Reference 2 Channel Speaker Recommendations

[Dr Tone]

The Codex has a built in preamp as well. They were compared in preamp mode side by side. You're right in that if it were possible to completely bypass the preamp and send the source cleanly from the DAC (sans preamp) to the amp, then any signature the preamp has on the sound would be eliminated. It's entirely possible that the Codex preamp (not DAC) falls short of the DDP-1, and that's why the DDP-1 sounds better. I could also put another preamp in front of the DDP-1 to change the sound. Have you personally listened to the DDP-1?

 

 

But the DDP-1 @ $2k and its companion PS-5 power supply @ $600 shouldn't be considered a "budget" dac. Audio Alchemy is a modular component system with monoblock amps @ $2k ea, a phono stage @ $1.8k, a streamer (media server) @ $1.8k. If you put it all together you're looking at the same price point as the Devialet 220 Pro you're using which has all those components built in.

Sorry, didn't want this to get into a component peeing match.

 

I just feel the preamp is more the weak link in your system than your amp considering you felt the DDP-1 was a little better than the Codex and Codex doesn't have a very good preamp at all.

[Johnseye]

Sorry, didn't want this to get into a component peeing match.

 

I just feel the preamp is more the weak link in your system than your amp considering you felt the DDP-1 was a little better than the Codex and Codex doesn't have a very good preamp at all.

My apologies as well. I did feel I had to defend the DDP-1. No worries though, we're just discussing audio equipment.

 

The preamp wasn't the weakest link. Prior to getting the DDP-1 I was streaming from JRiver to my Marantz 7701 pre. I do think Marantz make good mid-level gear, and they are very "musical". It was a clear improvement when I began streaming to the DDP-1 over USB. The next weakest link imo was the speakers. I just improved those. While I was at it, thanks to all those in this thread who suggested I replace the Emotiva, that's being done as well.

 

I'm also going to give the Simaudio Moon integrated with DAC an audition tomorrow. This is just to give me an idea of what its amp, pre and dac can do. I would separate those out if I like what I hear.

 

I now have the Persona 3Fs and Sopra 2s at home for a side by side. Along with the Simaudio, Audio Alchemy and Benchmark amps, it should be a fun weekend.

[Dr Tone]

I'm also going to give the Simaudio Moon integrated with DAC an audition tomorrow. This is just to give me an idea of what its amp, pre and dac can do. I would separate those out if I like what I hear.

 

 

Interestingingly I had the Simaudio 600i before switching to the Devialet.

[nihilist]

My apologies as well. I did feel I had to defend the DDP-1. No worries though, we're just discussing audio equipment.

 

The preamp wasn't the weakest link. Prior to getting the DDP-1 I was streaming from JRiver to my Marantz 7701 pre. I do think Marantz make good mid-level gear, and they are very "musical". It was a clear improvement when I began streaming to the DDP-1 over USB. The next weakest link imo was the speakers. I just improved those. While I was at it, thanks to all those in this thread who suggested I replace the Emotiva, that's being done as well.

 

I'm also going to give the Simaudio Moon integrated with DAC an audition tomorrow. This is just to give me an idea of what its amp, pre and dac can do. I would separate those out if I like what I hear.

 

I now have the Persona 3Fs and Sopra 2s at home for a side by side. Along with the Simaudio, Audio Alchemy and Benchmark amps, it should be a fun weekend.

 

Let us know your impression between the 3Fs and Sopra 2s. Should be interesting. Fun weekend indeed!

 

 

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[Johnseye]

I hooked up the Simaudio Moon Neo 340i with integrated DAC to the Personas. It was like putting a blanket over the sound. It felt like when you hold your nose when eating. No defined taste. Just muted flavor. I hooked the AA and Benchmark back up after a few song and am back to some beautiful sound. The Sopras are next.

 

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[Johnseye]

Let us know your impression between the 3Fs and Sopra 2s. Should be interesting. Fun weekend indeed!

 

 

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First impressions of the Sopras are that they are very natural sounding. Clear, articulate and very well balanced. They are the most similar to the Personas of all I have auditioned. The first difference I can hear between the two is that the Sopras are more laid back in a good way. I think they are more relaxing to listen to and less fatiguing. Not that the Personas are fatiguing, they are just more forward. The Personas are brand spanking new so I would expect them to mellow with some burn in. This is tough determining which I like more. I've got a couple days to kick the tires so we'll see.

 

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[ctsooner]

First impressions of the Sopras are that they are very natural sounding. Clear, articulate and very well balanced. They are the most similar to the Personas of all I have auditioned. The first difference I can hear between the two is that the Sopras are more laid back in a good way. I think they are more relaxing to listen to and less fatiguing. Not that the Personas are fatiguing, they are just more forward. The Personas are brand spanking new so I would expect them to mellow with some burn in. This is tough determining which I like more. I've got a couple days to kick the tires so we'll see.

 

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Been following they thread closely just to see if I'm hearing what others hear. I spent the day yesterday at the local shop. I auditioned the Persona 9H (active) and liked what I heard, but not nearly for the price. I was in shock at how much they are asking. I love active or semi active speakers as it frees up the main amp from 100hz up and allows it to sound it's best since it doesn't have to deal with the bass. The speaker is dynamic as heck and top to bottom is nice sounding. It just lacks much of the micro detail I get from my reference in this price range the 30k Vandersteen 5ct. I like the Persona better than I like the Wilson or Magico as it doesn't have the break up those two show in the lower ranges. I did like the ARC correction they used, but it does mask things a spec. I heard it on Dire Straights Private Investigations. It also has a bit of spit in the sibilance on John Mellancamp's higher registers.

 

Going down in the line, I felt it loses anything the 9H gives you. It's not dynamic and the balance is WAY off. The bass breaks up and not just at the 50hz area (that's his room walls moving too much, lol). The mids were just there. I have heard better mids from speakers costing 1/4 of the price.

 

Then I listened to the Focal Sopra line. I don't remember the numbers of the speaker, but one is in the 15k range and a floor stander and the other was the larger one that adds a couple of woofers. I didn't bother to ask the price as I couldn't listen more than a song. They were that bad. I asked if they were set up correctly or if there was something wrong. There were no dynamics. They sounded very flat to me. I'm used to beautiful mids that are detailed and non fatiguing. These speakers won't fatigue in the least, but they certainly won't excite (at least me). I know the owner isn't the biggest fan (as owners will tell you, they may love the hobby, but they have to make a living and will sell whatever they have to in order to do so. They don't care when companies make small changes for the better. they just want to move product. That said, I know a few guys nationally who have been able to balance both quite nicely. They realize we all like differently things and they do their best to cater to everyone in their product lines and how they audition for you).

 

I haven't heard Focals in a bit, so that's why I went to audition. I was so let down as I used to like their speakers. I was shocked at how bad these sounded.

 

The amps were Krell's top of the line. I'm not a big Krell fan, but I don't think that had anything to do with what i heard, since the 9H's sounded pretty good for the most part.

 

Heading to NYC today and will stop by a shop or two. Just not sure what I want to listen to today. I've just felt very let down recently by so many of the offerings I've heard. I spoke at length yesterday with the store owner and he said that there are only a few companies he has seen offering great value now days. I am hoping to hear some of those today. Wish me luck.

 

Also, I will try to get down to East End Hifi in LI over the next few weeks if I can. I know they are a Vandersteen dealer and they also carry the AA gear. I really want to give the Lawrence speakers a go too as I've heard good things about them and I think they look cool, lol. I have a feeling those AA amps/dac sound great with a pair of Vandersteen's. I've heard that from more than a couple of guys who either have that set up or have auditioned them together.

[Johnseye]

Going down in the line, I felt it loses anything the 9H gives you. It's not dynamic and the balance is WAY off. The bass breaks up and not just at the 50hz area (that's his room walls moving too much, lol). The mids were just there. I have heard better mids from speakers costing 1/4 of the price.

 

I'll have to look back through this thread to see what your recommendations were, other than the Vandersteens. The 9H is in a different category, but for $35k. I do think the lower models carry the same sound signature and do well in the higher frequencies. My thought was to add a sub for 2.1 for more bass extension. To my ears they are still the best I've heard to date. Can you expand what you mean by "not dynamic and the balance is way off"? I'd like to try and hear what your hearing.

 

Also, if you have any thoughts on adding a sub for 2.1 and have a recommendation I'd appreciate it. My considerations to date are the JL Fathom and REL.

 

Then I listened to the Focal Sopra line. I don't remember the numbers of the speaker, but one is in the 15k range and a floor stander and the other was the larger one that adds a couple of woofers. I didn't bother to ask the price as I couldn't listen more than a song. They were that bad. I asked if they were set up correctly or if there was something wrong. There were no dynamics. They sounded very flat to me. I'm used to beautiful mids that are detailed and non fatiguing. These speakers won't fatigue in the least, but they certainly won't excite (at least me). I know the owner isn't the biggest fan (as owners will tell you, they may love the hobby, but they have to make a living and will sell whatever they have to in order to do so. They don't care when companies make small changes for the better. they just want to move product. That said, I know a few guys nationally who have been able to balance both quite nicely. They realize we all like differently things and they do their best to cater to everyone in their product lines and how they audition for you).

I hadn't thought of it that way but now that you've said it, flat is a good description. I was hearing natural and laid back, but flat is another way to look at it. I think the Sopra 2 is around $13k so maybe what you were listening to.

[ctsooner]

I'll have to look back through this thread to see what your recommendations were, other than the Vandersteens. The 9H is in a different category, but for $35k. I do think the lower models carry the same sound signature and do well in the higher frequencies. My thought was to add a sub for 2.1 for more bass extension. To my ears they are still the best I've heard to date. Can you expand what you mean by "not dynamic and the balance is way off"? I'd like to try and hear what your hearing.

 

Also, if you have any thoughts on adding a sub for 2.1 and have a recommendation I'd appreciate it. My considerations to date are the JL Fathom and REL.

 

 

I hadn't thought of it that way but now that you've said it, flat is a good description. I was hearing natural and laid back, but flat is another way to look at it. I think the Sopra 2 is around $13k so maybe what you were listening to.

 

Yes, it was the 2. In the past the Focals I heard (and have owned when they were the JM Lab company) were 3D in their presentation. That's partly the Krell I think, as the Meridian DAC with MQA is a very good DAC.

 

I listen to a lot of gear. The Paradigm's (I still own a pair that my daughter has in college and I had my brother purchase for his home theater) are nice speakers. They share a bit of the Vandersteen sound and for a reason that I won't post on a board. The can be a bit boosted and forward if not paired with good electronics, but the new Persona line is totally different.

 

I heard the first pair that demoed around the country on the second stop it made many months ago. They only had about 5 hours on them and the high end was ragged and the bass was a bit flabby, but the bones were there. the thing that makes them magical to me is the fact that they are an active bass speaker. I also like the room correction as long as it's set up properly after break in. As I said, I heard the room correction a bit, but it's better to have that veil than to deal with it's in room response which was not good. The rooms at the store just aren't what they need to be, but it's the best he can do. I'd rather hear in a room that has that 50/60hz excitement and know it's there to listen around it. As long as it doesn't get into the mids, I'm fine with that as I don't have major bass problems in my room.

 

I have reference gear in various price ranges. If someone likes a natural sound sitting up front in the orchestra seats or at the center table at The Blue Note in the Village, then I do like the Vandersteen speakers in the 14k, 30k and 60k range. I don't like subs most of the time as they don't integrate well in most system. I need a coherent system that sounds like a point source and isn't lifted in the high end. Measurements usually bear out what I like and don't like for highs. Wilson, B&W and others boost their highs to make their speakers sound more 'lively' and it's very fatiguing over the long haul. Soooo many listeners are told that this is more open sound or better sound etc..., but it's distortion and not more detailed. If you listen to the roll off of notes (blues guitar play like Bonamassa or SRV or Clapton show this off), you hear it naturally and not have it just cut off like many speakers do. If you listen to Mellancamp, listen to his S's. Are they natural, or is it spitty....don't know how else to put it?

 

What about the initial contact of the snare drum in any genre of music? Can you hear the initial contact and does it sound correct? I get all of this properly with Vandersteen's at all price ranges. You can call what they say marketing as it is. They call their drivers pistonic and that's how they give you lower distortion. Call it what you want, but to my ears they are less distorted and more open. I hear things if I really listen to them that I don't get on other speakers. I have heard the Maggies sound OUTSTANDING, but ONLY when the highs are padded down with those resisters they have. The problem for me is that they don't go low in the bass at all. I love their coherency that the panels give you and the Vandersteen is the closest thing to a point source I've found in a box. Sound like a commercial, but I love the Proac line with the new ribbon tweeters. The problem there is the bass is lacking for the prices, but I'd give them a listen in a heart beat.

 

There are some very small companies `who are making nice speakers, but for the cost aren't up to speed with larger companies who will most probably be around in years to take care of broken drivers etc... It's a decision that folks need to think about when purchasing any gear. I've been burned too many times by getting gear from companies who screwed dealers and lost their network etc... I take a lot into consideration when I get my own gear, let alone share with fiends who ask me to help them. I've been doing this for fun since the early 70's and like to think that I have a clue.

 

I'm friends with many a designer who's gear I don't like or love and I like some gear from folks I don't know. To me it's about system matching more than anything. It's not about buying the gear of the month and putting them all together and expecting anything special. It just doesn't work like that and I really hate to read folks using cables to 'tune' their systems. Just buy good products from the get go and get a nice neutral cable like Audioquest or Cardas and be happy. I never understood folks spending so much on cable and cords, when they can do a full component upgrade that would sound MUCH better than a cable upgrade that just may be changing the sound.

 

Again, many hate my posts, because I go against what is conventional thinking. I'm not a shill for any company as much as it may seem. Heck, I never liked Vandersteen until recently as I never heard them set up and used properly.

 

That's why I'm meticulous in my auditions and ask a lot of questions before getting started. I know the downfalls of the store I listened at yesterday, but that wouldn't change the basic sound signature of the speakers and amps I listened to. Feel free to contact me off the board if you want. Does this site have a PM deal? I know I have my email all over my signature et..., lol.

[Dr Tone]

Flat might be the best way to describe Focals. I certainly don't call them laid back, give them volume and they have all kinds of mid range punch, just the whole sound stage is recessed and not very 3d. The highs in the 5k-10k range on my Focal Electras were measurably boosted. I've listened to the Sopras a couple time and again that top end was still too much for me.

 

ctsooner, I've yet to hear this boosted highs on Wilson's you talk about. It must be related to that Focal tweeter they used for years. The new Silk Dome is rather polite in comparison.

 

On a side note my Codex finally arrived and the dealer lent me his Cardis balanced cable for my Hifiman Edition Xs. Very nice sounding, another league over the Simaudio Moon 230HAD I was running prior.

[Johnseye]

Flat might be the best way to describe Focals. I certainly don't call them laid back, give them volume and they have all kinds of mid range punch, just the whole sound stage is recessed and not very 3d. The highs in the 5k-10k range on my Focal Electras were measurably boosted. I've listened to the Sopras a couple time and again that top end was still too much for me.

 

ctsooner, I've yet to hear this boosted highs on Wilson's you talk about. It must be related to that Focal tweeter they used for years. The new Silk Dome is rather polite in comparison.

 

On a side note my Codex finally arrived and the dealer lent me his Cardis balanced cable for my Hifiman Edition Xs. Very nice sounding, another league over the Simaudio Moon 230HAD I was running prior.

Probably just semantics. Recessed sound stage, not 3D I am equating to laid back. In comparison to the Personas they are less 3D, more recessed and laid back. The Benchmark has a huge impact on this. I used the Simaudio with the Personas for a couple songs and had to stop listening.

 

I'll have the AA amp today to compare and will share my thoughts.

[Johnseye]

Feel free to contact me off the board if you want. Does this site have a PM deal? I know I have my email all over my signature et..., lol.

 

I just sent you a PM. If you can't access it let me know and I'll just post it in the thread. Nothing secretive, just questions about a good 2.1 sub. Thanks.

[ctsooner]

I just sent you a PM. If you can't access it let me know and I'll just post it in the thread. Nothing secretive, just questions about a good 2.1 sub. Thanks.

Was in NYC listening to music all day and then picked up son at train so didn't have the ability to really get back. Let me read...

[bunno77]

Probably just semantics. Recessed sound stage, not 3D I am equating to laid back. In comparison to the Personas they are less 3D, more recessed and laid back. The Benchmark has a huge impact on this. I used the Simaudio with the Personas for a couple songs and had to stop listening.

 

I'll have the AA amp today to compare and will share my thoughts.

So happy you are looking beyond the Emotivas.

 

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[ctsooner]

So happy you are looking beyond the Emotivas.

 

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The Belles Aria integrated is a KILLER at around 1800 or so I think it is. It's so musical and a great buy in audio.

[Johnseye]

So happy you are looking beyond the Emotivas.

 

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Thanks to you and @Rexp, the amp change has significantly improved the sound of my system. It opened up the B&Ws beyond what I thought was possible, and what the Benchmark does in combination with the Personas is amazing. First impressions of the Audio Alchemy DPA-1 is that sounds "close" to the Benchmark and in combination with the DDP-1 extremely better than what I heard with the Simaudio Moon Neo. I have a lot more listening to do this weekend and hope to draw some differences in detail.

 

I have the Persona C and Prestige 55C on loan to try and match a center. The Persona C is $7k retail, however the dealer is providing a significant discount, but still over what I want to spend on a center. I auditioned the 55C last night, with the first movie I've watched since getting the Personas, and the soundscape is in a completely different world from the B&Ws. I'm also going to audition the Sopra center as it's a lower cost option, but still uses the beryllium.

 

As my listening room is a theater room I have all my equipment about 20ft from the front speakers. The speaker wire is 30+ ft as it runs up the wall through pipe in the ceiling to my equipment closet. When sharing an amp for surround and 2 channel listening this was necessary. I also have a 20ft run of RCA for my turntable preamp to the amp. By adding the new amp I'm moving all my 2 channel equipment up to the front of the room. Last night I pulled some ethernet cable through the innerduct to the front of the room. That was a pita. Even though I installed a pull rope when I first built the room it wasn't easy.

 

I'll now have 5-6 ft speaker cable runs and a 3 ft. RCA run. I expect this to have an impact. I've been reading up on the Western Electric WE16GA and Duelund DCA16GA cable. I've ordered some of the WE cable in both 16 and 10 gauge for a comparison. I'll also pick up some of the Duelund for another comparison. Another cable I'm going to try is the Belden 8402 RCA interconnect cable for my turntable. If I like it I may try the comparable Belden balanced interconnect cable.

[ctsooner]

You really need to match the center with ur main speakers or you will

Most probably regret it. At the level you are playing you will. It be happy over the long haul I don't think. Jmho

 

 

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[bunno77]

Happy beyond belief.

All that reconfiguration sounds to be for the better. I will enjoy reading where you end up. I have the paradigm 30th anniversary tributes (also beryllium) I compared them to the previous signature s8 and so favourably. I found quality amps and relaxed amps are what I liked but my halcro gets the most out of them for sure.

You are in seriously good territory and nothing sounds bad.

 

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[bunno77]

S6*

 

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[TubeLover]

I've been reading up on the Western Electric WE16GA and Duelund DCA16GA cable. I've ordered some of the WE cable in both 16 and 10 gauge for a comparison. I'll also pick up some of the Duelund for another comparison. Another cable I'm going to try is the Belden 8402 RCA interconnect cable for my turntable. If I like it I may try the comparable Belden balanced interconnect cable.

 

I've also done some research on the Western Electric WE16GA and Duelund DCA16GA cables. I can't find anywhere to purchase either in bulk, to make some speaker cables, except the Parts Connexion (which is highly overpriced for the Dueland). Were you able to find it or the Western Electric available elsewhere?

 

JC

[Johnseye]

I've also done some research on the Western Electric WE16GA and Duelund DCA16GA cables. I can't find anywhere to purchase either in bulk, to make some speaker cables, except the Parts Connexion (which is highly overpriced for the Dueland). Were you able to find it or the Western Electric available elsewhere?

 

JC

 

Parts Connection is their US distributor and as far as I can tell the least expensive place to get their cable in the US. It's $9.99 per meter so 3.28 ft. It doesn't appear to be sold as a pair so you would need to double up. I have about 5-6ft per run so I'm looking at about $80 total. That's not bad considering the cost of high end silver cable or other ridiculously priced cable. By comparison I paid half that for the 10GA Western Electric cable. The WE16GA which carries all the hype, has the exact same markings except the gauge. So considering AIW made it I expect it to be the same wire, and I can determine how much gauge actually matters at such short runs. Because of the hype around the WE16GA its cost was slightly more, for a thinner cable. We're still not talking much in the grand scheme of things, and this will be a fun experiment. If it sounds better than my current 12AWG CL2 Monoprice cable, and based on some reviews it should, then I have a low cost improvement.

[Johnseye]

You really need to match the center with ur main speakers or you will

Most probably regret it. At the level you are playing you will. It be happy over the long haul I don't think. Jmho

 

 

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This is my concern too so I'll be auditioning the centers for a couple weeks. My dealer has been very generous with time. I'll be giving the Persona center a listen today. I have a pretty good impression of the Paradigm Reference 55c now. The Sopras were the closest in timber I've heard to the Personas. The only issue is they are flatter or more laid back. Just thinking out loud right now, but to my ears that almost sounds more natural, as opposed to forward and outstanding. Sopras also offer surrounds which is appealing if I want to match.

[Johnseye]

So the Sopras are going home today. I really did like their sound, but the Personas are slightly more exciting and revealing. I'm confident I've made the right decision. I never did listen to the Wilson's but will eventually. Even though I've selected the Personas, the quest for better sound is ongoing. As all of us in this hobby know, especially in the world of digital audio, there are a never ending amount of tweaks we can make to change our sound. If you have listened to the Personas or just want to share your opinions on any speakers you have heard that impressed you, please continue to post your thoughts here.

 

I've been doing side by side comparisons with the Personas, Sopras, Benchmark amp, Audio Alchemy amp from both digital and vinyl sources all weekend. It's been a lot of fun and for a little while I thought I liked the AA amp better than the Benchmark, but today I realized that no there is a clear difference in the spatial dimensionality. The Benchmark puts the music into a wider and more forward soundscape, increasing the space and positioning of the instruments in the room. I noticed it did this with my B&Ws as well, but didn't try the AA with those speakers.

 

The AA is like the Sopras in a way. It is more laid back or less forward. This also equates to being more flat or less dimensional. This type of listening has its benefits. I think it's less fatiguing and perhaps more like sitting in the audience where the sound is coming from a defined plane in front of you. It's what I heard when listening with my B&Ws and yes, the Emotiva. What I've found is truly different from that experience and now can enjoy both in different rooms.

[Ralf11]

if the Audio Alchemy amp is even close to the Benchmark it would be a value buy, as they can be had used or as demos for about half the Benchmark's price (which is too new to be available used)

[Johnseye]

if the Audio Alchemy amp is even close to the Benchmark it would be a value buy, as they can be had used or as demos for about half the Benchmark's price (which is too new to be available used)

 

You can get a demo'd AA amp at Music Direct for half the cost of the Benchmark new. When both new there is a $1k difference. A lot in this hobby depends on how much you can spend for what incremental improvement or change in sound. Another dependency is the ability to audition equipment either in the store or in your home. The internet has opened this up and some companies will even let you demo very expensive, and heavy, speakers with only the cost of shipping, which can be expensive. I only had to travel out of state to hear the Vandersteens but I also didn't hear everything on my list.