Reference 2 Channel Speaker Recommendations

[Johnseye]

I think you'll like the sopras.

Emotiva is a great way to ruin your investment in new speakers.

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Why such a dislike of Emotiva?

[bunno77]

Experience.

I worked for a retailer who sold Emotiva.

I was excited when we started to stock it after all I had read previously. I desperately tried to like it but all their products were put to shame in simple a/b testing.

If you like it then don't listen to me but I urge you to do some a/b testing with other amps.

Everything we stocked was more enjoyable to listen to. Primare, rega, plinius, audio research, McIntosh, Anthem and even devialet.

If you were looking at entry level speakers around the 1k mark then sure Emotiva is a suitable match.

As an example I was at a hifi show recently that had a room with focal sopras. They had a naim setup and an all in one micromega amplifier and did some a/B demos. With Naim they were incredible. With micromega the crowd were deflated and wanted to turn it off. Matching the amps/pre will drastically change how the speaker performs/sounds

[GUTB]

Guys what about Salk??

 

 

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[TubeLover]

Guys what about Salk??

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

 

I certainly would not discount Salk. I spent several hours at their showroom in December, and was extremely impressed. On top of the exceptional sound reproduction, the fit and finish, and cabinetwork was simply incredible. Jim Salk is also a great guy, and their customer service is legendary. I spent an entire month auditioning speakers from just about every manufacturer that makes speakers in the class that you are looking for. The ONLY reason I didn't buy from Salk was a ridiculous (as in an offer you can't refuse) deal offered to me, the day before New Years, on a speaker I could not even otherwise have afforded.

 

JC

[Johnseye]

I certainly would not discount Salk. I spent several hours at their showroom in December, and was extremely impressed. On top of the exceptional sound reproduction, the fit and finish, and cabinetwork was simply incredible. Jim Salk is also a great guy, and their customer service is legendary. I spent an entire month auditioning speakers from just about every manufacturer that makes speakers in the class that you are looking for. The ONLY reason I didn't buy from Salk was a ridiculous (as in an offer you can't refuse) deal offered to me, the day before New Years, on a speaker I could not even otherwise have afforded.

 

JC

What speakers did you end up buying?

[witchdoctor]

After doing some power research I decided to buy the Benchmark AHB2. They have a 30 day audition period so little risk involved. I think it's the best way to determine if I can hear a difference between another amp and my Emotiva. The Benchmark was made with digital music in mind. It's supposed to be incredibly revealing with the lowest noise and distortion levels out there at this price point. My second option was, and still may be the Parasound A21.

 

That Carver amp was sold for under $300. I was very tempted, especially at that price point. I'll probably never know how good it is, but I suspect the Benchmark will be amazing, if it matters at all.

 

Back on to the speaker side of the coin. I gave the Legacy Focus SE driven by a Raven tube amp a listen over the weekend. I like this speaker a lot. A full, well balanced sound. Very good high end through an excellent low end. These have become my second choice pushing the PSB T3's down a notch. The only reason why they aren't #1 right now is that they're a little slower than the Paradigm Personas. The Personas are such fast and clear speakers. My problem is I can't find a dealer with the 3F's. I was able to listen to the 5F's but the 3 is one less woofer. Tomorrow I'll be auditioning the Vandersteen Treo CTs.

 

For $3000 that Benchmark amp better be good

[Ralf11]

Stereopile thinks it is Class A - cheapest one IIRC

[Johnseye]

For $3000 that Benchmark amp better be good

 

The AHB2 boasts a signal-to-noise ratio that exceeds 132dB and total harmonic distortion figures of –131dB (3rd harmonic) and –122dB (2ndharmonic) under no-load conditions; it also exhibits, so Benchmark claims, “no trace” of crossover-notch distortion, though it is Class AB, not Class A.

Stereopile thinks it is Class A - cheapest one IIRC

 

Class AB. You should also check out the Absolute Sound's review. There are several others out there as well.

 

The THX AAA system combines an intentionally low-bias, class-AB output section with an auxiliary low-power, feed-forward amplifier; the latter drives the former with a correction signal that's claimed to eliminate distortion before it reaches the loudspeaker outputs. Tied to the AAA technology is a system of class-H power-supply rails that track power demands in order to increase amplifier efficiency without the penalty of added distortion; the power supply itself is a regulated switch-mode type that uses resonant switching, claimed by Benchmark to reduce noise.

 

Here is an interesting quote from the Absolute Sound because it mentions the Carver Sunfire which we've been discussing earlier in this thread.

 

"The truth is that if electronics, particularly solid-state electronics, are correctly designed, they just work: When they don’t sound neutral the reason is typically some limitation or flaw in the design, being pushed beyond their rated power, an interaction with untoward speaker loads and/or cabling, or a flavor the designer consciously built into it (e.g., the exceptionally pretty Gundry dip Bob Carver designed into his Sunfire amplifiers). The Benchmark will reproduce a bright, forward sound if it’s in the source, as it is with a vengeance in Bernstein’s New York recording of Copland’s Appalachian Spring, and it will produce a warm and intimate sound if that is in the source, as in Ofra Harnoy’s Arpeggione sonata by Schubert."

 

Output: 100Wpc into 8 ohms, both channels driven; 190Wpc into 4 ohms, both channels driven; 380W bridged mono into 8 ohms; 480W bridged mono into 6 ohms

THD+N: 1kHz, < 0.0003%

SNR & dynamic range: 132dB A-weighted, stereo mode; 135dB A-weighted, mono mode; 130dB unweighted, 20Hz to 20kHz, stereo mode; 133dB unweighted, 20Hz to 20kHz, mono mode

Frequency response: 0.1Hz to 200kHz, +0/-3 dB

Input impedance: 50k ohms, normal mode; 1M ohms, common mode

 

[TubeLover]

What speakers did you end up buying?

 

A pair of Sonus Fabers that I never thought I would be able to afford.

 

JC

[Johnseye]

I will be very interested to hear your listening comparison of the Benchmark AHB2

 

I put the Benchmark AHB2 in line the other night. It should be noted that with the volume at maximum my Emotiva is very quiet. With nothing playing I can hear a small amount of white noise or hiss from the tweeter up to a foot away but that's all. With the AHB2, which is regarded as one of, if not the quietest amps out there, I literally had to put my ear to the tweeter to hear the faintest of noise at max volume.

 

With music playing I can absolutely hear a difference. It's mostly in the low end. The high end is about the same, but the bass from my B&Ws is fuller and deeper. I think this also translates slightly into the mids as well. I would equate the improvement to what I've heard by adding the microRendu and fiber media converters. When I did that I was able to hear a sonic resonance or energy that wasn't there previously. But that's the level of increment I've experienced by using another amp. The amp is $3k. The mRendu and media converters were about $1k together. Keep in mind this is all new gear and needs to break in so there could be more improvement.

 

Last night I was able to bring a pair of Paradigm Persona 3F's home. I spent about 3 hours listening to digital sourced music and an hour of vinyl. Good God. These speakers are amazing. I've been listening to the same tracks over and over while auditioning speakers so I know them well. Being able to use my equipment and listen to other music including vinyl is great. A real apples to apples comparison to the B&Ws.

 

When I was in the store listening to the Persona 5Fs I got chills. Listening to the 3F's at home is a whole other level. I was literally being tickled by the sound. These weren't chills, the sound pressure was tickling me. That was interesting but not as important as the sound. These speakers put the music into a 3 dimensional plane. I didn't just hear the instruments and vocals in their correctly imaged positions left to right, I heard them both closer or further from me. For some of you this may be a common experience but I've never heard this from speakers I've owned. The clarity and precision of the 5F were still there with the 3F. It was difficult to tell the difference in mid or bass if there was any. I would think that with an extra driver the 5F would get a little louder in that range, but the frequency response is the same.

 

I hope I can give the Legacy Focus a home audition. If not I will bring the AHB2 into the store for a more accurate comparison. At this point I think I'm sold on the Personas however. I will also listen to the Sopra 2 tomorrow.

[Ralf11]

Thx! the bass from my B&Ws is fuller and deeper (with the Benchmark)??

 

the 3F's are $10k for a pair, is that right? or $5k for a pair?

 

BTW, saw you SYF and you may be aware that the Cornell shows are coming out on DP's

[Johnseye]

Thx! the bass from my B&Ws is fuller and deeper (with the Benchmark)??

 

the 3F's are $10k for a pair, is that right? or $5k for a pair?

 

BTW, saw you SYF and you may be aware that the Cornell shows are coming out on DP's

Yup, with the Benchmark there was a very noticeable expansion of low end dynamics. Additionally, more of the expected frequency range may be audible now where it wasn't before. So an all around improvement.

 

They are $10k for the pair. The 5F's are $17k for the pair so a big step up for nominal gain.

 

I ordered the 5/8/77 show on vinyl, although I'm very disappointed that they digitally remastered it. I have another '77 show that was released on vinyl a year or two ago on record store day. All my other shows are digital now. I still have some older cassettes but they do a lot of work cleaning up the sound digitally. I understand why, but would love to hear this show as a true analog source.

[witchdoctor]

That's nice to hear such a good impression of the paradigm/s. While I use JBL's in my desktop I have a 14.1 Paradigm Reference Active setup in my home theater. 7 Reference Active 40 bed channels, 2 Paradigm Reference 20 wide channels, 4 Reference Active 20 height channels and 1 Active Shift A2 VOG channel. The Active versions have bass extension below 35 HZ and its a shame they stopped making them.

[Johnseye]

I was able to audition the Focal Sopra 2's this weekend. I immediately liked them and equate it to the beryllium tweeters as the Personas also use them. Some differences between the two are that the Personas use beryllium for both mid and tweeter, not just tweeter, but the Sopra tweeter is supposedly thinner which is patented. Not sure how accurate this info is but the rep was knowledgeable. The Sopras also had good deep low end and the music at different frequencies stayed clear and defined, not muddy.

 

All other equipment was McIntosh so the Sopras hot what they needed to sound good. I got to take home a McIntosh mc152 so had some fun comparing that with the Benchmark last night. The Mc has a more mellow sweet tone, smoother but only subtly and less transparent. I will drop that off on Thursday and pick up the Sopras for a home demo.

 

I think I'm sold on the Personas and Benchmark but want to be absolutely sure. The Legacy Focus will get one more listen but no home demo. My wife will give some final input for a second opinion.

[Dr Tone]

Beryllium or any metal tweeter for that fact can add allot to the top end and excite our senses but extended listening can be problematic and listening fatigue can become an issue. Warmer source equipment like McIntosh or tube gear is almost a must in my opinion. Proper room treatment can help as well by reduce that treble from bouncing around the room.

 

I've owned Focal 826W for short period and 1028BEs for a longer period and my ears took a beating and still haven't fully recovered.

 

If you are considering the 5F price, give the Wilson Audio Sabrinas I warned you about earlier a listen.

[Johnseye]

Beryllium or any metal tweeter for that fact can add allot to the top end and excite our senses but extended listening can be problematic and listening fatigue can become an issue. Warmer source equipment like McIntosh or tube gear is almost a must in my opinion. Proper room treatment can help as well by reduce that treble from bouncing around the room.

 

I've owned Focal 826W for short period and 1028BEs for a longer period and my ears took a beating and still haven't fully recovered.

 

If you are considering the 5F price, give the Wilson Audio Sabrinas I warned you about earlier a listen.

I've found the McIntosh dampens the tone a little more than I'd like. Once I started listening to the Personas with Benchmark the energy really opened up. You're right about possible fatigue though and time will tell if it becomes tiring. I may consider a tube preamp at some point if that becomes an issue.

[rikirk]

If Chicago is not too far away, before pulling the trigger I highly recommend to visit John at Van L Speakerworks and give a listen to the Silhouette. He also carries many well regarded amps to match. I can guarantee it is worth the experience.

[ctsooner]

I'd recommend a pair of Vandersteen Treo's with the Carbon fiber tweeter. I just sold a pair to upgrade to the more expensive Quatro's that have the built in powered sub. They are very extended with natural timber. The bass goes very low, but unlike many others is is musical and tight. It's one of the more coherent speakers I've heard. Even some reviewers say it sounds more like a panel speaker than a box and the sound is very much like a point source. No smearing of notes and extremely fast.

 

I run Ayre AX5/20 integrated and Ayre QX5/20 on them (or did). I have friends who own them and use the Ayre reference gear as they keep sounding better and better with better gear. Just another thought as they are hard to beat under 10k. good luck.

[Ralf11]

I've found the McIntosh dampens the tone a little more than I'd like. ...

 

Just because you have the best transformers, doesn't mean they should be used...

[Johnseye]

I'd recommend a pair of Vandersteen Treo's with the Carbon fiber tweeter. I just sold a pair to upgrade to the more expensive Quatro's that have the built in powered sub. They are very extended with natural timber. The bass goes very low, but unlike many others is is musical and tight. It's one of the more coherent speakers I've heard. Even some reviewers say it sounds more like a panel speaker than a box and the sound is very much like a point source. No smearing of notes and extremely fast.

 

I run Ayre AX5/20 integrated and Ayre QX5/20 on them (or did). I have friends who own them and use the Ayre reference gear as they keep sounding better and better with better gear. Just another thought as they are hard to beat under 10k. good luck.

I listened to the Treo's. You're right, the bass goes very low. They are relaxed and musical, but not as clear and defined as I'd like.

[ctsooner]

I listened to the Treo's. You're right, the bass goes very low. They are relaxed and musical, but not as clear and defined as I'd like.

 

Wow, really? Very shocked as that's one of the things they do extremely well. Ultra low distortion and with the pistonic motion of the drivers with no smearing they are normally as clean as you can get. What were you playing them with? Cables? Just never heard that before. We all hear differently though. They aren't tipped up as many speakers are, so sometimes you need to spend some time with them to understand them.

[witchdoctor]

Wow, really? Very shocked as that's one of the things they do extremely well. Ultra low distortion and with the pistonic motion of the drivers with no smearing they are normally as clean as you can get. What were you playing them with? Cables? Just never heard that before. We all hear differently though. They aren't tipped up as many speakers are, so sometimes you need to spend some time with them to understand them.

 

Don't be shocked, put them in a different room or partner with different equipment and you get a different result. Plus people have different tastes

[Johnseye]

Wow, really? Very shocked as that's one of the things they do extremely well. Ultra low distortion and with the pistonic motion of the drivers with no smearing they are normally as clean as you can get. What were you playing them with? Cables? Just never heard that before. We all hear differently though. They aren't tipped up as many speakers are, so sometimes you need to spend some time with them to understand them.

 

I wrote about this earlier in the thread:

 

"I drove through Indianapolis today and stopped by Tone Audio run by Mark Maryanovsky. A real stand up guy and great to talk with. He's a cellist in the Indianapolis orchestra and has started his store 30 years ago. He carries Vandersteen and Dali which led me there. I auditioned the Vandersteen Treo CT and Dali Rubicon 6. The Rubicon 8's would have been a better comparison but he didn't have them in the store. Both speakers were run with Ampzilla 2000 monoblocks.

 

I thought the Vandersteen's had a great, embracing, warm sound. A full tonal quality with low bass and decent highs. Mark compared listening to these as if you were sitting out in the seats in front of the orchestra. This was in contrast to the Dali's which were much more detailed but lacked the deeper lows of the Treo CT's. I think the Rubicon 8s with an additional driver would have compared better in the low end, but the Treo's have a bass port on the bottom which really fill the room. He compared listening to the Rubicons to sitting amongst the musicians in the orchestra, where you can pick out the individual instruments."

[witchdoctor]

I wrote about this earlier in the thread:

 

"I drove through Indianapolis today and stopped by Tone Audio run by Mark Maryanovsky. A real stand up guy and great to talk with. He's a cellist in the Indianapolis orchestra and has started his store 30 years ago. He carries Vandersteen and Dali which led me there. I auditioned the Vandersteen Treo CT and Dali Rubicon 6. The Rubicon 8's would have been a better comparison but he didn't have them in the store. Both speakers were run with Ampzilla 2000 monoblocks.

 

I thought the Vandersteen's had a great, embracing, warm sound. A full tonal quality with low bass and decent highs. Mark compared listening to these as if you were sitting out in the seats in front of the orchestra. This was in contrast to the Dali's which were much more detailed but lacked the deeper lows of the Treo CT's. I think the Rubicon 8s with an additional driver would have compared better in the low end, but the Treo's have a bass port on the bottom which really fill the room. He compared listening to the Rubicons to sitting amongst the musicians in the orchestra, where you can pick out the individual instruments."

 

Are you keeping the Benchmark amp?

[Johnseye]

Are you keeping the Benchmark amp?

 

I am. I liked it better than the McIntosh. It drove the Personas well. If I ever wanted more power I could add another for bridged mono mode. The noise floor of this amp is next to nothing. Now is it better than my Emotiva? Yea it is, at a cost. There is a significant difference. The best improvement will come from these speakers however.

 

If anyone gets a chance to listen to the Personas please post your experience. I'd like to hear other's opinions.