Reference 2 Channel Speaker Recommendations

[rikirk]

32 minutes ago, ctsooner said:

Johnny (and anyone else in the Chicago area), I found a small dealer who has the Vandersteen Treo's for you to stop by and audition.  They are not on the Vandersteen site, but Superior Audio in Chicago has them.  If you can't find them, let me know and I'll get his contact info for you.  Hope this helps you.

 

Thank you Pete, the funny thing he's five minutes away from home. I already called for an audition on Tuesday.

[ctsooner]

Johnny, I just realized that I've been to this guys store.  I walked there a few years ago when I was in Chicago for an OU football game vs ND.  He's a great guy who really knows how to set up a system.  He has Conrad Johnson amps as well as some less expensive stuff like McCormick and some others that aren't on his site.  

[ctsooner]

Rikirk, very cool.  email me at [email protected]   I want to hear about the visit as I have friends who are always asking about dealers. I want to see if you have the same good experience with him that I had.  I loved how he just set it all up and we listened for hours. He knew that I wasn't going to purchase from him (I'm always up front with dealers so I don't waste their time).  They will always tell me if they don't have the time, but honestly, most of them enjoy it as I go when they aren't busy.  I don't go out on Saturday's to waste their times, lol.

[Ralf11]

Sure, but I'd be fine with SS producing those euphonic attributes

 

I hope you can get used to the black knobs on it - mine has the classic look knobs (tho actually the black ones were used way back when)

 

unfortunately, mine has twist & hold actuation so they only look good

 

mine does have the nice toggle switches on it

 

 

5 minutes - I am going to guess you don't live in Cabrini-Green

[Johnseye]

If SS sounds as good or better that's a winner. No tubes to replace. I'm kind of hoping the Benchmark is exactly that including a better DAC. 

 

Cabrini is a nice place now. They tore out those projects years ago and the money has moved in. Ironically they relocated many of those living there to the suburbs, including one not far from me. Someone I worked with lived near them and had some horror stories to tell. 

[Ralf11]

I hear the row houses are still there but the high-rise warehouses where they packed people in so badly were demo'd.

 

 

The DAC-3 should be pretty good - I think Benchmark is one of those co.s that doesn't put out a new model until it is an advancement.

[Johnseye]

Row homes were built during the relocation phase to allow some residents to stay. They don't look bad by comparison.

[louisxiawei]

@Johnseye Thanks for sharing the impression of Persona on CA

 

My friend told me the Persona 7F showed on Munich this year was impressive. He told me the sounding is very natural, vivid, holographic yet with high-resolution, being very competitive against other very good speakers like Vivid audio, Magico, etc. Having said that, I still need to give them an audition in person to confirm it. 

 

Unfortunately, Paradigm Persona is quite unknown in the UK at the moment, no demo at all through the whole country. Feeling sad. 

 

Not quite sure about ARC technology or semi-active design of 9H. As far as I know, compared to 7F, 9H has two extra rear bass units shooting back to do the vibration cancelling. I don't know whether this design is more for a active-driving purpose or to better reduce the distortion as Paradigm claims. But don't know why Paradigm doesn't put rear bass unit into the  7F since they basically have the same size of chamber.

 

I personally am quite interested into the fully passive model 7F. I prefer driving the whole units by a good amp itself. Can you please share some comparison impression among 7F, 9H and your 3F? Thanks in advance. 

 

 

[Johnseye]

21 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

tube pre-amps seem to differ in their sound - have you compared an Audio Research with any of these?

 

or a Conrad-Johnson?

 

 

 

Ok. Now I see why you like Audio Research. It must pair very well with your Maggie's. The LS28 puts the Rogue RP5 to shame. After what I just heard I unplugged the Rogue and it's done. Granted the LS28 is twice the Rogues price but they aren't even in the same league. Now I do get to use my Benchmark and XLR with the AR but that shouldn't matter this much. 

 

Here's how I would describe what I hear. Full midrange without any loss of high end clarity or low end. Instruments have a larger point of presence. Not unrealistic like I heard when listening to Martin Logan's. Accurate,  but clear, defined and full. Now I've built my entire system around clarity and accuracy. It loses none of that but adds a slightly larger presence.

 

The difference between the AR and AA is like wood compared to metal. The AR is slightly soft like a large fluffy cloud. The AA is smaller, almost more realistic to the actual size of the instrument but it loses something by being that small and accurate. Listening through the AR is almost like listening under a magnifying glass. It's easier to hear the interplay between instruments because they're more present. It  creates a better musical balance.

 

Finally it's similar to what I heard with the Vandersteen's as far as musicality can describe the sound except I still have all the clarity. If there's one negative it's that I lose a  very small amount of the dimensionality. Really not that much in relation to what is gained. 

[Ralf11]

I kinda hate to say this, but have you listened to a Ref5 SE?

http://www.arcdb.ws/REF5/REF5.html

 

 

Thanks for the descriptions!

[Johnseye]

2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I kinda hate to say this, but have you listened to a Ref5 SE?

http://www.arcdb.ws/REF5/REF5.html

 

 

Thanks for the descriptions!

 

This my first time hearing an any AR device. The dealer compared the LS28 to the Ref 6 but I haven't even begun to compare specs yet.  What do you think about the 5 SE? 

[ctsooner]

If you are looking at this type of tube gear, you should also include the Aesthetix line. I personally like Jim White's gear a bit better than AR and CJ. I just told my Rhea (had to finally give up changing records even though it still beats digital (sorry guys and gals)).  BTW, I have owned and loved AR, CJ and Jadis over the years, so for me to say Aestheix needs to be in that discussion,....Lot's of great choices, but it's all about what goes best together of course.

[Ralf11]

I know the Ref5SE costs $13,000.  Waay more than I would pay.

[Johnseye]

22 minutes ago, ctsooner said:

If you are looking at this type of tube gear, you should also include the Aesthetix line. I personally like Jim White's gear a bit better than AR and CJ. I just told my Rhea (had to finally give up changing records even though it still beats digital (sorry guys and gals)).  BTW, I have owned and loved AR, CJ and Jadis over the years, so for me to say Aestheix needs to be in that discussion,....Lot's of great choices, but it's all about what goes best together of course.

 

No need to apologize. I appreciate the suggestion. The same dealer that loaned me the AR carries the Aesthetix Calypso. Is that the preamp you're thinking of? If so I can give it a listen. Thanks. 

 

18 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I know the Ref5SE costs $13,000.  Waay more than I would pay.

 

I can find it used for $7k.  Question is whether it sounds better. 

 

[ctsooner]

Yes, that's the preamp.  I have learned the hard way, that the products I end up loving and keeping for 10 or more years are the ones that I purchase new and that maybe didn't blow me away on first listen per say. 

 

My personal deal is that I was never fully happy with my system over the years. Always wanting to change a cable or two or tweek or even changing brands or an amp or source.  It was always something.  That's because I wasn't really buying a system, I was buying flavor of the month gear or what was A rated (if I could afford it), but not always what WENT together best.  I also realized that often times the most dynamic or detailed or extended high end gear (speakers are the worst) in the showroom became fatiguing once home and I chased the tail like so many of us do trying to dial it all in, when in fact I just bought what the dealer liked even if my hearing was totally different.  As much as I love Johnny at Audio Connections and I send friends there all the time, we hear differently.  

 

I have learned how different we are and make that mental adjustment when we discuss what I need/want. I've learned that I don't need validation when purchasing.  I read the boards and participate, but I look at what I own and its not the popular choice like Magico, Wilson, B&W or the like.  

 

I've also found that going to audition within a few days of attending a live music event is best.  It's a great reference.  

 

Lot's of great recommendations we have all made, but what will go best in YOUR system?  I can honestly say that I've heard Aesthetix pre amps sounding better with AR amps than AR pre's.  I've heard AR pre amps blowing me away playing into the Aesthetix Atlas mono's (both through Vandersteen 7 mk2's).  Certain companies gear just sounds outstanding with others, but not always.  I have owned many tube pre amps playing through SS amps and visa versa.  I've never heard any of my tube pre's not sound great running the SS amps I've had (Conrad Johnson, Counterpoint (what a great sound, too bad about poor QC), AR, Aesthetix, Jadis, Quicksilver, Audible Illusions, Rogue are some of the tube companies gear I've owned or had in the system for months on loan).  

 

Sorry to drone on and maybe it makes no sense in this thread, but I have reread the last few pages and thought I'd share personal situations.  Always good for us all to look at things with other's eyes to learn more.  Just like in life:  I know what I don't want, but never know what I really want and that keeps things going forward.

[Ralf11]

a good dealer will be like a good wine merchant - they'll recall your preferences and suggest something along those lines for your hearing or drinking pleasure

 

----

 

People (and ARC themselves) often comment that the LS-xx sounds as good as the Ref-y from several years ago.  No idea re the LS-28.  I like to buy refurbed or used - partly due to having dealt with the leading edge in my profession (or my 1st profession I guess).  The leading edge is the part that gets blunted quickly...

 

I have ergonomic concerns with the Aesthetix pre-amps.  I like knobs.  It is an esthetic thing, which is part of the total experience.  maybe not much of it, but...

[ctsooner]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

a good dealer will be like a good wine merchant - they'll recall your preferences and suggest something along those lines for your hearing or drinking pleasure

 

----

 

People (and ARC themselves) often comment that the LS-xx sounds as good as the Ref-y from several years ago.  No idea re the LS-28.  I like to buy refurbed or used - partly due to having dealt with the leading edge in my profession (or my 1st profession I guess).  The leading edge is the part that gets blunted quickly...

 

I have ergonomic concerns with the Aesthetix pre-amps.  I like knobs.  It is an esthetic thing, which is part of the total experience.  maybe not much of it, but...

As I've always said, we all like to do things differently.  Would be boring any other way.  Yes the new AR gear does sound better than the old ref gear.  That's pretty normal for most companies as they evolve.  

 

As for the ergonomics, again, we all need different things. I loved owning the Rhea because of the best remote I've ever seen.  Having the ability to control the gain and everything else and have 3 settings so you can keep two or three preferences even if you don't use two or more tone arms was just awesome. I personally only use remotes, so I guess I never notice knobs or switches too much. Again, different strokes.  To my ears though I do feel the Aesthetix gear sounds better than the AR gear within similar price ranges  and they are all built like tanks just like AR.They really stand behind their gear, even after it's out of warranty they are very fair in their prices to fix if needed, plus they offer an upgrade path that worth it when you are ready to move up.

 

Again, I have no horse in the race and also love the AR gear.  I just can't have tubes anymore which is too bad. Some of the newer Quicksilver gear is also worth looking into as it's much less I believe and is outstanding.

[Johnseye]

On 8/19/2017 at 3:38 PM, ctsooner said:

As I've always said, we all like to do things differently.  Would be boring any other way.  Yes the new AR gear does sound better than the old ref gear.  That's pretty normal for most companies as they evolve.  

 

As for the ergonomics, again, we all need different things. I loved owning the Rhea because of the best remote I've ever seen.  Having the ability to control the gain and everything else and have 3 settings so you can keep two or three preferences even if you don't use two or more tone arms was just awesome. I personally only use remotes, so I guess I never notice knobs or switches too much. Again, different strokes.  To my ears though I do feel the Aesthetix gear sounds better than the AR gear within similar price ranges  and they are all built like tanks just like AR.They really stand behind their gear, even after it's out of warranty they are very fair in their prices to fix if needed, plus they offer an upgrade path that worth it when you are ready to move up.

 

Again, I have no horse in the race and also love the AR gear.  I just can't have tubes anymore which is too bad. Some of the newer Quicksilver gear is also worth looking into as it's much less I believe and is outstanding.

 

Do you recall if the Calypso was quiet when not playing music or if it exhibited any noise?

I am going to start a thread on my pre auditions.  This thread has taken some turns, but the number of pre's I'm going to be comparing deserves its own thread.

[ctsooner]

I have heard the Calypso mostly with Vandersteen 5's and up which are very high resolution.  I have never heard tube rush with them.  To me all tube amps have some sort of noise and will never be as quiet as say my Ayre amps that I've owned (insert Dagastino, Boulder or other top named SS amps of high quality).  

 

Tubes just have some noise. Jim's amps are easily as quiet as any of the tube amps, plus it's a zero feedback amp, which doesn't get enough press in my mind.  Ayre, to my ears, are the first amps that sound neither SS nor tube.  Boulder and Dagastino are right there also.  Just a bit different voicing, but all their amps are outstanding, but expensive.  I was a tube guy until the last 5 years or so.  That's all I owned for so many years. I had SS amps in other systems, but my main one was always tubes.

[Johnseye]

On 3/1/2017 at 6:33 PM, Dr Tone said:

Sorry, didn't want this to get into a component peeing match.

 

I just feel the preamp is more the weak link in your system than your amp considering you felt the DDP-1 was a little better than the Codex and Codex doesn't have a very good preamp at all.

 

@Dr Tone I need to thank you now for getting me to reconsider the pre.  I ended up buying an ARC LS28 and it has a bigger impact on my sound than the amp.  I went back and listened to the DDP-1 as pre after becoming accustomed to the LS28.  While the Persona speakers have had the biggest impact by far, I hear a clear difference between the DDP-1 and LS28.  By contrast, even though one's a SS and the other tube they don't sound that dissimilar in tone.  There are specific differences and the most noticeable are the larger soundstage and smoother character of the LS28.  It was a struggle choking down $7.5k to get that, but once I heard it I couldn't go back.  Also, thanks to @Ralf11 for the ARC recommendation.

[Dr Tone]

16 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

@Dr Tone I need to thank you now for getting me to reconsider the pre.  I ended up buying an ARC LS28 and it has a bigger impact on my sound than the amp.  I went back and listened to the DDP-1 as pre after becoming accustomed to the LS28.  While the Persona speakers have had the biggest impact by far, I hear a clear difference between the DDP-1 and LS28.  By contrast, even though one's a SS and the other tube they don't sound that dissimilar in tone.  There are specific differences and the most noticeable are the larger soundstage and smoother character of the LS28.  It was a struggle choking down $7.5k to get that, but once I heard it I couldn't go back.  Also, thanks to @Ralf11 for the ARC recommendation.

 

Now that you have a dedicated pre the sky is the limit and you can start auditioning straight DACs again.   

[Johnseye]

22 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

Now that you have a dedicated pre the sky is the limit and you can start auditioning straight DACs again.   

 

Exactly my thought as well.

[Rexp]

Congrats on your new pre, after the source, the pre is the next most important piece in the chain IMO.

[Ralf11]

5 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

@Dr Tone I need to thank you now for getting me to reconsider the pre.  I ended up buying an ARC LS28 and it has a bigger impact on my sound than the amp.  I went back and listened to the DDP-1 as pre after becoming accustomed to the LS28.  While the Persona speakers have had the biggest impact by far, I hear a clear difference between the DDP-1 and LS28.  By contrast, even though one's a SS and the other tube they don't sound that dissimilar in tone.  There are specific differences and the most noticeable are the larger soundstage and smoother character of the LS28.  It was a struggle choking down $7.5k to get that, but once I heard it I couldn't go back.  Also, thanks to @Ralf11 for the ARC recommendation.

 

Sure thing - wanna send me your Benchmark?

 

After all, it is now not so important...

[ctsooner]

I'm always amazed by folks who don't use a pre and try to tell everyone that you don't need one.  My Ayre QX5 DAC has the best digital volume control I've heard to date.  It's the only one I have heard that doesn't deteriorate the sound the lower you play it.  It's still not even close to using a decent preamp.  

 

Lot's of great pre's out there too, but I think most don't audition and buy on price too.  It's amazing how good your system can sound when you have a top pre.  We all put our money in different places.  I fell in love with my speakers in so many systems, so I budgeted for them.  I decided to go with an integrated which has an incredible pre and was able to get a great amp for the cost of most very good preamps.  Also one less component, plus one less set of cables.  

 

Lot's of ways to set up a system.  So many great DAC choices out now too.  Glad you found ARC...