there. Our mailboxes are in a communal cluster provided by the Post Office, about two blocks from my house. I'll check tomorrow, and report back as soon as I receive them and have the chance to try them out.

 

JC

[TubeLover]

Thanks - I'll add the AA amp to my list.

 

I would also add the PS Audio BHK 250 stereo amp to the short list (or the monoblocks if your finances allow. Here is commentary to a question asked in the PS Audio Forum about how well they would work together by no other than Paul McGowan himself:

Slapshot said

"As the title says, I am considering the potential purchase of a PS Audio BHK 250 stereo amp. It would be intended for use with a pair of Magnepan 3.7i’s. As many of you may know, these speakers present a challenging load, being rated at 4 ohms, and occasionally dropping to 2. I would greatly appreciate it if someone from the technical side of things at PS Audio could comment on whether the amplifier in question would effectively match with this need. Given the relative newness of the amplifier, and shortage of reviews, I’ve not seen any commentary that would clarify this. Thank you for any assistance."

 

"Absolutely! In fact, it was those very speakers I spent a great deal of time with. The BHK will be super happy with that load and sounding amazing!!"

JC

[Johnseye]

Just got done reading thru this thread and just wanted to bring two concerns I have with what looks to be the top contender speaker of choice from what I have gathered. The Paradigm Persona's.

 

I've read one Red Flag statement so far in this thread about the sound characteristic of this speaker and that is it sounding "Forward/Exciting". The other Red Flag in my opinion which plays to the mentioned sound of the speaker is the fact that the design of the Midrange is such that the manufacturer felt it necessary to essentially completely cover the MidRange driver with a permanent grille that appears to choke the driver and force it thru a series of hole the size of a straw.

 

A speaker that sounds exciting at first listen is a bad sign in my experience because its very possible that this excitement will be a burden later and as listening sessions get longer. I think you should seriously consider why the manufacturer decided to almost fully cover their Midrange the way they have on this model.

 

The more laid back speaker at first listen is a better starting point IMO. As it breaks in, it will most likely come forward a bit more. A speaker that starts forward usually comes forward even more, again in my experience.

 

Happy Hunting

 

The more I listen to the Personas the more I'm blown away. I'd like to hear more people's thoughts about them after they audition them as well. I personally don't know the science behind the lenses. They are supposed to align phase. Maybe they just prevent people from ever touching the beryllium without screwing up the sound. All I know is that they sound great.

[bunno77]

The more I listen to the Personas the more I'm blown away. I'd like to hear more people's thoughts about them after they audition them as well. I personally don't know the science behind the lenses. They are supposed to align phase. Maybe they just prevent people from ever touching the beryllium without screwing up the sound. All I know is that they sound great.

I haven't personally but my friend from the store I used to work at who stocks paradigm says he was very impressed with the 9h.

The rest of the system comprises of audio research ref250se, ref 6 and cd9. Usually that system has sonus Faber lilliums and he said it was very impressive how close they come to the lilliums.

 

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