Headphones vs Speakers -- I'm MAD

[GUTB]

Most people say that after a certain point, high end headphones stop making sense and money is better spent on speakers.

 

But the hard truth to face is -- speakers aren't nearly as resolving as high end headphones, and getting more than the center image from loudspeakers takes an optimal room geometry that most people don't have. My speakers sound like veiled trash next to my HE-6, TH900 and Utopia.

 

Well I've spent over $500 on carpeting and acoustic panels. My entire living room was made into a listening room.

 

I got a pair of those new Chane 1.4s (bookshelves) and a Teac integrated (which claims to use an ICEPower amp so it shouldn't be garbage) to power them.

 

Veiled, rolled off, BORING, unresolving. It's true that the soundstage is wide, but it's basically center, left and right.

 

It's like, I'm listening to THIS instead of my Utopias? I'm feeding this trash with THOUSANDS of dollars worth of source gear, tweaks and AC products.

 

So what's going on? Are my speakers just entry level junk and I'm being taught a lesson for listening to avsforum?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[sdolezalek]

i'm being taught a lesson for listening to avsforum?

 

yup.

[Melvin]

Most people say that after a certain point, high end headphones stop making sense and money is better spent on speakers.

 

Well, only you can decide if this is true for you. Many prefer loudspeakers regardless of headphone quality. It's a different presentation and loudspeakers, for the most part, simply cost more for obvious reasons. Personally, I prefer speakers but headphones still have a place in my world.

[Kelly]

Why would you feed thousands of dollars of source gear into a few hundred dollars of amp and speakers? That makes absolutely no sense. The transducer is the always the most important factor in the sound of system. Mediocre speakers will always sound mediocre.

 

The cost of a headphone vs a loudspeaker system are not even close to equivalent. To get a pair of speakers even remotely as dynamic and resolving as your HE-6 would easily run into five figures. You have gone the opposite direction and gotten some cheapish loudspeakers and expected them to compete with state of the art headphones. Listen to some state of the art speakers and you will understand.

 

At the heart of it, though, is just a fundamentally different presentation. See my signature and you will realize I have pretty nice headphone system. My loudspeaker system isn't nearly as "resolving" as the headphones, but it is somehow more natural sounding and it is my preference.

[Dr Tone]

I have Hifiman Edition X cans and a Simaudio 230HAD dac/headphone amp at work. My home stereo system destroys them, but also costs 10 times as much.

 

After getting my stereo system dialed in, I hate headphone listening unless I can apply a little cross feed.

[dalethorn]

Most people say that after a certain point, high end headphones stop making sense and money is better spent on speakers. But the hard truth to face is -- speakers aren't nearly as resolving as high end headphones, and getting more than the center image from loudspeakers takes an optimal room geometry that most people don't have. My speakers sound like veiled trash next to my HE-6, TH900 and Utopia. Well I've spent over $500 on carpeting and acoustic panels. My entire living room was made into a listening room. I got a pair of those new Chane 1.4s (bookshelves) and a Teac integrated (which claims to use an ICEPower amp so it shouldn't be garbage) to power them. Veiled, rolled off, BORING, unresolving. It's true that the soundstage is wide, but it's basically center, left and right. It's like, I'm listening to THIS instead of my Utopias? I'm feeding this trash with THOUSANDS of dollars worth of source gear, tweaks and AC products. So what's going on? Are my speakers just entry level junk and I'm being taught a lesson for listening to avsforum? Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

From your description, it's an astounding difference that would be easily confirmed even by non-audiophile music lovers. So something is definitely wrong, because it shouldn't be like that. Granted that the difference in the micro-details will favor the top-end headphones, but the frequency response, signature, tonality etc. should be roughly in agreement. So if you're able to investigate, you may have your work cut out for you. It's good to have an audiophile friend or two that you can bring over to check things out, since I've known a few who could shake down a system to see where the weak points are.

[Bikutoru]

In my case my speaker system does sound unbelievable to me. Every time my wife or I put them on, we just smile in disbelieve it can sound that good.

My headphones, oh well, there are times when I have to take them off, to make sure I'm hearing what I'm hearing with headphones and my speakers are off, it happens a lot.

 

I don't even own anything that cost crazy money people put in their signatures here. No acoustic panels or any other studio level treatments. I'm happy I can concentrate on music discoveries. Tried DSD and that, for sure, I'm totally indifferent to MQA.

 

Good luck with enjoying what sounds good to you and drop what doesn't.

[GUTB]

Tonal balance is generally in agreement -- low end is messed up but I had to plug the rear ports as they were too close to the rear wall so that's a challenge to be faced. More critically, highs are super rolled off. Ribbon tweeters at rough ear level pointing straight at me shouldn't be that soft! One example in one of my favourite tracks the blues vocalist will occasionally scream into the mic (live recording). With my high end headphones this is piercing and makes me wince. On the speaker setup it lacks any of the explosive upper end energy and just sounds like it was levelled out in a studio or something.

 

The resolving power of lower level sounds is a joke. The sound of fingers pushing keys, harmonic richness of instruments, reverb around the vocals ALL gone. What a JOKE.

 

My amp is a Teac AI-301. Is it just too weak? Are my speakers just simply lo-fi and I'm wasting my time??

 

Sent from my LG-H820 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[Dr Tone]

Your speakers are obviously crap compared to your Utopia head phones.

 

A fairer comparison would be Focal Sopra 1 or Diablo Utopia book shelve speakers. But they would then show the weakness in your amp and let the loop begin.

[TubeLover]

I'm being taught a lesson for listening to avsforum?

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

Listen to that forum for video display information (where they have many, many people with major expertise) but pay no attention whatsoever to anything they say about two channel audio. I spent many, many years focused on headphones, was very active in that area of industry, and have heard the best phones and amps available. They are capable of producing a great listening experience. However, when it is done right, they cannot command the scope, impact and majesty of a truly good speaker based system. And with the cost of high end headphones, high end headphone amplification, etc., the cost difference is even becoming much closer than previously.

 

JC

[Lebouwsky]

Most people say that after a certain point, high end headphones stop making sense and money is better spent on speakers.

 

But the hard truth to face is -- speakers aren't nearly as resolving as high end headphones, and getting more than the center image from loudspeakers takes an optimal room geometry that most people don't have. My speakers sound like veiled trash next to my HE-6, TH900 and Utopia.

 

Well I've spent over $500 on carpeting and acoustic panels. My entire living room was made into a listening room.

 

I got a pair of those new Chane 1.4s (bookshelves) and a Teac integrated (which claims to use an ICEPower amp so it shouldn't be garbage) to power them.

 

Veiled, rolled off, BORING, unresolving. It's true that the soundstage is wide, but it's basically center, left and right.

 

It's like, I'm listening to THIS instead of my Utopias? I'm feeding this trash with THOUSANDS of dollars worth of source gear, tweaks and AC products.

 

So what's going on? Are my speakers just entry level junk and I'm being taught a lesson for listening to avsforum?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

Gutb, I've bin in exact the same position years ago like you are now. My hobby started with surround and eventually led to stereo because music matters more to me.

 

But I could'nt get the sound right, spent a lot on cables/ tweaks without satisfying result. I also had a sennheiser hd595, and each time I switched between these AV forum or review praised gear and the headphone, It was so obvious my system speaker system mediocre. Really frustrating.

 

One day I was fed up and sold everything (in phases) to start over again. The key is to listen to gear, not to read about it. And if you do, good stereo forums are the way to go, reviews in most cases are bought fake opinions I believe. So I traveled a lot through the country, listening to gear in the second hand market.

 

It really took me a lot of time, made a lot of miles, but I really enjoyed it, knowing I was doing the right thing. When you listen to a lot of gear you really learn whats good and what's not. But you also learn your preferences soundwise. And when you're in doubt, even just a little, don't buy. And if you fall in love but can't afford right now, keep saving, don't compromise.

 

It eventually led my to my current setup. My living room is also the listening room, it's a-symetrical, therefore not perfect, but I stoped worrying about the cirumstances I can not influance. I love listening to it.

 

I also have a sennheiser hd650 with a schiit lyr, which is for convenience and fun. Each time I switch between speakers and headphone, I'm being rewarded by better speaker sound.

 

Some people may not agree, but I believe the amplifier is the heart of the system. But then again, you have to know your system really well to recoignize the bottle neck, so you know what to upgrade next. And buy music [emoji1].

 

Happy listening

[astrallite]

You're comparing $250 speakers to a pair of $4000 headphones?

 

Pit the Focal Utopias against the Raidho D-1.1s and see if you still feel that way. Both the ribbon tweeter and the diamond woofers will have significantly faster speed of sound than that beryllium driver used by the Focal Utopias.

 

Diamond drivers and ribbon tweeters aren't practical for headphone use because of size and weight of the magnet structure, and that's exactly where you want to compare speakers to headphones, by leveraging the advantages of one design over the other. Speakers don't have these weight and size limitations, so you can easily put drivers on them that will be faster than any electrostatic or dynamic headphone driver.

[cfisher]

This is something I have been thinking about recently. With a new baby, my first priority was baby-proofing my stereo (first things first, right?). I replaced my baby killing Gallo Reference 3s with Spatial Audio M3S Turbos. I then ripped all of my CDs and replaced my CD player with a Microrendu and an Yggy. I also needed to baby-proof my ears, as I work mostly from home. I added an office headphone system of Microrendu>GUMBY>Jotunheim and got a pair of Focal Elears, HD-6XX (for the hell of it), and Campfire Audio Andromeda IEMs. While the headphone system has greatly enriched my work life, it doesn't come close to providing the enjoyment of sitting in front of my speakers. I don't think this is any fault of the headphone system, which sounds great. I am more a music lover than a full-bore audiophile, but to my ears the speakers provide a much more engaging soundstage and vastly superior dynamics. Also, shortly after the baby was born, I got a terrible case of conjunctivitis that left me with tinnitus in one ear. The tinnitus is far more noticeable with the headphones than it is with the speakers. While I am glad that I have both a speaker setup and headphones in my life, if I had to choose one it would definitely be the speaker setup.

[russellbobby]

I just bought my first pair of HP's the Sennheiser 650hd because the wife new job has her working from home and the Microzotl2.0s is a fantastic headphone amp. Although they sound ok I get no involvement. What would I have to spend to get a real good set of cans? I am not sure even with a great set it will bring me the feel I get when everything is grooving on the big rig.

[cfisher]

I just bought my first pair of HP's the Sennheiser 650hd because the wife new job has her working from home and the Microzotl2.0s is a fantastic headphone amp. Although they sound ok I get no involvement. What would I have to spend to get a real good set of cans? I am not sure even with a great set it will bring me the feel I get when everything is grooving on the big rig.

 

The Elears are for sure better than the HD-6XX but the difference is not 5x the price. I think IEMs are more likely to give an engaging experience that compliments your speaker setup.

[GUTB]

The HD600/650 is garbage. Veiled and boring mid-fi. The TH900 is vastly superior, sucked out mids and all. The Utopia is great in every category -- although I'm not convinced of its imaging capabilities and definitely not worth 2.7k premium over the TH900 or HE-6.

 

I don't want give up on speakers yet -- but do I seriously have to go get financing just to get technically capable hi-if speakers?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[cfisher]

The HD600/650 is garbage. Veiled and boring mid-fi. The TH900 is vastly superior, sucked out mids and all. The Utopia is great in every category -- although I'm not convinced of its imaging capabilities and definitely not worth 2.7k premium over the TH900 or HE-6.

 

I don't want give up on speakers yet -- but do I seriously have to go get financing just to get technically capable hi-if speakers?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

I wouldn't think so. The Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S deliver an extraordinary experience at a very reasonable price. I'm sure there are many other great speakers under $3000.

[dalethorn]

The Elears are for sure better than the HD-6XX but the difference is not 5x the price. I think IEMs are more likely to give an engaging experience that compliments your speaker setup.

 

The Elear should sound great compared to the gamut of 'Lifestyle' headphones that have a weak treble. But the Elear is a very different treble experience compared to top-end Beyers, Sennheisers, and AKG's.

[dalethorn]

The HD600/650 is garbage. Veiled and boring mid-fi. The TH900 is vastly superior, sucked out mids and all. The Utopia is great in every category -- although I'm not convinced of its imaging capabilities and definitely not worth 2.7k premium over the TH900 or HE-6. I don't want give up on speakers yet -- but do I seriously have to go get financing just to get technically capable hi-if speakers?

 

 

Many audiophiles assume that soundstage and imaging are very different issues from frequency response, and thus no compensation is possible using EQ. I've discovered that much of the problems with soundstage and imaging are addressable with EQ. It can be a tedious learn, but cheaper than buying new gear.

[pdvm]

The HD600/650 is garbage. Veiled and boring mid-fi. The TH900 is vastly superior, sucked out mids and all. The Utopia is great in every category -- although I'm not convinced of its imaging capabilities and definitely not worth 2.7k premium over the TH900 or HE-6.

 

I don't want give up on speakers yet -- but do I seriously have to go get financing just to get technically capable hi-if speakers?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

When you call the HD600/650 "garbage, veiled and boring mid-fi", you have every right to do so. But IMHO, that means either you have never heard live music in a concert hall, or you can't hear high frequencies any more. Or both. 4000 dollar flagship or not.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Kelly]

The HD600/650 is garbage. Veiled and boring mid-fi. The TH900 is vastly superior, sucked out mids and all. The Utopia is great in every category -- although I'm not convinced of its imaging capabilities and definitely not worth 2.7k premium over the TH900 or HE-6.

 

I don't want give up on speakers yet -- but do I seriously have to go get financing just to get technically capable hi-if speakers?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

So you just trashed a set of $500 headphones calling them garbage. How in the world would you possibly expect a pair of bookshelf speakers costing half that to compete? Furthermore, you need to make a real effort to match them with appropriate amplification. There was just a recent thread about the best speakers for under $2500. The Vandersteen 2 was a popular recommendation and one that I agree with, although it does need good amplification. However, even the basic entry level Odyssey Khartago at $1000 would definitely make them sing.

 

If you are really serious about hearing a good speaker setup then why not find a good audio shop? They are harder to find than they used to be, but they are definitely still around. Then you can listen to some setups at various pricepoints to get an idea of if it is something you want to further pursue. The fact you are willing to spend $4000 on headphones but not $400 on speakers before you start complaining about the cost makes it sound like you aren't really serious. That doesn't pass the BS sniff test.

[Lebouwsky]

The HD600/650 is garbage. Veiled and boring mid-fi. The TH900 is vastly superior, sucked out mids and all. The Utopia is great in every category -- although I'm not convinced of its imaging capabilities and definitely not worth 2.7k premium over the TH900 or HE-6.

 

I don't want give up on speakers yet -- but do I seriously have to go get financing just to get technically capable hi-if speakers?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

Everybody has their own preferences soundwise. That is a matter of taste and in most cases with priorities, since most of us can't have it all from a budget point of view.

 

That being said, to call something garbage that is appreciated by a lot of people with a certain budget.... I don't know... it doesn't sound very nuanced.

[Tone Deaf]

If you are really serious about hearing a good speaker setup then why not find a good audio shop? They are harder to find than they used to be, but they are definitely still around. Then you can listen to some setups at various pricepoints to get an idea of if it is something you want to further pursue.

 

Excellent advice. Find a way to listen to some modest to good speaker systems.

 

But if you are expecting a highly resolving speaker system, IMO you are not going to be able to achieve that cheaply.

[dalethorn]

Excellent advice. Find a way to listen to some modest to good speaker systems. But if you are expecting a highly resolving speaker system, IMO you are not going to be able to achieve that cheaply.

 

I'd suggest that how they resolve, or the impression of same, can be addressed to a large degree by positioning, and by how much damping of highs occurs in the room. I'm thinking if the OP started out facing those tweeters directly at close range, and they still sounded dull, then something is just plain defective there.

[Tone Deaf]

I'd suggest that how they resolve, or the impression of same, can be addressed to a large degree by positioning, and by how much damping of highs occurs in the room. I'm thinking if the OP started out facing those tweeters directly at close range, and they still sounded dull, then something is just plain defective there.

 

I agree in principle, however if the OP hopes to get resolution comparable to his Utopia headphones, my guess is his current speakers and amp simply won't perform at that level.