Reference 2 Channel Speaker Recommendations

[Dr Tone]

24 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

I think the JL Fathom is pretty good.  No complaints so far.  I did want a sub that could be both musical and for HT.  Auditioning a sub or any surround speakers isn't like the front mains.  I probably watch a movie or two a week.

 

My 2 channel and HT gear only share the front main speakers.  Otherwise all components are separate, even cabling.  

 

JL is good stuff.  If I was doing a sub for 2.0 only, I would probably look at REL with a slightly smaller driver for a little more speed.

[tboooe]

31 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Do you ever find those low frequencies or vibrations distracting, or do you get used to it?

 

I am not sure what you mean here?  I dont find the low freq to be a distraction since they are just part of the music.  Using room correction I have my low freq fairly flat up to 1k hz so there is no annoying hump or bass bloat.  I think the bass with my 2 subs is tight and accurate.  Aside from room correction, I also have lots of bass traps in my room too.  

[tboooe]

7 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

JL is good stuff.  If I was doing a sub for 2.0 only, I would probably look at REL with a slightly smaller driver for a little more speed.

Exactly why I chose dual REL subs with 8" drivers for my 2 channel only setup.  In my modest room and the kind of music I listen to, these subs work perfectly for me.

[Johnseye]

Just now, Dr Tone said:

 

JL is good stuff.  If I was doing a sub for 2.0 only, I would probably look at REL with a maximum 10" driver for a little more speed.

I did consider REL.  I talked with a couple REL dealers and they actually recommended JL who they carried as well.  I really like the REL ability to match up with the main pair by connecting to the main's binding posts.  They said the JL crushed REL in the HT category however and stands up very well in 2 channel.  Unless I were creating a dedicated 2 channel listening room I opted for the best overall sub.

[Ralf11]

It's useful to think of what instruments (usually) produce fundamentals below 30 or 35 Hz.  Pipe organs, yes.

 

a Moog can and even a piano can but maybe not too common.

[Dr Tone]

11 minutes ago, tboooe said:

 

45 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Do you ever find those low frequencies or vibrations distracting, or do you get used to it?

 

I am not sure what you mean here?  I dont find the low freq to be a distraction since they are just part of the music.  Using room correction I have my low freq fairly flat up to 1k hz so there is no annoying hump or bass bloat.  I think the bass with my 2 subs is tight and accurate.  Aside from room correction, I also have lots of bass traps in my room too.

 

 Not sure but I think he meant localizing the bass come from your subs if not right by your speakers.

[Dr Tone]

@Johnseye If you haven't already the other thing you can do with a single sub is put it right between your speakers, it should help reduce localization a bit.  Of course the lower you can cross over the less you will localize as well.

[tboooe]

8 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 Not sure but I think he meant localizing the bass come from your subs if not right by your speakers.

 

In that case...I have both subs just behind and to the outside of the speakers.  I do not hear any localizing of the subs.  I believe my crossover freq is about 37hz.

[Dr Tone]

Just now, tboooe said:

 

In that case...I have both subs just behind and to the outside of the speakers.  I do not hear any localizing of the subs.  I believe my crossover freq is about 37hz.

 

I didn't either when I did the same thing.  2 subs right by the speakers.

[Johnseye]

15 minutes ago, tboooe said:

I am not sure what you mean here?  I dont find the low freq to be a distraction since they are just part of the music.  Using room correction I have my low freq fairly flat up to 1k hz so there is no annoying hump or bass bloat.  I think the bass with my 2 subs is tight and accurate.  Aside from room correction, I also have lots of bass traps in my room too.  

 

14 minutes ago, tboooe said:

Exactly why I chose dual REL subs with 8" drivers for my 2 channel only setup.  In my modest room and the kind of music I listen to, these subs work perfectly for me.

 

You have the perfect 2 channel sub solution.  Another reason why I didn't go with the REL is that I needed an XLR in to avoid a ground loop and extended distance from my HT pre.  Only the REL Gibraltar series has that.

 

Localization is my first issue.  Once that is resolved, if I buy another sub, I need to better blend the subs in with 2 channel.  I don't use a pre with a crossover so I handle that with the sub itself which is subject to manual imperfection.  JL has the CR1, a crossover device, but I'd be more interested in a good pre to manage that.  What room correction do you use?

 

6 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

@Johnseye If you haven't already the other thing you can do with a single sub is put it right between your speakers, it should help a bit.  Of course the lower you can cross over the less you will localize the the bass coming from the sub.

 

I moved the sub closer to the center, but am limited because of the center channel speaker.  It helped slightly.  I also lowered the crossover as well as a couple other settings to help it blend in better.  I can get it to a better place, but by making sacrifices.

[Johnseye]

4 minutes ago, tboooe said:

 

In that case...I have both subs just behind and to the outside of the speakers.  I do not hear any localizing of the subs.  I believe my crossover freq is about 37hz.

 

It appears 2 subs are necessary.  Because I only have 12 ft. in width I'm limited in placement.

[Dr Tone]

7 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

It appears 2 subs are necessary.  Because I only have 12 ft. in width I'm limited in placement.

 

Would you dealer let you trade the 112v2 back for 2 x 110v2 and place one right beside each speaker on the inside?

[Johnseye]

Just now, Dr Tone said:

 

Would you dealer let you trade the 112v2 back for 2 110v2 and place one right beside each speaker on the inside?

 

He would, but if I step down to the 110v2 the low end FR is about 27.  Granted that's in an anechoic chamber and not a listening room.  Any reason why you'd recommend two 110's vs 112's?

[Dr Tone]

3 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

He would, but if I step down to the 110v2 the low end FR is about 27.  Granted that's in an anechoic chamber and not a listening room.  Any reason why you'd recommend two 110's vs 112's?

 

I was primarily thinking cost and your limited space.  In theory the 10" driver would be faster and have better definition with music.

 

Overpowering your room might also become a concern with 2 bigger subs?

[Dr Tone]

With 2 subs and a proper crossover you could bring your cross over point back up again which would probably make your speakers sound even better, they wouldn't have to work as hard down low.

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, Dr Tone said:

 

I was primarily thinking cost and your limited space.  In theory the 10" driver would be faster and have better definition with music.

 

Overpowering your room might also become a concern with 2 bigger subs?

 

1 hour ago, Dr Tone said:

With 2 subs and a proper crossover you could bring your cross over point back up again which would probably make your speakers sound even better, they wouldn't have to work as hard down low.

 

I'm starting to think two 110s is the way to go and I probably won't miss anything in FR compared to the benefits.  They'll be better than one 112 all around.

[Ralf11]

I think 2 subs are usually better.  There is also an interesting approach using several subs, but I forget the name of the manf. -- starts with a "D"...

[Johnseye]

3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I think 2 subs are usually better.  There is also an interesting approach using several subs, but I forget the name of the manf. -- starts with a "D"...

 

Definitive?

[Ralf11]

could be (??) I just tried a search but failed (maybe it isn't just hair cells in my cochlea that are thinning out...)

 

anyway, it uses a computerized design to optimize itself (maybe once only?) - also the guy is really good about telling people they should use something else in their room

[Dr Tone]

@Johnseye I was looking and the 5F wouldn't have got your the low end you wanted either.  The 7F would have certainly done the trick but are also twice as much as your 3Fs.

[TJHUB]

I don't nomally like to post like this, but there is some misinformation in some posts.  Larger drivers do not automatically equal slow, and small drivers do not automatically equal fast.  There is so much more to it than that.  It is nearly impossible to locate bass frequencies, especially below 80Hz.  If you think you can, your imagination is taking over.

[Johnseye]

54 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

@Johnseye I was looking and the 5F wouldn't have got your the low end you wanted either.  The 7F would have certainly done the trick but are also twice as much as your 3Fs.

 

That was why I went with the 3Fs.  I thought I could supplement with a sub for lower cost and get a better solution.  If I started looking at something up to the $20k mark I'd probably look at a different mfg.  The 9H is really where it's at but that's over 3x the cost of the 3Fs.

 

34 minutes ago, TJHUB said:

I don't nomally like to post like this, but there is some misinformation in some posts.  Larger drivers do not automatically equal slow, and small drivers do not automatically equal fast.  There is so much more to it than that.  It is nearly impossible to locate bass frequencies, especially below 80Hz.  If you think you can, your imagination is taking over.

 

Maybe there is expectation bias but you say nearly impossible.  It is possible that my phase isn't aligned correctly.  Also, I can't detect where it is when watching a movie, but when the sound is consistent as with music I can hear and feel where it's coming from.

 

What more should be considered besides the size of the driver?  I know there is more but would like your thoughts.

[Dr Tone]

19 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Maybe there is expectation bias but you say nearly impossible.  It is possible that my phase isn't aligned correctly.  Also, I can't detect where it is when watching a movie, but when the sound is consistent as with music I can hear and feel where it's coming from.

 

It's not your imagination it's easily locatable below 80Hz especially on sweeping left to/from right kick drum that has any amount of decay.  At that point you might imagine it in other scenarios but it's in your head at that point.  Your focus is a little different when watching movies and the bass has so much more impact in movies locating it is irrelevant as it's everywhere.  The bass in music has a little more finesse.

[Ralf11]

Construction details of the drivers and etc. can influence perceived "speed" as can the ability of the amp to control the motor.

 

Standing waves, not just localisation issues, are often an issue that can be solved (or at least altered) with multiple subs.

[Ralf11]

ok, I think I found that multi-sub setup - it's called the SWARM system by AudioKinesis

 

(the D must have come from duh)