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Reference 2 Channel Speaker Recommendations


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10 hours ago, GUTB said:

Well, I got in a D-Sonic, the M3-800S, which is a 400W per channel stereo amp. It only took a few days to receive it as it was shipped within the same state. The M3 series I believe uses the latest Pascal class D module, which features a lot of technical wizardry that goes way over my head to reduce switching noise artifacts further than the Pascal modules already were capable of. In addition to the Pascal module with power supply, D-Sonic has their in-house designed input stage.

 

Taking my Chinese 845 SET off the vibration control platform and putting the D-Sonic in it's place, I sat to listen knowing it was going to suck, like 99% of everything in this hobby does until a lot of burn-in time is provided. And suck it did. Mid-range, sucked into oblivion. Resolution and control, as would be expected, went up, but euphonics vanished along with the mids. Soundstage with the Felix Carbon VIIs remained wide, but it was flattened -- not completely, but depth perception was reduced. With the extra control it was cool to listen to orchestra and compressed rock/pop play while my speakers actually able to render it all. That's fine. But without euphonics, it was bad, bad, bad, bad, BAD.

 

So I'm sitting here, posting this, with my ears now safely underneath my Utopias....ah, resolution, dynamics, rich mids, wonderful treble, non-room-distored-bass, musicality...ahhhhh....now I wonder what am I doing all this for...

 

Sigh. So, does anyone know how long a class D needs to break in?

 

GUTB,

 

If your listening to Focal Utopias through an even half decent HP amp and source, you simply are not going to be able to reproduce the resolution, accuracy, detail, transient precision and richness of everything (I do think "dynamics" as normally defined can be equaled/bettered) with anything less than a 6 figure Wilson/Magico/etc. level 2 channel rig, and even then it will have to be one hell of a room (probably another $100k at least).

 

That is the thing about the "personal audio" revolution - it is SSSOOOOO much more cost effective to get incredible top-crust hi-fi sound.  I am a bit surprised your even trying to compare your 2 channel efforts to your HP rig ;)

 

I have heard some systems at audio shows that rival the Utopia/LCD-4/etc. everything (for $olagarch$ money), but I don't think I have been in a presence of a 2 channel rig that truly equals them, probably because I have not been around such systems in a room that equaled their capability.

 

I say all this as one who truly prefers (most of the time) to listen to 2 channel, if nothing else because of the comfort level of HP degrades after a short time.  I wonder what others think, but when I really want to hear a recording in it's true glory, I reach for my HP's...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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2 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

I have a 5 figure 2 channel rig that destroys any head phone rig out there.  But I also prefer to listen to music that is presented properly in front of me not gobs of detail projected in the middle of my head or so hard panned left right it gives me a head ache.

 

;)

 

No offense, but I simply do not believe you (not even just a little bit) ;)  

 

Sure, HP will never be as "dynamic" (you can't "feel" the SPL through tiny speakers attached to your ears) but when it comes to the quality's in the music/experience that GUTB is looking for, a properly setup up HP rig can not be equalled...at least I have not experienced it...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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18 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

I have a 5 figure 2 channel rig in a mostly untreated room that destroys any head phone rig out there, IMO.  But I also prefer to listen to music that is presented properly in front of me not gobs of detail projected in the middle of my head or so hard panned left right it gives me a head ache.

 

;)

 

PS) I also have Hifiman Edition Xs driven by a Ayre Codex at work.

 

Agreed.  I'll listen to headphones at work because...it's at work.  At home I won't use them unless I'm recording music.

 

12 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

No offense, but I simply do not believe you (not even just a little bit) ;)  

 

Sure, HP will never be as "dynamic" (you can't "feel" the SPL through tiny speakers attached to your ears) but when it comes to the quality's in the music/experience that GUTB is looking for, a properly setup up HP rig can not be equalled...at least I have not experienced it...

 

I disagree.  Now I've only listened to the Elear to compare and not Utopia, but regardless.  You do not need 6 figures to create an excellent 2 channel speaker environment.  Not even close.  Don't limit yourself to HPs by thinking it can't be done.  Get out and listen, or take some stuff home to audition.  You'll be very surprised.

 

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26 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

No offense, but I simply do not believe you (not even just a little bit) ;)  

 

Sure, HP will never be as "dynamic" (you can't "feel" the SPL through tiny speakers attached to your ears) but when it comes to the quality's in the music/experience that GUTB is looking for, a properly setup up HP rig can not be equalled...at least I have not experienced it...

 

I used to own Focal Speakers and I've listened to the Utopia headphones.  As I said I don't listen to detail, I listen to music in an enjoyable presentation.

Roon Rock->Auralic Aria G2->Schiit Yggdrasil A2->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301 Monos->Wilson Audio Sabrinas

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5 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

I used to own Focal Speakers and I've listened to the Utopia headphones.  As I said I don't listen to detail, I listen to music in an enjoyable presentation.

 

And I love detail.  I've tailored my recent purchases at the core of this thread discussion to meet that need.  I've made siginificant improvements for less than $20k that blows away anything I've heard in a HP rig.

 

The imaging, clarity, detail and 3 dimensional space that speakers provide is unparalleled through headphones where the space is all in your head.  One thing HPs do that speakers don't is block out any external noise sources.  It also pumps the sound directly into your ears as opposed to surrounding your body with the sound pressure.  In my opinion it's almost two different experiences and I prefer jumping into the pool as opposed to getting my ears wet.

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2 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

And I love detail.  I've tailored my recent purchases at the core of this thread discussion to meet that need.  I've made siginificant improvements for less than $20k that blows away anything I've heard in a HP rig.

 

The imaging, clarity, detail and 3 dimensional space that speakers provide is unparalleled through headphones where the space is all in your head.  One thing HPs do that speakers don't is block out any external noise sources.  It also pumps the sound directly into your ears as opposed to surrounding your body with the sound pressure.  In my opinion it's almost two different experiences and I prefer jumping into the pool as opposed to getting my ears wet.

 

You'll eventually get over that detail obsession you have, it took me years. :D

 

Most of the HPs crenca mention are open so they won't be blocking much at all.

Roon Rock->Auralic Aria G2->Schiit Yggdrasil A2->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301 Monos->Wilson Audio Sabrinas

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5 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

And I love detail.  I've tailored my recent purchases at the core of this thread discussion to meet that need.  I've made siginificant improvements for less than $20k that blows away anything I've heard in a HP rig.

 

The imaging, clarity, detail and 3 dimensional space that speakers provide is unparalleled through headphones where the space is all in your head.  One thing HPs do that speakers don't is block out any external noise sources.  It also pumps the sound directly into your ears as opposed to surrounding your body with the sound pressure.  In my opinion it's almost two different experiences and I prefer jumping into the pool as opposed to getting my ears wet.

 

Oh yes, I agree completely with you and Dr Tone about this aspect of 2ch vs HP, the "stereo" aspect.  I sort of chuckle to myself when I read all the ink spilt in HP reviews about "soundstage" and the like.  Stereo is designed to work in front of you.

 

That said, the qualities GUTB keeps coming back to are the very ones HP excel at.  Is it even possible to equal his Utopia rig with a 2 channel set up?  I suppose theoretically.  He certainly can approach (some percentage - 50, 60, 70 percent say) his Utopia's in these aspects dinkering around with sub $10k equipment in an average room but really, we all know how this movie ends... 

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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Just now, Dr Tone said:

 

You'll eventually get over that detail obsession you have, it took me years. :D

 

Most of the HPs crenca mention are open so they won't be blocking much at all.

 

Maybe.  Right now I'm having a lot of fun being surprised from the little things that jump out at me when listening to music through my new rig.  I will say that classical music is still relatively flat.  Every other genre has taken on a new form except classical.  I go to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra about once a month and I've been trying to compare what I hear there with what I hear at home.  That's been the best exercise.  I think it's tough for speakers to recreate the space heard in an orchestra hall. HPs definitely can't do that.

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1 hour ago, Dr Tone said:

 

You'll eventually get over that detail obsession you have, it took me years. :D

 

Most of the HPs crenca mention are open so they won't be blocking much at all.

 

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

Maybe.  Right now I'm having a lot of fun being surprised from the little things that jump out at me when listening to music through my new rig.  I will say that classical music is still relatively flat.  Every other genre has taken on a new form except classical.  I go to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra about once a month and I've been trying to compare what I hear there with what I hear at home.  That's been the best exercise.  I think it's tough for speakers to recreate the space heard in an orchestra hall. HPs definitely can't do that.

 

And belive it or not my favorite place to sit is in the mezzanine above and to the sides of the orchestra. It's almost like sitting in with them. I've sat in many places in that hall. Front, center and a few rows back is great but the view isn't as good as from above. At rock concerts with speakers, anywhere from front and center, back to the soundboard is ideal. I've never been to a live music performance where headphones are worn. They're used in the studio but usually for sound isolation or to provide a specific feed.

 

One's not better than the other, just different. If you're trying to get a headphone sound out of speakers then I don't know if it's possible without putting a speaker to your right and left next to your ears. 

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There aren't many reviews of the Personas out yet.  In fact the only one I've read is the most recent TAS review of the 9H.  Here's one of the tower and center models I bought.  Ironically, everything the reviewer said is similar if not identical to what I've stated in this post.

 

http://hometheaterreview.com/paradigm-persona-3f-floorstanding-speaker-reviewed/

 

As far as speaker cables go, I think I've settled on the Clear Day Double Shotgun.  After extensive listening and swapping between them, the regular Shotgun, the 12 gauge Monprice copper, Audioquest Rocket 44s and both the 16 and 10 gauge Western Electric cables, I like how transparent the Double Shotguns are and how they match my other components (in sound, not looks).

 

Still not 100% decided whether I can hear any difference with the Clear Day silver interconnects.  If I can it's extremely slight and probably not worth the expense, at least with the XLRs.  The RCAs are where I'm questioning things further.

 

Benchmark AHB2 is a done deal.  The AA amp will get returned to Peter at Axpona.

 

Now here's where I'm having the biggest challenge.  I went with a JL Fathom 112 v2 sub and while it's great for the surround experience, 2.1 channel listening is very different.  I know where the bass from the sub is coming from.  There is so much of it compared to watching a movie.  I still need to watch a concert in 5.1 or listen to an SACD in 5.1 but with 2.1 I can feel that bass coming from the sub and that throws the balance off for me.  I can turn the crossover down below to what I know the main speakers are capable of and still hear, or really feel something.  That tells me that there is music on the recording that wouldn't be heard/felt without the sub.  I just don't know if I like it.  It's almost distracting.

 

I've been in contact with JL and they're helping me dial things in, but that takes time.  I'm wondering if I used a 2.1 channel preamp that would improve things.  There aren't many out there, Parasound being one of them.  It may be worth a trial audition.  If anyone has a recommendation it would be appreciated.

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3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

The AA amp did not sound as good, eh?

 

Very close but no.  It is a high quality amp for its price, and the Benchmark is almost double the cost, but the Benchmark leaves the music raw and uncolored.  The AA still has a hint of that SS class AB sound.

 

Some may not like the complete transparency or lack of color that I've selected in my component choices.  To me it reveals more of the music that I couldn't hear before.  Each one of these components, the speakers, amp and speaker cable lifted away a little bit of a veil covering the music.  Very scientific, I know.  Take my opinion for what it's worth and try out the components yourself if you're looking for a similar sound.

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3 hours ago, Johnseye said:

Now here's where I'm having the biggest challenge.  I went with a JL Fathom 112 v2 sub and while it's great for the surround experience, 2.1 channel listening is very different.  I know where the bass from the sub is coming from.  There is so much of it compared to watching a movie.  I still need to watch a concert in 5.1 or listen to an SACD in 5.1 but with 2.1 I can feel that bass coming from the sub and that throws the balance off for me.  I can turn the crossover down below to what I know the main speakers are capable of and still hear, or really feel something.  That tells me that there is music on the recording that wouldn't be heard/felt without the sub.  I just don't know if I like it.  It's almost distracting.

 

You might want to look at getting 2 smaller subs, they'll be easier to integrate if you can put them close to each speaker.  This isn't the way you are suppose to do it for home theater but it was the only way I could make subs non localizable in 2 channel.  Ultimately I sold everything and went with speakers that don't need subs in my room with 2 channel audio.

Roon Rock->Auralic Aria G2->Schiit Yggdrasil A2->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301 Monos->Wilson Audio Sabrinas

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5 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

You might want to look at getting 2 smaller subs, they'll be easier to integrate if you can put them close to each speaker.  This isn't the way you are suppose to do it for home theater but it was the only way I could make subs non localizable in 2 channel.  Ultimately I sold everything and went with speakers that don't need subs in my room with 2 channel audio.

 

How low do your speakers go?  I'm thinking I don't even need a sub for 2 channel.

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1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

How low do your speakers go?  I'm thinking I don't even need a sub for 2 channel.

 

31 Hz – 21 kHz: +/- 3 dB, RAR (Room Average Response)

 

Of course specifications don't really mean much. When I tried them I knew I wouldn't need a sub.

Roon Rock->Auralic Aria G2->Schiit Yggdrasil A2->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301 Monos->Wilson Audio Sabrinas

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14 hours ago, Dr Tone said:

 

31 Hz – 21 kHz: +/- 3 dB, RAR (Room Average Response)

 

Of course specifications don't really mean much. When I tried them I knew I wouldn't need a sub.

 

31 is pretty low.  A sub will get you down to about 20 Hz which is the bottom of human hearing.  Question is can a sub fill that gap effectively.  You sound happier without one and it was more trouble even trying to get 2 subs working to your satisfaction.

 

Since I'm finding the sub addition more distracting than enjoyable, I question whether it's worth the extra effort or expense to try.  I'm more than happy with the low end of my speakers but knowing there's more sound on the recording, and thus what would have been experienced live, nags at me.

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One of the best audio upgrades I did aside from room treatments and DRC was adding 2 subs.  For the longest time I avoided this because I always thought subs were for movies or people who listen to house music(!).  I have monitors that go down to about 40hz.  I mainly listen to jazz and acoustic music so I thought a sub was unnecessary because these kinds of music surely do not have a lot of bass.  Boy was I wrong!  I am amazed at how much low freq information there is.  Now that I am able to reproduce lower frequencies, the overall perception of dynamic range has improved dramatically.  

 

I agree that integrating subs can be challenging but if you invest in a good microphone and use freeware like REW, you can really dial in the room response and the cross over points.  At least for me, I am very very happy I added 2 subs to my system.  

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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13 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

31 is pretty low.  A sub will get you down to about 20 Hz which is the bottom of human hearing.  Question is can a sub fill that gap effectively.  You sound happier without one and it was more trouble even trying to get 2 subs working to your satisfaction.

 

No, 2 subs right by each speaker removed any localization issues I was having with one.  2 subs worked better.

 

I made sure I didn't need subs when I upgraded my speakers.  Even though I was able to get over localization with 2 subs, no subs will always be better.

Roon Rock->Auralic Aria G2->Schiit Yggdrasil A2->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301 Monos->Wilson Audio Sabrinas

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2 hours ago, Dr Tone said:

 

No, 2 subs right by each speaker removed any localization issues I was having with one.  2 subs worked better.

 

I made sure I didn't need subs when I upgraded my speakers.  Even though I was able to get over localization with 2 subs, no subs will always be better.

 

But you still either got rid of your subs or don't use them for 2 channel despite that you could go another 11 Hz lower. With localization remediate are you just not interested in hearing that low? 

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33 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

But you still either got rid of your subs or don't use them for 2 channel despite that you could go another 11 Hz lower. With localization remediate are you just not interested in hearing that low? 

 

I got rid of my subs when I got my Devialet, the Devialet has something called SAM which extends the low end reach of certain speakers, it did a sufficient enough job that blending got more difficult and unnecessary. This was with my Focal 1028BEs by the way.  I bought my Wilson Sabrinas after I moved into my Condo with a much smaller room.  I don't have room for 2 subs anymore and the neighbors would hear those low frequencies more than me.

 

In all honesty I'd put the money for 2 subs towards the next step up in speaker now if I move back into a larger room where that extra 10Hz would matter.

Roon Rock->Auralic Aria G2->Schiit Yggdrasil A2->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301 Monos->Wilson Audio Sabrinas

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5 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

I got rid of my subs when I got my Devialet, the Devialet has something called SAM which extends the low end reach of certain speakers, it did a sufficient enough job that blending got more difficult and unnecessary. This was with my Focal 1028BEs by the way.  I bought my Wilson Sabrinas after I moved into my Condo with a much smaller room.  I don't have room for 2 subs anymore and the neighbors would hear those low frequencies more than me.

 

In all honesty I'd put the money for 2 subs towards the next step up in speaker now if I move back into a larger room where that extra 10Hz would matter.

 

I needed a new sub for HT surround so it at least serves that purpose.  If I were to buy another it would set me back about $3k.  If I add JL's CR1 for better crossover management I'd be looking at another $3k and probably be better off upgrading speakers as well.

 

2 hours ago, tboooe said:

One of the best audio upgrades I did aside from room treatments and DRC was adding 2 subs.  For the longest time I avoided this because I always thought subs were for movies or people who listen to house music(!).  I have monitors that go down to about 40hz.  I mainly listen to jazz and acoustic music so I thought a sub was unnecessary because these kinds of music surely do not have a lot of bass.  Boy was I wrong!  I am amazed at how much low freq information there is.  Now that I am able to reproduce lower frequencies, the overall perception of dynamic range has improved dramatically.  

 

I agree that integrating subs can be challenging but if you invest in a good microphone and use freeware like REW, you can really dial in the room response and the cross over points.  At least for me, I am very very happy I added 2 subs to my system.  

 

Do you ever find those low frequencies or vibrations distracting, or do you get used to it?

 

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1 minute ago, Johnseye said:

I needed a new sub for HT surround so it at least serves that purpose.  If I were to buy another it would set me back about $3k.  If I add JL's CR1 for better crossover management I'd be looking at another $3k and probably be better off upgrading speakers as well.

 

You need a good sub(s) if you are really into HT sound.  I started out in HT and changed my focus on 2.0 over the years.

Roon Rock->Auralic Aria G2->Schiit Yggdrasil A2->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301 Monos->Wilson Audio Sabrinas

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Just now, Dr Tone said:

 

You need a good sub(s) if you are really into HT sound.  I started out in HT and changed my focus on 2.0 over the years.

 

I think the JL Fathom is pretty good.  No complaints so far.  I did want a sub that could be both musical and for HT.  Auditioning a sub or any surround speakers isn't like the front mains.  I probably watch a movie or two a week.

 

My 2 channel and HT gear only share the front main speakers.  Otherwise all components are separate, even cabling.  

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