Schiit Saga vs Freya

[Abtr]

... My amp can also "Jump" the tone control circuit so I guess that essentially allows it to act as a power amp? ...

Nope, that only bypasses the tone control circuitry.

[zackthedog]

I stumbled on this while researching the Saga-Freya. I have a vintage, solid state integrated amp (Sansui AU-919). Why doesnt it make sense?

I've used tubed headphone amps as "pre" into my amp and its a good way to get a tube buffer into the solid state; it sounds really good, particularly with digital music. If I had the Saga/Freya I could "tube" my digital music and run my turntable into whichever I choose. But the biggest reason I'm considering...I dont have a remote at any point in my chain and having one would be great especially when listening to headphones through my amp (which is better than any dedicated headphone amp I've yet to hear). Bascially my setup is more standard "hifi" than computer based so it makes all the sense in the world to me.

 

Doesn't the Sansui have a power amp input separate from the preamp? Judging by photos it seems to.

[beercanchicken]

Doesn't the Sansui have a power amp input separate from the preamp? Judging by photos it seems to.

 

 

Yeah, you can also slide over a switch to separate or couple the power capacitor.

It's an amp I hope never goes bad..

[crenca]

Question for those with some tube knowledge: Is the Tube still in some way in the circuit when the Saga is in passive mode? Obviously the tube is still powered up (and you don't save tube life by using your Saga in passive mode).

 

I think this might be the case, or I have a bad case of expectation bias because when I swap tubes I swear I can hear the qualities of the whatever tube I have in in passive mode as well....??

[zackthedog]

Question for those with some tube knowledge: Is the Tube still in some way in the circuit when the Saga is in passive mode? Obviously the tube is still powered up (and you don't save tube life by using your Saga in passive mode).

 

I think this might be the case, or I have a bad case of expectation bias because when I swap tubes I swear I can hear the qualities of the whatever tube I have in in passive mode as well....??

 

I once spent a whole evening carefully comparing 12AX7s in the line section an old Scott preamp. I was really torn between which brand sounded better, until I realized that I was actually swapping tubes in the phono stage, which was switched out of the circuit. Which is not to say that all tubes sound the same, or that we *always* imagine differences between components, just that this kind of A-B-ing is unreliable.

 

I don't know the circuit, but assuming the active stages are bypassed in passive mode, I'm afraid you might be imagining things. But perhaps someone else knows the operation of the piece better than I and knows a way in which the sound might be affected.

[crenca]

I once spent a whole evening carefully comparing 12AX7s in the line section an old Scott preamp. I was really torn between which brand sounded better, until I realized that I was actually swapping tubes in the phono stage, which was switched out of the circuit. Which is not to say that all tubes sound the same, or that we *always* imagine differences between components, just that this kind of A-B-ing is unreliable.

 

I don't know the circuit, but assuming the active stages are bypassed in passive mode, I'm afraid you might be imagining things. But perhaps someone else knows the operation of the piece better than I and knows a way in which the sound might be affected.

 

Thanks Zackthedog, I see dead people so I know I have a fertile imagination

 

Later on today, I will pull the tube out of my Saga and see if it makes sound in passive mode (no tube inserted). I *think* that will tell us something about the circuit...maybe...

[Abtr]

Question for those with some tube knowledge: Is the Tube still in some way in the circuit when the Saga is in passive mode? Obviously the tube is still powered up (and you don't save tube life by using your Saga in passive mode).

 

I think this might be the case, or I have a bad case of expectation bias because when I swap tubes I swear I can hear the qualities of the whatever tube I have in in passive mode as well....??

I think you're right. The original Sovtek tube that came with my Saga popped and crackled in both channels and in both active *and* passive mode!

[crenca]

I think you're right. The original Sovtek tube that came with my Saga popped and crackled in both channels and in both active *and* passive mode!

 

yea, I think I am on to something also. Later today when I remove my tube I will let you know if the saga even functions...

[Abtr]

yea, I think I am on to something also. Later today when I remove my tube I will let you know if the saga even functions...

Well, it will function without a tube (in passive mode). But what exactly happens in passive mode with the tube inserted?

[crenca]

Well, it will function without a tube (in passive mode). But what exactly happens in passive mode with the tube inserted?

 

Ah, you have already done this. Seems like we will need someone with real knowledge of the circuit then to answer the question...

[Abtr]

On ‎11‎-‎3‎-‎2017 at 7:07 PM, crenca said:

 

Well, I purchased a pair of GE 6SN7GTA from a seller on ebay for about $60. He claimed they were manufactured in the early 1950's, though I can neither confirm or deny this. The typeface on the boxes certainly look the part .

 

As far as I know, all GE 6SN7GTA tubes are manufactured in the 1950s..

 

On ‎11‎-‎3‎-‎2017 at 7:07 PM, crenca said:

I have had one in my system since yesterday. A bit more bass, particularly below 50hz than the Sophia. I am trying to decide if what I am hearing is simply "more", or if it is also a looser and less well defined. At this point I think it is a bit of both. A well recorded double bass sounds good, but just a bit too full and bloomy. I think the Sophia's bass might be the more accurate of the two. The mids sound pretty much the same to me, excepting a bit of coloration on certain recording/voices that the GE has. Can't seem to pin this down, except to say at this point it is just different - sometimes I prefer the Sophia and sometimes I prefer the GE. The treble is also very similar and well extended, but here I can say that I hear just a bit more sibilance sometimes out of the GE.

 

Overall, at this point I would say that the Sophia is probably the more even and "accurate" of the two tubes, but that on certain recordings the GE seems to bring out a bit of something extra that sounds nice. Given the price differential ($30 vs $100), the GE is in fact the better deal...

 

So far, in my system,  my NOS GE tube really sounds much better than my recently acquired Grade A  Sophia 6SN7 valve. The bass of the GE  is more defined and deeper and more balanced than the Sophia's. Voices and instruments sound effortlessly clear and treble is extended and detailed without a hint of sharpness or sibilance. I'll give the Sophia more time, but I can't imagine it will get even close to the GE..
 

[crenca]

16 hours ago, Abtr said:

 

As far as I know, all GE 6SN7GTA tubes are manufactured in the 1950s..

 

 

So far, in my system,  my NOS GE tube really sounds much better than my recently acquired Grade A  Sophia 6SN7 valve. The bass of the GE  is more defined and deeper and more balanced than the Sophia's. Voices and instruments sound effortlessly clear and treble is extended and detailed without a hint of sharpness or sibilance. I'll give the Sophia more time, but I can't imagine it will get even close to the GE..
 

Interesting.  I wonder how much of the difference is the rest of our systems (speakers, DACs, etc.), how much personal preference, etc.  But I really wonder how much difference is based on sample differences between tubes, which based on everything I read appear to have quite a bit of varibility between them even when they are manufactured right next to each other on the same day.

 

I have never popped in my second GE GTA, I will do that and see if I can hear any difference between it and the one I have been using...

[Abtr]

3 hours ago, crenca said:

Interesting.  I wonder how much of the difference is the rest of our systems (speakers, DACs, etc.), how much personal preference, etc.  But I really wonder how much difference is based on sample differences between tubes, which based on everything I read appear to have quite a bit of varibility between them even when they are manufactured right next to each other on the same day.

 

I have never popped in my second GE GTA, I will do that and see if I can hear any difference between it and the one I have been using...

 

I also have 2 GE GTA tubes, as well as 3 GTBs. All sound different and I currently prefer a NOS GE GTA. And all sound better than the Sophia. I think even my Shuguang Treasure and Psvane valves sound better than the Sophia. Maybe something's wrong with the Sophia valve I received..

 

My current) system: USB CA source (PC, Mac) > Intona high speed USB isolator (with Aqvox 5V USB LPS) > Schiit Modi2 multibit USB DAC > Schiit Saga preamp (with GE 6SN7GTA tube) > Wyred4Sound ST500 MKII stereo power amp (feeding KEF LS50s) + active Sunfire HRS12 subwoofer (filtered at ~70Hz). Cables: AQ Cinnamon USB + AQ Big sur RCA + standard power cables. All audio gear is disconnected from AC mains ground (!). 

[mrvco]

Has anyone here tried the Freya yet?

[dtb300]

2 hours ago, mrvco said:

Has anyone here tried the Freya yet?

Yep - very very nice Pre Amp.   It replaced a well known company Pre ($3k-6k range) in my rig.   Only need to go Freya if running balanced, otherwise stick with the Saga and save on tube cost.

 

Needs some different tubes from the stock 6H8C IMO - I am running 50's RCA's.

[firedog]

2 hours ago, dtb300 said:

Yep - very very nice Pre Amp.   It replaced a well known company Pre ($3k-6k range) in my rig.   Only need to go Freya if running balanced, otherwise stick with the Saga and save on tube cost.

 

Needs some different tubes from the stock 6H8C IMO - I am running 50's RCA's.

Can't say I agree. My favorite mode on the Freya is the active JFET mode. 

[dtb300]

Just now, firedog said:

Can't say I agree. My favorite mode on the Freya is the active JFET mode. 

JFET for me just does not have the dynamics the tube stage has.

 

This is what makes these Pre's so great - You have Passive, JFET, or Tube output mode.  Find one that fits your needs, configurations (passive and long IC's do not mix well) and sonic preferences.

[Abtr]

7 hours ago, dtb300 said:

Yep - very very nice Pre Amp.   It replaced a well known company Pre ($3k-6k range) in my rig.   Only need to go Freya if running balanced, otherwise stick with the Saga and save on tube cost.

 

Needs some different tubes from the stock 6H8C IMO - I am running 50's RCA's.

 

Which 1950s RCA tubes do you use (6SN7, 5692, GA, GTA, GTB,  red-base, black-base, side getter, bottom getter)? Do you run 4 of them in the  Freya? How do they compare to the stock (or other) tubes, and to the passive and JFET mode? Thanks.

[dtb300]

GTB Black Base, Bottom Getter - matched Quad

 

Passive - could not drive my long IC's

JEFT - very nice sounding - could run this mode if I had to

Tube (RCA) - Musically an overall better choice

 

Stock Tubes - Nice, quiet, very good sound stage, but lacked the musicality of the RCA.   Could be happy with stock if I had too.

 

Careful with all the tube rolling, as it is the crack of audio  LOL You can get sucked into the vortex of minuscules and never get out.  Just sit back and enjoy at times.

[Abtr]

59 minutes ago, dtb300 said:

GTB Black Base, Bottom Getter - matched Quad

 

Passive - could not drive my long IC's

JEFT - very nice sounding - could run this mode if I had to

Tube (RCA) - Musically an overall better choice

 

Stock Tubes - Nice, quiet, very good sound stage, but lacked the musicality of the RCA.   Could be happy with stock if I had too.

 

Careful with all the tube rolling, as it is the crack of audio  LOL You can get sucked into the vortex of minuscules and never get out.  Just sit back and enjoy at times.

 

Ha, well at least tube rolling is somewhat affordable with the Saga. I may try a 1950s RCA 6SN7GTB. Thanks! Usually I listen to changes in my system for a week or so and then switch back. Works quite  well for deciding what's better/preferred.  And that way I can also "sit back and enjoy" most of the time.  
 

[crenca]

On 3/22/2017 at 11:45 AM, Abtr said:

 

I also have 2 GE GTA tubes, as well as 3 GTBs. All sound different and I currently prefer a NOS GE GTA. And all sound better than the Sophia. I think even my Shuguang Treasure and Psvane valves sound better than the Sophia. Maybe something's wrong with the Sophia valve I received..

 

My current) system: USB CA source (PC, Mac) > Intona high speed USB isolator (with Aqvox 5V USB LPS) > Schiit Modi2 multibit USB DAC > Schiit Saga preamp (with GE 6SN7GTA tube) > Wyred4Sound ST500 MKII stereo power amp (feeding KEF LS50s) + active Sunfire HRS12 subwoofer (filtered at ~70Hz). Cables: AQ Cinnamon USB + AQ Big sur RCA + standard power cables. All audio gear is disconnected from AC mains ground (!). 

 

Ya, maybe it is your sample??  I just popped in my Sophia and as in my original review I can only hear very subtle differences between it and my GE GTA.  I also tried running the Saga with no tube in passive mode to get a baseline, and it reminded me just how much the sound is determined by the rest of the Saga - in other words both my Sophia and GTA and the Saga in passive mode all sound much more alike than different.  Not sure what this means - other than what we already know in that my speakers, room, and ears count more than anything else...

[Abtr]

4 hours ago, crenca said:

Ya, maybe it is your sample??  I just popped in my Sophia and as in my original review I can only hear very subtle differences between it and my GE GTA.  I also tried running the Saga with no tube in passive mode to get a baseline, and it reminded me just how much the sound is determined by the rest of the Saga - in other words both my Sophia and GTA and the Saga in passive mode all sound much more alike than different.  Not sure what this means - other than what we already know in that my speakers, room, and ears count more than anything else...

 

After ~30 hours there's nothing I dislike about the Sophia and it may have improved, but there's also nothing I particularly like about it. In my system, the GE GTA sounds more real and refined and more engaging and I would say more accurate than the Sophia. And I hear a relatively large difference in dynamics and bass and overall 'realism' between the Saga's passive mode and general active/tube mode. The high output impedance of the passive mode (max several K Ohms) may not work well in my setup.  My (Dave Slagle) autoformers sound better than the Saga's passive mode. Hmm..  

[crenca]

On 3/27/2017 at 2:29 PM, Abtr said:

 

After ~30 hours there's nothing I dislike about the Sophia and it may have improved, but there's also nothing I particularly like about it. In my system, the GE GTA sounds more real and refined and more engaging and I would say more accurate than the Sophia. And I hear a relatively large difference in dynamics and bass and overall 'realism' between the Saga's passive mode and general active/tube mode. The high output impedance of the passive mode (max several K Ohms) may not work well in my setup.  My (Dave Slagle) autoformers sound better than the Saga's passive mode. Hmm..  

 

Well Abtr, after going back and forth between the GE GTA I have been using (have yet to try my other one yet) and my Sophia I am starting to come around to your position.  I do believe I hear a bit more "real" and "refined" with the GE now.  I do think the GTA is just a tad too "bloomy" down below 50 hz or so but the rest of the sound has a hard to pin something "extra" over the Sophia - the word is not a "veil" (on the Sophia) but something else hard to describe.  I find myself wanting to leave the GE in...

 

Also, the specs on the Schiit site simply state "Output Impedance: 180 ohms" - did you measure a difference when in passive mode?

[Abtr]

19 hours ago, crenca said:

 

Well Abtr, after going back and forth between the GE GTA I have been using (have yet to try my other one yet) and my Sophia I am starting to come around to your position.  I do believe I hear a bit more "real" and "refined" with the GE now.  I do think the GTA is just a tad too "bloomy" down below 50 hz or so but the rest of the sound has a hard to pin something "extra" over the Sophia - the word is not a "veil" (on the Sophia) but something else hard to describe.  I find myself wanting to leave the GE in...

 

Yes, in the Saga the GE GTA is a great tube. I also think the bass of the GE is better defined than the Sophia's. I wouldn't call it "bloomy". I would call the bass of the Sophia a bit "bloated"..

 

19 hours ago, crenca said:

Also, the specs on the Schiit site simply state "Output Impedance: 180 ohms" - did you measure a difference when in passive mode?

 

The 6SN7 tube of the Saga lowers output impedance and raises input impedance relative to passive mode, thus improving impedance matching between source, preamp and amp. Only active z-out is specified (180 Ohms, tube dependent). Passive z-out will be higher.  A z-out of 600 Ohms to several K Ohms is typical for most passive attenuators and it may vary with different volume settings. I don't know the values.

[Abtr]

By the way, I'm currently using a 1950s RCA 6SN7GTA (dual side getters) in the Saga, and in my system it sounds better than the GE GTA in every aspect.