Ncore1 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 I am not trying to silence the discussion. I appreciate that you pointed to troubles with measurements here done and that you brought your own measurements. That's fine. But you see others have different view to value of listening comparisons. If discussion will continue to be only about listening vs. measurements, then you hijacked this thread. IMO better when you start your own thread about relation of listening and measurements. That may lead to never ending discussion. Don't expect any common agreement. I am interested in this thread and I wish it to be continued on topic. Bogi its entirely on topic. As I asked do you have any relevant comment upon the issues I have raised with the test, or are you going to keep on hijacking the thread with your whinging? Link to comment
DM Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 As many were interested in the test setup, here it is. Test Setup Tests were done with the devices attached to a Desktop PC USB Port, loaded with the stated current, while the USB soundcard (EMU 0404 USB) was attached to Laptop running from battery to avoid adding groundloops etc. Inputs used are BAL (reference level @1V) and all devices were measured in exactly the same setup. All USB gadgets were tested under load, if possible at rated load. If not possible, at maximum load where the voltage is still within USB specifications (e.g. Intona were tested at 200mA load). Control Test What I forgot to post before was a control test that was done with a 10ohm resistor in place of the USB gadgets , here is the result of the control test: 1. The control test looked exactly like the ones we got from Regen/iUSB3.0 etc. that’s why we concluded that the noise on those power supplies were lower than the EMY 0404’s self-noise. 2. Intona was test under the exactly the same setup. Additional Notes from my EE friend (Inside of the Intona and Regen): “Intona uses ADP125 Regulator, Regen uses TPS7A4700. Respectively they have 65uV and 4uV rated noise. The ADP125 also has > 20dB (10X) less rejection of power supply noise than the TPS7A4700. So under load (as tested) this may very well translate into 46dB (~ 200X) more noise than the Regen, which is more or less what we see in the test results.” Digital Sources: Optimised HP TouchSmart PC/CEC TL-1X CD Player/AMR DP-777 DAC/Theta Digital DS Pro Basic II (old) Analogue Sources:Koetsu Jade Platinum MC Cartridge/Tri-Planar arm/Kuzma Stabi Reference turntable/AMR PH-77 Phono Stage Amplifiers:The Gryphon Elektra Preamplifier/Convergent Audio Technology JL2 Signature Mk 2 Stereo Amplifier Speakers:Kharma Grand Ceramique Midi[br]Cables:Nordost Valhalla (interconnect and speaker cables)/Shunyata Research power Snakes power cables Portable: Sony PHA-1/PHA-2; Dragonfly 1.0/1.2; Meridian Explorer, Director; iFi nano iDSD, micro iDAC, micro iDSD; Geek Out; Hdta Serenade DSD Link to comment
Ncore1 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 That certainly wouldn't be a proper way of making measurements. I find the so-called conclusions in this thread about the 'variability' of the Intona to be very dodgy. Not to mention several classes of devices which do very different things are somehow lumped together in the same basket. This is one pretty good USB port from a PC:) What’s the Sony Laptop model Number, Load, Test equipment did you do your test under, we want to see if we can replicate these results. Not at home at the moment so I will update you with the precise laptop detail later. ADC is a Ti pcm4222 evm. Using Arta software. The recording pc is an intel skull canyon. I will swap the roles over and measure the intel later. Unfortunately I recently sold my regen it would have been good to measure that. This was unloaded, I will perform various loaded tests later. Link to comment
DM Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 Its not so much insulation, but protection against voltage peaks. On the contrary, the low 5V can easily be snotted by a larger voltage, for example a complete meltdown between AC power and the computer. 5V becomes 120V, even higher if there's an arc with sufficient energy. That's why the Intona protects to the levels that they do, to safeguard the connected load, without damage. That's before we get into a discussion of mains borne spikes, which I have seen in a 240V system reaching 1300V with malfunctioning equipment. The little wall wart from ifi could never withstand this level without shooting through to the load. That's a really good joke, I am sure you are joking with us If our listening environment is constantly attacked by hundreds volts of lethal voltages, we have complete melt down of computers day in day out, electricity arcing all over the places and we need industrial grade insulation device to protect us …. I won't be in any mood of enjoying music, I will be running for my life instead! Digital Sources: Optimised HP TouchSmart PC/CEC TL-1X CD Player/AMR DP-777 DAC/Theta Digital DS Pro Basic II (old) Analogue Sources:Koetsu Jade Platinum MC Cartridge/Tri-Planar arm/Kuzma Stabi Reference turntable/AMR PH-77 Phono Stage Amplifiers:The Gryphon Elektra Preamplifier/Convergent Audio Technology JL2 Signature Mk 2 Stereo Amplifier Speakers:Kharma Grand Ceramique Midi[br]Cables:Nordost Valhalla (interconnect and speaker cables)/Shunyata Research power Snakes power cables Portable: Sony PHA-1/PHA-2; Dragonfly 1.0/1.2; Meridian Explorer, Director; iFi nano iDSD, micro iDAC, micro iDSD; Geek Out; Hdta Serenade DSD Link to comment
Ncore1 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 That certainly wouldn't be a proper way of making measurements. I find the so-called conclusions in this thread about the 'variability' of the Intona to be very dodgy. Not to mention several classes of devices which do very different things are somehow lumped together in the same basket. As many were interested in the test setup, here it is. Test Setup Tests were done with the devices attached to a Desktop PC USB Port, loaded with the stated current, while the USB soundcard (EMU 0404 USB) was attached to Laptop running from battery to avoid adding groundloops etc. Inputs used are BAL (reference level @1V) and all devices were measured in exactly the same setup. All USB gadgets were tested under load, if possible at rated load. If not possible, at maximum load where the voltage is still within USB specifications (e.g. Intona were tested at 200mA load). Control Test What I forgot to post before was a control test that was done with a 10ohm resistor in place of the USB gadgets , here is the result of the control test: [ATTACH=CONFIG]32670[/ATTACH] 1. The control test looked exactly like the ones we got from Regen/iUSB3.0 etc. that’s why we concluded that the noise on those power supplies were lower than the EMY 0404’s self-noise. 2. Intona was test under the exactly the same setup. Additional Notes from my EE friend (Inside of the Intona and Regen): [ATTACH=CONFIG]32671[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]32672[/ATTACH] “Intona uses ADP125 Regulator, Regen uses TPS7A4700. Respectively they have 65uV and 4uV rated noise. The ADP125 also has > 20dB (10X) less rejection of power supply noise than the TPS7A4700. So under load (as tested) this may very well translate into 46dB (~ 200X) more noise than the Regen, which is more or less what we see in the test results.” There are quite a lot of spuria in the control that appeAR in the rest of the results. Whilst the noise specs of the devices are interesting the real world testing is more useful than speculation. All I can say is that my results do correlate very well with the manufacturers. If you spend some time reading the information on the intona website you will quickly realise that they genuinely are very technically competent, have very good test and measurement kit and test validate and publish the results. Not many do that. Link to comment
Ncore1 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Laptop is a Sony SVP112A1CW Link to comment
Ncore1 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Rummaging through my bin of parts I only have a 16ohm resistor of sufficient power rating to not release its magic smoke. So that's about 312 mA. Plot below is Intona unloaded and loaded. Voltage measured on a Fluke 179 DVM was 4.849v. No load was 4.997v Just for info I measured the current consumption of my Meridian Explorer2 and that came to 150 mA. It would be interesting to compile a set of information about different USB DACS. EDIT Just dug out what Intona say about the PSU. I'm not testing it into its non linear region, so I need to get some more resistors! Obviously the unit has a current consumption of its own, so if you connect it to a USB port with a limit of 500mA, any available output current is going to be reduced. http://intona.eu/en/answer/popular Link to comment
DM Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 Pioneer get this new Bonnes Notes and iFi got this new iSilencer, this place is getting crowded will try to get my hands on those and test. For now, who has some internal photos of them? Digital Sources: Optimised HP TouchSmart PC/CEC TL-1X CD Player/AMR DP-777 DAC/Theta Digital DS Pro Basic II (old) Analogue Sources:Koetsu Jade Platinum MC Cartridge/Tri-Planar arm/Kuzma Stabi Reference turntable/AMR PH-77 Phono Stage Amplifiers:The Gryphon Elektra Preamplifier/Convergent Audio Technology JL2 Signature Mk 2 Stereo Amplifier Speakers:Kharma Grand Ceramique Midi[br]Cables:Nordost Valhalla (interconnect and speaker cables)/Shunyata Research power Snakes power cables Portable: Sony PHA-1/PHA-2; Dragonfly 1.0/1.2; Meridian Explorer, Director; iFi nano iDSD, micro iDAC, micro iDSD; Geek Out; Hdta Serenade DSD Link to comment
Ncore1 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Intel Skull Canyon i7 NUC usb Noise Generic el cheapo USB3 hub attached to skull canyon Link to comment
ElviaCaprice Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Obviously the unit has a current consumption of its own, so if you connect it to a USB port with a limit of 500mA, any available output current is going to be reduced. Intona – Frequently Asked Questions & Answers Thanks Ncore1 for your technical clarifications of the Intona. I find if using the Intona, it should be attached as close as possible to the powering usb port, preferable an audiophile usb card with clean power. Also if using an Intona I think having a second USB device such as a RUR or Regen works well near the DAC. Makes it possible then to eliminate the 5Vbus between Intona and other device. (JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14) (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer) Link to comment
Ncore1 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Thanks Ncore1 for your technical clarifications of the Intona. I find if using the Intona, it should be attached as close as possible to the powering usb port, preferable an audiophile usb card with clean power. Also if using an Intona I think having a second USB device such as a RUR or Regen works well near the DAC. Makes it possible then to eliminate the 5Vbus between Intona and other device. Well I would say that the intonas PSU is quiet, but has limitations which Intona describe on their website. I would have to test it at higher currents to see if any issues develop, but clearly up to the 300mA that I tested it is fine. A current hungry DAC might cause a problem. The Meridian explorer I measured was only 150 mA. The next question to ask is what, if any of the USB noise makes it onto the DAC output. The other thing to note is that these tests are not performed using real loads. I will try and hook up the dac also and see what appears on the supply. Link to comment
One and a half Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Thanks Ncore1 for your technical clarifications of the Intona. I find if using the Intona, it should be attached as close as possible to the powering usb port, preferable an audiophile usb card with clean power. Also if using an Intona I think having a second USB device such as a RUR or Regen works well near the DAC. Makes it possible then to eliminate the 5Vbus between Intona and other device. Agreed on placing the Intona as close to the source. As for the Intona's output, here's the difficulty and is system dependent. If the preference is for a Regen or RUR, then because of the standard power supply alone, the Regen or RUR should be ahead of the Intona, to provide some signal integrity which the Intona is not that great at. If the Regen or RUR is placed on the output of the Intona, then at least a mandatory LPS or better LPS-1 to isolate the psu's noise from adding to the DAC. In my case, I tried a few combos with the RUR (no purchased Regen and supplied PSU) and found the upstream RUR to be of benefit. However due to handshaking issues with DDC, the Intona was discarded, and left the RUR before the DDC for a while. The RUR didn't make that much of an improvement after all, and it's also out, so the USB cable is direct to the DDC. There's now a 25m AES3 cable and another DDC to bring that level to S/PDIF to the DAC and all is good. If you have the distance, keep the computer, DDC, or other fixers away from the DAC as far as possible, but the trick is to maintain the same AC supply, otherwise ground potential differences cause other drama. The more USB fixers that rely on a power the supply, the more complex the signal chain, and more problems to solve. AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
ElviaCaprice Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 I will agree about maintaining a galvanic isolated PSU on all devices after the Intona. But will disagree about the Regen being away from the DAC. Best to keep that USB run as short as possible to DAC for best impedance which the Regen corrected. (JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14) (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer) Link to comment
Ncore1 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Agreed on placing the Intona as close to the source. As for the Intona's output, here's the difficulty and is system dependent. If the preference is for a Regen or RUR, then because of the standard power supply alone, the Regen or RUR should be ahead of the Intona, to provide some signal integrity which the Intona is not that great at. If the Regen or RUR is placed on the output of the Intona, then at least a mandatory LPS or better LPS-1 to isolate the psu's noise from adding to the DAC. In my case, I tried a few combos with the RUR (no purchased Regen and supplied PSU) and found the upstream RUR to be of benefit. However due to handshaking issues with DDC, the Intona was discarded, and left the RUR before the DDC for a while. The RUR didn't make that much of an improvement after all, and it's also out, so the USB cable is direct to the DDC. There's now a 25m AES3 cable and another DDC to bring that level to S/PDIF to the DAC and all is good. If you have the distance, keep the computer, DDC, or other fixers away from the DAC as far as possible, but the trick is to maintain the same AC supply, otherwise ground potential differences cause other drama. The more USB fixers that rely on a power the supply, the more complex the signal chain, and more problems to solve. Where did you get that the intona has poor signal integrity? See eye pattern below. It is true that they had some compatibility issues which appear to be mostly fixed. I went to edit my previous response but it had timed out. If the intona is working within its 5v capability, its quiet. No need for additional supplies. Not to mention of course, depending on how they are configured, could easily cause problems which the intona solved. So you are absolutely right with your comments there. BTW the regen has a God awful SMPS which spews out RF. Must go linear with that one. Plus has the potential to cause problems (noise) with its ground lift resistor. It would be an interesting exercise to contact all the manufacturers in this test to see if they can provide the same test data and USB compliance test data for their products. Link to comment
DM Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 On a Chinese site, they are starting a review and tests of the power supplies (not USB gadgets) using Audio Precision: http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_1323b8cac0102wtkz.html Be warned, all in Chinese. If the review turned out to be valuable or informative (currently only 1st part posted), I will try to find some time to translate some of the content Digital Sources: Optimised HP TouchSmart PC/CEC TL-1X CD Player/AMR DP-777 DAC/Theta Digital DS Pro Basic II (old) Analogue Sources:Koetsu Jade Platinum MC Cartridge/Tri-Planar arm/Kuzma Stabi Reference turntable/AMR PH-77 Phono Stage Amplifiers:The Gryphon Elektra Preamplifier/Convergent Audio Technology JL2 Signature Mk 2 Stereo Amplifier Speakers:Kharma Grand Ceramique Midi[br]Cables:Nordost Valhalla (interconnect and speaker cables)/Shunyata Research power Snakes power cables Portable: Sony PHA-1/PHA-2; Dragonfly 1.0/1.2; Meridian Explorer, Director; iFi nano iDSD, micro iDAC, micro iDSD; Geek Out; Hdta Serenade DSD Link to comment
Ncore1 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Deleted The PCM422EVM is brilliant. Best bit is it only $150. Buy direct from TI. PCM4222 Evaluation Module (EVM) - PCM4222EVM - TI Tool Folder Link to comment
One and a half Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Where did you get that the intona has poor signal integrity? See eye pattern below. It is true that they had some compatibility issues which appear to be mostly fixed. Intona Signal integrity. AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
Ncore1 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Intona Signal integrity. ....mmmmmmm, sorry if I don't take Johns input too seriously. He has his product to promote. Intonas signal integrity is tested and results shown. Its good. I suggest you ask John to provide the same data for the regen and, far more importantly, demonstrate how his improved signal integrity actually helps. You should always bear in mind that at the end of the day the DAC output is the important thing. Things like slightly sharper rise times may not be helpful, could even increase current flows and noise. Link to comment
Ncore1 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 ....mmmmmmm, sorry if I don't take Johns input too seriously. He has his product to promote. Intonas signal integrity is tested and results shown. Its good. IIRC the waveform shown above is actually a far end measurement. Jitter is good at 12ps. I suggest you ask John to provide the same data for the regen and, far more importantly, demonstrate (not theorise) how his improved signal integrity actually helps. You should always bear in mind that at the end of the day the DAC output is the important thing. Things like slightly sharper rise times may not be helpful, could even increase current flows and noise. Link to comment
DM Posted January 22, 2017 Author Share Posted January 22, 2017 [ATTACH]32615[/ATTACH] @Middy, you are not that crazy really with your train-wreck, saw this from Japan Ajay sk 1 Digital Sources: Optimised HP TouchSmart PC/CEC TL-1X CD Player/AMR DP-777 DAC/Theta Digital DS Pro Basic II (old) Analogue Sources:Koetsu Jade Platinum MC Cartridge/Tri-Planar arm/Kuzma Stabi Reference turntable/AMR PH-77 Phono Stage Amplifiers:The Gryphon Elektra Preamplifier/Convergent Audio Technology JL2 Signature Mk 2 Stereo Amplifier Speakers:Kharma Grand Ceramique Midi[br]Cables:Nordost Valhalla (interconnect and speaker cables)/Shunyata Research power Snakes power cables Portable: Sony PHA-1/PHA-2; Dragonfly 1.0/1.2; Meridian Explorer, Director; iFi nano iDSD, micro iDAC, micro iDSD; Geek Out; Hdta Serenade DSD Link to comment
Middy Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 WTF? I got the silencer for fun. That's Doctor Evil IFI style Japanese hardcore. That guy has a hollowed out volcano... . I want 100 trillion i Silencer's or my death ray will kill all subjective cable testing..Muhahaha Errrm. .. what did he say it did by the way????? Sent from my SM-G900F using Computer Audiophile mobile app Link to comment
bcwang Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 Just for info I measured the current consumption of my Meridian Explorer2 and that came to 150 mA. It would be interesting to compile a set of information about different USB DACS. Not related to this thread but since you mentioned this.....Are you sure that's the explorer 2 you measured? My explorer 2 measures around 230ma while the explorer 1 measures 150 while playing back 44.1khz music. Link to comment
Le Concombre Masqué Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 euh... I can't afford it at the moment, so no first hand report, but I was under the impression that the micro rendu changed the paradigm : usb link reduced to a hard adaptor while whatever distance is run ethernet... at least the test should belong here Link to comment
sima66 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I could not get my Sonicweld working with longer usb cable (JCAT usb cable) between the Sonicweld and Intona (JCAT Isolator). In the end I DIY one usb cable just a couple inches long and finally works, but it works ONLY if I have the Ipurifier2 into my Sonicweld!!! Link to comment
ElviaCaprice Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 euh... I can't afford it at the moment, so no first hand report, but I was under the impression that the micro rendu changed the paradigm : usb link reduced to a hard adaptor while whatever distance is run ethernet... at least the test should belong here Actually, that's not true. Some folks are finding better SQ with added USB devices downstream of the mRendu. (JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14) (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer) Link to comment
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