Headphones vs Speakers -- I'm MAD

[dalethorn]

3 minutes ago, STC said:

 

I think that is not entirely correct. Headphones appears to be giving higher resolution because you only hear the sound from the headphone speakers minus external noise. It is like someone speaking from 2 meters away and one inch away from you. His voice resolution is the same but what reaches your ears depends so much on the external noise and loudness level.

It's not that simple.  Another factor for headphones is much smaller drivers with far less excursion, which means less smear.  It's an obvious difference.

[STC]

4 minutes ago, dalethorn said:

It's not that simple.  Another factor for headphones is much smaller drivers with far less excursion, which means less smear.  It's an obvious difference.

If what you are saying is correct than all earphones should sound better than headphones.

 

https://www.audiophileon.com/news/20-best-audiophile-headphones I believe drives here are generally bigger than the earphones'.

[dalethorn]

11 hours ago, stuck_limo said:

I think 12,000 could build you a great component system, especially if you purchased used. For 2,000 you could also have a great headphone system. It depends on your definition of "great" I guess. 

For headphones, you could get a player for FLAC or other files with digital output, add a DragonFly Red, and a $700 headphone for a total of $1300, and it would be excellent if you made the best headphone choice.  To realize the deep bass detail and impact down to ~30 hz or so with speakers, like you get with the better headphones (and without serious room resonances), will take some serious work, and a large enough room with solid walls and no large openings.

[dalethorn]

4 minutes ago, STC said:

If what you are saying is correct than all earphones should sound better than headphones.

 

https://www.audiophileon.com/news/20-best-audiophile-headphones I believe drives here are generally bigger than the earphones'.

The best IEMs may have better detail than full size headphones, but if the IEMs have multiple drivers, they may smear the sound somewhat.

[Ralph Glasgal]

In addition to the proximity effect noted above by STC, there is a major difference between the frequency response of headphones and two speakers at sixty degrees.  Most head phones are reasonably flat in the regions that count most.  In contrast, because of stereo crosstalk, the 30 degree angle, and the bass doubling, the response just at the ear is far from flat even if the speaker is perfect.  With speakers you introduce a head shadow, that causes peaks and dips in the response as the signals from the speakers add and subtract.  The fixed 30 degree angle for sound hitting the ear confuses the pinna.  The low bass level is double if the bass is centered since both speakers reach both ears compared to bass in just one speaker and so on.  No two heads have the same delay between the ears or the same pinna shapes.  So it is not logical to compare loudspeaker reproduction to earphone playback as is done in the postings above since such a comparison has to be completely subjective and individual.

[afrancois]

On 1/16/2017 at 8:11 PM, GUTB said:

When I was trying the HD600, I admit it wasn't with the best gear in the world. But, in spite of its mid-fi technical merits I found myself extremely bored of them, to the point that I didn't feel like putting them to listen to my favorite music. When I picked up the TH900, and using the same gear, the difference was virtually night-and-day. Not only was a thick veil lifted, excitement with my favorite music was rekindled instantly. Direct comparisons between a mid-fi product like the HD600 and a hi-fi product like the TH900 isn't completely fair, but regardless of price point and technical capability, no headphones should kill my enjoyment of music.

I feel like we are sometimes too quick to blame the speakers or headphones when it doesn't sound like we would like. The gear in front is equally important. In case of the HD600 you really need a powerful headphone amplifier. That's the reason why I choose an amplifier (Violectric HPA V200) that costs almost 3 times the price of the headphone. The HD600 sounds very good. It is very neutral and for me this is HiFi and not mid-Fi. 

[Blake]

I owned the HD-600 and thought they were "good"-  better than the HE-400 which gave me serious headaches if I listened for more than 10 minutes.

 

However, after an initial period where I thought they were good, like GUTB, I eventually came to the conclusion that the HD-600 was somewhat uninspiring/boring (veiled) and as I result they spent a lot of time in the closet.  As time passed, I just could not get excited about listening to them anymore.

 

I much preferred my other cans: T1, T90, TH900, HD800, W3000ANV, Dharma, but all these headphones are way more expensive than the HD-600 (except for the T90)..  Headphones are very personal from listener to listener, due to physical differences in our ears, our hearing sensitivities, experience, etc. so I don't take any offense when others may disagree with my findings in headphones.   

 

In the HD-600 price range, I think my Meze 99 Classics are the king of the hill.  I am always excited to listen to them and my enthusiasm for the 99 Classics has never dimmed.  So much fun....

 

Of course, others may hear things differently, and that is fine.

[dalethorn]

17 minutes ago, Blake said:

I owned the HD-600 and thought they were "good"-  better than the HE-400 which gave me serious headaches if I listened for more than 10 minutes.

 

However, after an initial period where I thought they were good, like GUTB, I eventually came to the conclusion that the HD-600 was somewhat uninspiring/boring (veiled) and as I result they spent a lot of time in the closet.  As time passed, I just could not get excited about listening to them anymore.

 

I much preferred my other cans: T1, T90, TH900, HD800, W3000ANV, Dharma, but all these headphones are way more expensive than the HD-600 (except for the T90)..  Headphones are very personal from listener to listener, due to physical differences in our ears, our hearing sensitivities, experience, etc. so I don't take any offense when others may disagree with my findings in headphones.   

 

In the HD-600 price range, I think my Meze 99 Classics are the king of the hill.  I am always excited to listen to them and my enthusiasm for the 99 Classics has never dimmed.  So much fun....

 

Of course, others may hear things differently, and that is fine.

It helps, in the hi-fi sense, to clarify whether we are just preferring a particular sound, or trying to achieve a more natural sound like live music.  And then of course, it gets to the source music itself and how it was recorded.

[Blake]

5 minutes ago, dalethorn said:

It helps, in the hi-fi sense, to clarify whether we are just preferring a particular sound, or trying to achieve a more natural sound like live music.  And then of course, it gets to the source music itself and how it was recorded.

 

Sure, on a theoretical level.  My preference is for sound that I subjectively perceive to be accurate and life like, creating the illusion that I am in the room with the musicians.

 

Of course, neither you nor I will ever know if our perceptions are indeed accurate.

[dalethorn]

6 hours ago, Blake said:

 

Of course, neither you nor I will ever know if our perceptions are indeed accurate.

Disagree.  I compare my music to live music and other live sounds.  Most headphones have enough variance in their response that it doesn't take long to eliminate most contenders, to come up with a few that sound like real music.  My point is that a lot of people get discouraged in their searches for natural sound, and they needn't be discouraged, if they have the patience to keep looking and listening.

[Ralph Glasgal]

20 hours ago, Blake said:

My preference is for sound that I subjectively perceive to be accurate and life like, creating the illusion that I am in the room with the musicians.

 

Right On! Almost.  That is called "They Are Here" reproduction and in theory is only possible for say a single instrument like a guitar preferably coming from a single speaker in a good room.  For a large ensemble like an orchestra this is not possible.  For most music and movies you need "You Are There" home reproduction and this is something that requires a bit more technical savvy than you need for just playing 2.0 files of a solo vocalist and a guitar.  Google Ambiophonics, Wavefield Synthesis, Ambisonics, BACCH, XTC, etc.

[TubeLover]

It's been six months now. All I want to know is if the OP is still mad?

 

JC

[wgscott]

His troll-posts abruptly ended on June 8th.

[STC]

On 5/7/2017 at 11:27 AM, STC said:

LOng story short- after playing with many features there I finally settled for stereo over wide stereo because despite the wide soundstage, I perceived a hole in the middle. At that time, I have no idea how stereo works or even heard about HiFi mags

 

I was referring to wide stereo vs stereo. 

[sdolezalek]

On 6/2/2017 at 7:50 AM, Ralph Glasgal said:

In addition to the proximity effect noted above by STC, there is a major difference between the frequency response of headphones and two speakers at sixty degrees.  Most head phones are reasonably flat in the regions that count most.  In contrast, because of stereo crosstalk, the 30 degree angle, and the bass doubling, the response just at the ear is far from flat even if the speaker is perfect.  With speakers you introduce a head shadow, that causes peaks and dips in the response as the signals from the speakers add and subtract.  The fixed 30 degree angle for sound hitting the ear confuses the pinna.  The low bass level is double if the bass is centered since both speakers reach both ears compared to bass in just one speaker and so on.  No two heads have the same delay between the ears or the same pinna shapes.  So it is not logical to compare loudspeaker reproduction to earphone playback as is done in the postings above since such a comparison has to be completely subjective and individual.

 

Interesting.  I wonder whether these effects cause each of us to prefer one of a) headphones, b) direct radiating box speakers, or c) bi-polar radiating panels based in part on familiarity and in part on room effects or the lack thereof.  Even though I may enjoy the level of precision and clarity headphones bring, they do not sound like "being there" to me (note: I have not heard the Smyth Realizer and it might cause me to revise that statement); but I also prefer the sound of my planars and the way they react with the room over a set of box speakers with the same frequency range.  For many of us, what we prefer may simply be a case of what we are most used to rather than based on any live reference point.  As such the original OP may have been MAD because he was trying to get a set of speakers that sounded just like his headphones-- something much easier to just do with headphones...

[pkane2001]

On 7/13/2017 at 12:38 AM, dalethorn said:

Disagree.  I compare my music to live music and other live sounds.  Most headphones have enough variance in their response that it doesn't take long to eliminate most contenders, to come up with a few that sound like real music.  My point is that a lot of people get discouraged in their searches for natural sound, and they needn't be discouraged, if they have the patience to keep looking and listening.

 

Dale, in another thread someone mentioned that you have experience with HP amps. What would you recommend to go with HD650 (high impedance) headphones? I'm currently listening to them directly from the DAC balanced output, which sounds quite awesome to me, and plenty loud, but these are the first HPs I'm using with my system. All speaker listening for about 30 years prior to that  

 

Transparency and faithful frequency reproduction is my primary goal, and I don't want to spend too much money on something that will basically provide impedance matching. PM me if this is off topic for this thread. Thanks!

[dalethorn]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Dale, in another thread someone mentioned that you have experience with HP amps. What would you recommend to go with HD650 (high impedance) headphones? I'm currently listening to them directly from the DAC balanced output, which sounds quite awesome to me, and plenty loud, but these are the first HPs I'm using with my system. All speaker listening for about 30 years prior to that  

 

Transparency and faithful frequency reproduction is my primary goal, and I don't want to spend too much money on something that will basically provide impedance matching. PM me if this is off topic for this thread. Thanks!

 

Over at headfonia are the HD650 gurus - they believe it's the best thing under $1000 or so.  My biggest concern is the impedance spike around 100 hz, and if you have a lot of energy in a music track around that frequency, it could get muddy if the amp runs low on power due to the much greater impedance.

 

So if the upper bass sounds good when it's very strong, then I'd leave it alone.  Some people prefer solid state amps with a lot of detail and some like tube amps, but a headphone that has a warm character (HD650 warmer than HD600, etc.) might get too warm with tube amps, unless it's the really expensive tube amps.

 

I haven't heard any low-cost amps that I'd use with the HD650 unless I were desperate for more power.  So anyway, here's one of headfonia's takes on the 650 and how much improvement they got with a Schiit amp.  There's an older review somewhere there also.

 

https://www.headfonia.com/the-dark-sennheiser-hd650-all-for-the-music/2/

[pkane2001]

5 minutes ago, dalethorn said:

 

Over at headfonia are the HD650 gurus - they believe it's the best thing under $1000 or so.  My biggest concern is the impedance spike around 100 hz, and if you have a lot of energy in a music track around that frequency, it could get muddy if the amp runs low on power due to the much greater impedance.

 

So if the upper bass sounds good when it's very strong, then I'd leave it alone.  Some people prefer solid state amps with a lot of detail and some like tube amps, but a headphone that has a warm character (HD650 warmer than HD600, etc.) might get too warm with tube amps, unless it's the really expensive tube amps.

 

I haven't heard any low-cost amps that I'd use with the HD650 unless I were desperate for more power.  So anyway, here's one of headfonia's takes on the 650 and how much improvement they got with a Schiit amp.  There's an older review somewhere there also.

 

https://www.headfonia.com/the-dark-sennheiser-hd650-all-for-the-music/2/

 

Thank you, Dale! You've confirmed my experienced with these headphones. At $200 I paid for them, I find them to be a real steal. Appreciate your help!

 

[WAM]

In my experience, Arcam rHead is fine with HD650. They are affordable and well built. You should check out InnerFiddelty for a review.

 

Happy Listening