Bowers & Wilkins CM1 S2 and Rotel RA-1570 now a new DAC and cables. Any help or suggestions appreciated!

[artsnparts]

Hi everyone,

 

I would like to get your opinion on my system and how to upgrade.

 

I currently have the following setup:

 

Source: Macbook Pro Retina, 2012

Software: Audirvana Plus and Spotify

USB-output: 1x Audioquest Jitterbug

USB cable: *standard*

Bluetooth: Arcam Miniblink receiver

Integrated Amplifier: Rotel-RA 1570 > site: RA-1570 | Rotel

Speaker cable: *standard*

Speakers: Bowers & Wilkins CM1 S2 > site: Experience the B&W CM1 S2 - Bowers & Wilkins | B&W Speakers

 

I have 2 questions:

 

• 1: I would like to upgrade to an external DAC, and I am currently looking at Chord and Schiit. However, listening to videos online, I prefer the sound of Chord more. I am specifically looking at Chord Mojo or Hugo for main setup, and to have mobility on-the-go.

Does a Chord Mojo will sound better than the DAC within my current integrated amplifier? It's a: Wolfson WM8740

 

• 2: Any suggestions for an upgrade in speaker cables? I have been looking at Chord and Van Den Hul so far, because I heard and read they might go well with b&w and rotel. Specifically: Chord Odyssey 2, Chord Epic Twin, Van den Hul CS122.

 

Thanks!

 

p.s. I might add a Curious USB Cable Mojo interlink as well.

[semente]

In all honesty, I don't think you should spend money on cables (just yet).

Instead, save for better speakers; yours, in my view, are the weakest link.

[artsnparts]

In all honesty, I don't think you should spend money on cables (just yet).

Instead, save for better speakers; yours, in my view, are the weakest link.

 

Thanks for your reply. I know they are not the best out there, but I like them because of their size and sound they produce. Right now it's for a 'student' bedroom anyway. I want to get the best out of these speakers. I heard them at the dealer, and they sounded even better there - because of cabling.

 

Does anyone have experience in synergistic qualities between Chord and B&W speakers?

 

Edit: This is a taste issue, but I heard the KEF LS50 Multiple times and I even liked these B&W speakers more, for their warm musical sound.

[mansr]

In all honesty, I don't think you should spend money on cables (just yet).

Instead, save for better speakers; yours, in my view, are the weakest link.

Yes, we know you dislike B&W.

[mansr]

I want to get the best out of these speakers. I heard them at the dealer, and they sounded even better there - because of cabling.

 

More likely the difference is due to the room. Whatever effect cables may have, the room influences the sound far more.

[Ajax]

More likely the difference is due to the room. Whatever effect cables may have, the room influences the sound far more.

 

+1

 

I have owned Rotel equipment in the past and they make very good amplifiers, and B&W make very good speakers, so you most likely already have good gear.

 

So why upgrade? Itchy feeet or are you unhappy with the sound and if so what in particular? You need to understand what is motivating you as the curse of the audiophile is that we all spend money unnecessarily.

 

The Chord Mojo DAC receives a lot of good reviews, however, whether or not it's sound quality will eclipse the Rotel's DAC remains to be seen (heard). I note that the Rotel's DAC is asynchronous meaning that the DAC clocks the data from the computer and would imply it to be of high quality. Only way to be sure is to do a double blind A/B listening test.

 

I any case mansr is correct in suggesting that the room will most likely have a greater impact than upgrading the DAC or cables. If you are a student and funds are tight I would first investigate some inexpensive room treatment and also look at adding a sub (or 2). Your speakers are book shelf size and will not play very low base notes and the Rotel has provision to add a sub and I would search the second hand stores for one.

 

IMO the last thing you should spend your money on is exotic over priced cables .... you will do just as well as to buy some high quality 14 gauge from a company such as Blue Jeans Cables, who will supply the cables with the necessary connections to suit your equipment.

 

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/

 

Finally, if you believe the speakers sounded better in the dealer's shop then they would most likely benefit from either better support, or better placement, or both. Before spending any money I would buy Jim Smith's book, "Get better Sound", and study the chapters on speaker placement.

 

http://getbettersound.com/index.php

 

just my 2cents worth

 

All the best,

 

 

Ajax

[mansr]

I any case mansr is correct in suggesting that the room will most likely have a greater impact than upgrading the DAC or cables, assuming that the DAC inside the Rotel is of a reasonably high standard. If you are a student and therefore funds are tight I would first investigate some inexpensive room treatment and also adding a sub (or 2). Your speakers are book shelf size and the Rotel has provision to add a sub and I would search the second hand stores for one.

 

A sub is a good idea. I have the larger CM6 speakers, and they certainly benefit from a sub. I'd also suggest looking at digital room correction systems.

[artsnparts]

+1

 

I have owned Rotel equipment in the past and they make very good amplifiers, and B&W make very good speakers, so you most likely already have good gear.

 

So why upgrade? Itchy feeet or are you unhappy with the sound and if so what in particular? You need to understand what is motivating you as the curse of the audiophile is that we all spend money unnecessarily.

 

The Chord Mojo DAC receives a lot of good reviews, however, whether or not it's sound quality will eclipse the Rotel's DAC remains to be seen (heard). I note that the Rotel's DAC is asynchronous meaning that the DAC clocks the data from the computer and would imply it to be of high quality. Only way to be sure is to do a double blind A/B listening test.

 

I any case mansr is correct in suggesting that the room will most likely have a greater impact than upgrading the DAC or cables. If you are a student and funds are tight I would first investigate some inexpensive room treatment and also look at adding a sub (or 2). Your speakers are book shelf size and will not play very low base notes and the Rotel has provision to add a sub and I would search the second hand stores for one.

 

IMO the last thing you should spend your money on is exotic over priced cables .... you will do just as well as to buy some high quality 14 gauge from a company such as Blue Jeans Cables, who will supply the cables with the necessary connections to suit your equipment.

 

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/

 

Finally, if you believe the speakers sounded better in the dealer's shop then they would most likely benefit from either better support, or better placement, or both. Before spending any money I would buy Jim Smith's book, "Get better Sound", and study the chapters on speaker placement.

 

Get Better Sound - Get Better Sound

 

just my 2cents worth

 

All the best,

 

 

Ajax

Thanks for the elaborate reply!

 

You're right that Rotel and B&W match - they should, as they're tuned to each other.

 

The reason why I am looking at better cabling is because I am know using generic cheap freebie speaker cables that came with the purchase of the set. I am guessing that right now, any cable upgrade will be worthwhile. I've tried QED copper cables (XT40), but they were actually worse than the generic ones - lol. Now I heard from some other dealers that I have to get speaker cables that consist of silver wiring, because B&W and Rotel are laid-back sounding. Silver would give them a nicer edge. The copper one, made the bass better, but I could barely hear the treble and mids/ vocals.

 

That's why I am interested in either Chord or Van Den Hul speaker cables that contain silver.

 

With regards to the DAC, I heard a lot of youtube videos with Chord Mojo/ Hugo/ TT/ 2Qute setups, and they sounded great to my ear. However, Mojo is the cheapest of the bunch, and I read a lot that it comes close to the Hugo sound. The question is how significant an upgrade a Mojo would be compared to my internal Wolfson DAC.

 

Edit: as for the sound - I enjoy listening to the Chord sound signature: timing, realistic instruments, forward airy vocals, but also van den Hul (cables), because the B&W CM line has VDH internal wiring, causing synergistic effects.

 

I would also like to share my experiences with the whole community of course once I upgrade. Although I appreciate reading a lot of opinions and good ideas on forums, I rarely see people actually making a video of their setup and uploading it to youtube to prove that it is great sounding - we can help each other a lot!

[eganz]

I would stick with inexpensive cables for now. For example, wire world makes nice relatively inexpensive cables. These are neutral and well-made. Remember that the cables will make a relatively small difference in your system.

 

On The other hand, the speaker mounting, and speaker placement will make huge differences. If you post an image of your speakers set up, I'm sure people will give you pointers on how to place them. Stand mounting speakers away from walls and bookshelves would be desirable if possible.

 

E

[mansr]

On The other hand, the speaker mounting, and speaker placement will make huge differences. If you post an image of your speakers set up, I'm sure people will give you pointers on how to place them. Stand mounting speakers away from walls and bookshelves would be desirable if possible.

 

Corners are especially evil. It's also worth experimenting with different amounts of toe-in. The effect can be quite dramatic.

[Rezseeker]

I have B&W cm5 s2 and the Schiit Modi Multibit and curious cable were sublime additions to my system. Warmth, detail and depth. I came from an Arcam rDAC.

I haven't heard the Chord, but from your system I'd highly, highly recommend Schiit+Curious (and an Amber Regen for good measure).

After years of futzing with gear, I'm finally educated and happy with what I have.

I do have a lot of silver in my Kimber wires and they've also given a nice bump.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[eganz]

Regarding the purchase of a new DAC, You'll find it very difficult to hear the real differences via video. If possible, you should go back to your dealer/Or find a friend to compare the sounds of external DACs to the Rotel. in other words, try to listen to the DAC before you purchase it.

But first work on speaker placement .

[crenca]

Regarding the purchase of a new DAC, You'll find it very difficult to hear the real differences via video. If possible, you should go back to your dealer/Or find a friend to compare the sounds of external DACs to the Rotel. in other words, try to listen to the DAC before you purchase it.

But first work on speaker placement .

 

I would say it would be impossible (not just difficult) to hear the sound of a DAC from youtube videos.

 

IMO, the Wolfsan DAC in your Rotel is not bad, but not the most resolving - though I admit I like its sound. The Chord would be a step up in resolution but then I would have to wonder about the "synergy" of the RCA in on the Rotel with the Chord Mojo - which does not even have RCA out's if I am not mistaken.

 

Just order some Blue Jeans cable - and save any "silver" sound for a much cheaper DSP plugin to JRiver or something

[semente]

Yes, we know you dislike B&W.

 

Come on, @mansr , if you've listened to the CM1s you'll know I'm right.

Take a look at the measurements if you haven't.

 

Besides, I find that the "mini-standmount" topology is not adequate to music reproduction, not unless you add a sub that can be crossed at 1-200Hz...

 

R

[mansr]

Come on, @mansr , if you've listened to the CM1s you'll know I'm right.

Take a look at the measurements if you haven't.

 

No, I haven't heard the CM1. The dip around 2 kHz does look worrying. I was expecting you to start complaining about the aluminium dome resonance as though you were able to hear frequencies above 30 kHz.

 

Besides, I find that the "mini-standmount" topology is not adequate to music reproduction, not unless you add a sub that can be crossed at 1-200Hz...

 

Sure, small speakers are always going to be a compromise.

[sphinxsix]

Whatever effect cables may have, the room influences the sound far more.

Agreed on that. Anyway if you want more 'edge' or detail from silver cables - try QED Genesis Silver Spiral (copper-silver 'hybrid') and some older second hand Siltech (ST, SQ series etc) interconnect. Small speakers are compromised as far as bass is concerned but if you put too big ones in a room that is too small you may have problems with lots of 'boomy' bass.

[artsnparts]

I have B&W cm5 s2 and the Schiit Modi Multibit and curious cable were sublime additions to my system. Warmth, detail and depth. I came from an Arcam rDAC.

I haven't heard the Chord, but from your system I'd highly, highly recommend Schiit+Curious (and an Amber Regen for good measure).

After years of futzing with gear, I'm finally educated and happy with what I have.

I do have a lot of silver in my Kimber wires and they've also given a nice bump.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Thanks for this advice. I somehow feel that your system sounds similair to mine, so I am really glad that you could share your experiences with me. Which amplifier are you currently using? And why did you choose that specific amplifier.

 

Also thanks to everyone giving me advice on speaker placement. I know you're all right, because I am getting a 10% improvement when I place my speaker more correctly. The problem is that my current desk space does not allow me for better speaker placement and I can not put them somewhere else. They are about 18cm from the wall and the right speaker is 25cm for the right corner wall.

 

@semente and mansr, thanks - I did not know there was an argument going on between the two of you and B&W lol. The CM1's are actually quite good sounding, although not the best given their size, but at the same time I like them because of their size, it's like their not even there or grabbing attention. That is why I want to get the best sound out of these speakers specifically. Right now for me better equals even more realistic mids, trebles, vocals, not so much bass. It's about clarity and depth, subtleness, not so much a wide soundstage.

 

As for the DAC, unfortunately there are no dealers over here that allow me to connect a Chord Mojo to their setup, so I have to go with what I can find on the internet. Otherwise try a buy, and if I don't like it sell, as demand is hopefully high.

[Rezseeker]

I have a lowly Arcam A19 integrated amp. Some other info (you can see more in my profile). The interconnects with WBT termination were expensive, but all my relatively lowly parts sing thanks to quality ancillaries.Interconnects: Kimber Hero HB terminated with WBT-0102 CuLoudspeaker Cables: Kimber 8VS

[artsnparts]

Here's my current setup:

 

What and how to improve? DAC, cables? Thanks.

[artsnparts]

I have a lowly Arcam A19 integrated amp. Some other info (you can see more in my profile). The interconnects with WBT termination were expensive, but all my relatively lowly parts sing thanks to quality ancillaries.Interconnects: Kimber Hero HB terminated with WBT-0102 CuLoudspeaker Cables: Kimber 8VS

How much did you pay for each of the Kimber cables? I just looked it up and they cost more than the speaker/amplifier?

[eganz]

A good rule of thumb is to spend maybe 10% of your budget on cabling, including all cabling.

 

I think people may have been concerned when you mentioned silver cables, as they might have imagined regarding about solid silver cables which are very expensive.

 

In general, I would recommend Neutral and reasonably priced cables, potentially used.

 

Looking at your set up, it looks like you would benefit by raising your speakers up from your desk using the appropriate solid Mount.

if you find that they are too close to the wall, you can potentially add absorbing material on the wall.

I also own these speakers. I now use them as rear surround speakers In my surround system. I have them mounted on the wall, away from the wall with brackets, and angled towards me. This works well. The speakers have a nice forgiving sound, which is, which is complementary to female voice.

[Rezseeker]

How much did you pay for each of the Kimber cables? I just looked it up and they cost more than the speaker/amplifier?

 

Around $400 for the interconnect (shortest run) a year ago and $200 for the speaker wire maybe 7 years ago

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[artsnparts]

OK - for the interconnects I have the following second hand, all no more than 100 USD price:

 

1. Van den Hul D102 MK III

2. Audioquest Sydney

3. Audioquest Yukon

4. Kimber Hero with WBT 0144

 

My system again: B&W CM and Rotel

Cables (not arrived yet): Van den Hul CS 122

 

Which one should I go for and why? How do their sound qualities compare to one another?

 

Your advice is much appreciated guys!

[artsnparts]

The sound that I am after are vocals that are forward, clear and transparant, and which have "air" around them so that they're not so stuck sounding with all the others sounds, if that makes sense. It has to appear from a pitch black background and hang. To me emotional vocals in audio are the most important.

[eganz]

What is the size of your room?

Do you have a rug? Is the room resonant or damped?

Is there a bed in the room?

When you compare to the sound at the dealers that you like, why do you think it is different? The dealer has good electronics, clean power, treated room, large room etc., and Speakers on stands placed properly.

What is your distance to the speakers, and Are they pointing towards you?

 

E