Best way to play sacd-iso MCH

[harriek]

So you can play sacd-iso-files from you nas to the Dune. Is this in MCH? Or stereo only? And would it be possible to output this digitallly to an oppo 205?

[Brewie]

It is also working for mch Iso files.

I never tried routing it from Dune to Oppo to AVR.

[harriek]

Hmm, this sound very interesting. Playing(read DECODING on the fly) MCH SACD-iso files.

Maybe this mch-stream can be send to and received by the oppo 205 in the DSD format

[Brewie]

I have Converted Most of my iso files to mch dsf or mch flac with foobar because then I can Play Them from NAS to Oppo to AVR...... simplifies my life .

no quality loss 

[Brewie]

I am still waiting for an AVR that can do this all in ONE piece. New AVR's are now capable playing DSD (DSF), FLAC and all kind of formats, but none of them can play .iso or MCH. I think it is a matter of time until they come with these features, because music consumption via NAS and Network is just starting. The technology is there but I guess it is still just a little bit too expensive for the AVR companies to produce it the way OPPO started doing it. Maybe we will even see AVR's with harddisks inside :-)

I do not understand however why a 3000+ Euro AVR cannot do the job..... they should include all technology possible for that money.

If you look at the price of an ESS9038pro we talk about $50 pricetag or so.

 

[Brewie]

I just read that the new Panasonic DP-UB9004 can also play mch FLAC and mch DSD files. It even includes analog output (to use the internal DAC) as well as HDMI for mch and 2x XLR for stereo. Probably it can't deal with .iso like all the others. It looks however that it is capable to match the OPPO  udp 205 for only 950 euro.

[harriek]

Nah not even close to an Oppo 205.

Very(!) nice machine but no match on almost all levels... It's like saying; they both play cd. True but....

[Brewie]

Did you listen to it? I have not had a chance yet. A test was very positive and mentioned that it could even play mch

 

[Kal Rubinson]

On 10/17/2018 at 6:31 AM, Brewie said:

I am still waiting for an AVR that can do this all in ONE piece. New AVR's are now capable playing DSD (DSF), FLAC and all kind of formats, but none of them can play .iso or MCH. I think it is a matter of time until they come with these features, because music consumption via NAS and Network is just starting. The technology is there but I guess it is still just a little bit too expensive for the AVR companies to produce it the way OPPO started doing it. Maybe we will even see AVR's with harddisks inside ?

I do not understand however why a 3000+ Euro AVR cannot do the job..... they should include all technology possible for that money.

I have been asking this question directly of manufacturers for almost a decade now to no avail.  Perhaps the time will come soon.  

[bobbmd]

@harriek: I assume you have ripped your SACD's- I never understood why you would this as you now have a digital copy so how can you get the full expression of the SACD?

My set up for listening to SACD is a Yamaha CD-DVD-A-DVD-SACD changer with 5 or 7 analog rca connections to same connections on my Yamaha AVR and also use an Outlaw Audio ICBM-1 integrated controlled bass manager just can't imagine one would get the same separation /brilliance by ripping the SACD to a file and then playing it from your hard drive/server through a DAC. I never ripped my SACD collection way to complicated and I don't have the equipment anyway. I listen to streaming music both TIDAL(and yes ugh MQA) Qobuz and use ROON and Audirvana A+3 in both 7.1 and 2.1 via both Gungnir pre multibit DAC and a Meridian Explorer 2 DAC at up to up to 24/176.4 and really don't bother with either my SACD or DVD-A collection any more.

I DID rip my DVD-A discs via DVD audio extractor and they sound great but nowhere as good as the original discs via analog connections describe above. Just my observations.

bobbmd

 

[harriek]

@bobbmd

No, I have not ripped my sacd's (although this is really simple, I have two PS3's with CF). I like to play the physical media. (My foremost classical collection link below)The ritual of changing the disc, waiting for the track, reading the booklet...

But I do have a large collection of sacd-iso's that are not available anywhere or at totally ridiculous prices. If I could buy them at normal prices I really would!

And a digital copy (iso-file or sacd-r) is absolutely the same as the original sacd in terms of soundquality.

If it sounds different you do something wrong!

I now have a Oppo 105D with custom firmware for playing sacd-r. And I have a Oppo 205 for playing original sa(cd)'s.

The 205 sounds significantly better (especially with cd) than the 105 but there is no custom firmware for the 205.(for playing sacd-r) 

I really would like to play (mch) my iso-files from HDD or NAS to my 205 and not having to burn them on a dvd-r of rip them to dsd-files.

 

I do not know your equipment so I cannot comment on it.

My 5.2 setup is;

3-way FL,M,FR,RR,RL  and two subs (all in big and heavy sealed enclosures)

FL,M and FR with two woofers, rears single woofer

All units are high-end Scan-Speak units

All units are driven active with class-A Pass-labs (DIY) Alephs 30 and 60 (18x 30W and 60W class-A, yes that is a lot of heat)

The subs (40 Hz and below) are top Scan-Speaks as well and have a high power/quality AB-amp.

24dB LR filters with passive volume control

Source; the two Oppo's.

Total 830~850kg

 

https://www.hraudio.net/library.php?user=10447

[Kal Rubinson]

4 hours ago, bobbmd said:

just can't imagine one would get the same separation /brilliance by ripping the SACD to a file and then playing it from your hard drive/server through a DAC.

It doesn't take any imagination because the quality of the ripped file played back on a quality setup is at least as good as the playback from the disc.

 

4 hours ago, bobbmd said:

I DID rip my DVD-A discs via DVD audio extractor and they sound great but nowhere as good as the original discs via analog connections describe above.

Then there's something amiss in your procedure/setup.

There's no logical reason nor is there anything in practice that prevents the file playback from equalling the disc playback.

[bobbmd]

@Kal Rubinson & @harriek: thanks Kal as i said it's just my ear 'observations' but as i said hardly listen to them anymore just listen my 'library' that is on iTunes(try not to use THAT anymore) as  all my 'ripped music is on TIDAL Qobuz ROON and Audirvana+3 anyway the sound probably is 'equal' as you say. Plus i have hundreds of extensive playlists(regular and 'Masters/MQA) on all the above services and 2 players using the 2 DACs i mentioned and i am in audiophile heaven so to speak- i especially enjoy playing with 2.1 vs 7.1 vs DSP plx music vs pl2 music vs prologic (enhanced and otherwise) vs various venues ie the Bottom Line/Hall in Munich,Vienna, Freiburg, The Roxy Theater  Classical-Opera etc vs  surround sound enhanced surround etc on my rather ancient Yamaha rx-v2500 AVR

thanks for your input also harriek still have no desire to invest in equipment like Oppo etc just to rip SACDs and my CFO would never allow it anyway!!

bobbmd

 

[Kal Rubinson]

3 hours ago, bobbmd said:

@Kal Rubinson & @harriek: thanks Kal as i said it's just my ear 'observations' but as i said hardly listen to them anymore just listen my 'library' that is on iTunes(try not to use THAT anymore) as  all my 'ripped music is on TIDAL Qobuz ROON and Audirvana+3 anyway the sound probably is 'equal' as you say. 

I cannot understand that statement.

[harriek]

5 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I cannot understand that statement.

I have difficulties as well...

[Brewie]

I thought it might be helpful for some readers to learn a little bit more about ripping SACD's, working with MCH formats and .iso etc, so I copied some stuff from the internet from different places. Mybe it helps to find your way in this labyrint.....

 

ISO to DSF (DSD=DSF or DFF) conversion : 

Download ISO2DSD ( Sonore) http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=129913.0

Run the file iso2dsd_gui.exe

Select File Input

Select dual for stereo conversion and multi for MCH conversion

Select Sony DSF

Select the ISO file and execute. Target file is created in sonore directory on pc (not on NAS!). Source directory can be on NAS.

 

[Brewie]

Play ISO files via PC with Foobar2000:

download Foobar 2000,

+ foobar extention DSDIFF  https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_input_dsdiff      Adds decoding support for DSDIFF files (.DFF) with a file that needs to be copied in the foobar directory (foo_input_dsdiff.dll)

+ SACD decoder for foobar (SACD component)  install in foobar under “help” the sacd component http://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_input_sacd/

(set 88.2 khz and NOT 176 khz, in the SACD decoder addon configuration.)

The easiest way to convert the SACD ISO to FLAC if using Windows is with Foobar2000 after installing the Super Audio CD Decoder (foo_input_sacd). The SACD decoder settings are not well explained so here are the settings I use:

Output Mode: PCM

PCM Volume: +0 dB (first pass)

PCM Samplerate: 88200

DSD2PCM Mode: Multistage (64fp)

Preferable Area: None, Stereo, Multichannel (I set to none and then select the files to convert separately)

Editable Tags: checked

Store Tags with ISO: checked

Linked 2CH/MCH Tags: checked

Edited Master Playback: checked

DSD Processor: None

After the first conversion to FLAC I analyze the audio files in JRiver to discover the Peak level. SACD's peak levels are typically 3 to 6 dB below the 0 dB clipping level. If the peak for any track in the album is say -4.2 dB I rip again with Foobar with the PCM Volume set to +4 dB.

[Brewie]

Mediainfo

To recognize what is a MCH file or a Stereo file use mediainfo  http://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo

[Brewie]

If FLAC files have the wrong channels, you can switch channels with audacity

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,63269.0.html

 

DSF to FLAC

Foobar Settings for converting from DSF to FLAC:

For „convert“ choose the “…..“ setting.  FLAC level 4. The higher the nr. the higher the compression. Unfortunately Pioneer has some trouble with high compression (more DAC/CPU power required) that’s why to choose level 4.

Foobar preferences: SACD: PCM, no volume adjustments so “0”. Sample rate 88,2 and for DSD2PCM mode use “Multistage floating point” (seems to be the best conversion setting).

 

Or use foobar to directly convert from Iso to Flac 24/88.2

[Brewie]

Foobar settings:

To convert ISO into FLAC 24/88.2, you need to download flac.exe from the flac website (http://downloads.xiph.org/releases/flac/ ) first and put this file into the foobar directory under components.

Select the second half of the files (typically the FLAC MCH files) to convert into flac 24/88.2  If an album has 9 songs, generally tracks 1-9 will be the stereo ones and 10-18 will be the multichannel ones. As far as SACD ISO is concerned, remove the first set of tracks so only the multi-channel remain in foobar, then convert them to FLAC as is.

[Brewie]

Copyright issue, content removed.

[Brewie]

MP3TAG

https://www.mp3tag.de/en/index.html

Mp3tag is a powerful and easy-to-use tool to edit metadata of audio files.

It supports batch tag-editing of ID3v1, ID3v2.3, ID3v2.4, iTunes MP4, WMA, Vorbis Comments and APE Tags for multiple files at once covering a variety of audio formats.

Furthermore, it supports online database lookups from, e.g., Discogs, MusicBrainz or freedb, allowing you to automatically gather proper tags and download cover art for your music library.

You can rename files based on the tag information, replace characters or words in tags and filenames, import/export tag information, create playlists and more.

Main features:

Batch Tag Editing Write ID3v1.1, ID3v2.3, ID3v2.4, MP4, WMA, APEv2 Tags and Vorbis Comments to multiple files at once.

Support for Cover Art Download and add album covers to your files and make your library even more shiny.

Import from Discogs, freedb, MusicBrainz Save typing and import tags from online databases like Discogs, freedb, MusicBrainz, and more.

Replace characters or words Replace strings in tags and filenames (with support for Regular Expressions).

Create Playlists automatically Create and manage playlists automatically while editing.

Rename files from tags Rename files based on the tag information and import tags from filenames.

Export to HTML, RTF, CSV Generate nice reports and lists of your collection based on user-defined templates.

Full Unicode Support User-interface and tagging are fully Unicode compliant.

Besides these main features Mp3tag offers a variety of other functions and features ranging ranging from batch export of embedded album covers, over support for iTunes-specific tags like media type or TV Show settings, to combining multiple actions into groups that can be applied with a single mouse click

[Kal Rubinson]

34 minutes ago, Brewie said:

Copyright issue, content removed.

It is not proper to quote such large chunks of copyright material without proper attribution/reference.  This was taken from my column in Stereophile but the criticism applies to most of your posts in this thread.

[Brewie]

Kal, you are right, but I mentioned that it was copied.  I just thought it would be helpful for newbies to have it all in one place.

I needed quite some time to find all this stuff (by the way not only here on computeraudiophile). Hopefully we will now influence even more people to increase the MCH community :-)

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Please link to the content is so much needs to be read.