Roon & MQA - Software Decoding Is Coming!

[jtwrace]

Just used this combo here at CES 10 minutes ago. Really cool how it works and it sounds great.

 

You wouldn't use passthrough in this scenario. More to come ...

 

I've been looking at buying a DragonFly. Is the Red the preferred version or is there a new one coming out? It will be used with my MacBook Air (JRiver) and IEM's for travel. Currently using the Micro iDSD

[mink70]

If the MQA version wants to be hires, then it would be fair to compare it with the corresponding hires version (which was used to encode to MQA) and not with the CD quality version.

But MQA folding enables hi-rez to be streamed in the first place.

[mansr]

But MQA folding enables hi-rez to be streamed in the first place.

How so? HD video streaming works just fine at far higher rates than hi-res audio would need.

[bobbmd]

As busy as you may be this weekend thanks for the quick reply so per what you said the DF RED doesn't have MQA decoding yet don't worry about a reply just try to address how it worked at a later time and how you set it up

thanks again bobbmd

[Miska]

How so? HD video streaming works just fine at far higher rates than hi-res audio would need.

 

Yes, and carefully mastered hires standard FLAC would actually consume less bandwidth than MQA...

[jhwalker]

At least the 2L material really seems to play or contain just 88.2k. I have not yet found anything that would seem to go past 96k.

 

The software decoder used with Tidal only allows up to 2x decoding (i.e., either 88.2 or 96k). Only in the DACs that have hardware decoding can you get the full rate.

 

Speaking of which, seems even DACs like the Dragonfly (which is input-limited to 96k) should be able to output the full rate of the decoded MQA files, because the input is only 48k - so once it gets through the USB input at 48/24, it can be decoded up to the internal rate of the DAC (e.g., 768k for the Sabres used in the Dragonfly?).

[Miska]

The software decoder used with Tidal only allows up to 2x decoding (i.e., either 88.2 or 96k). Only in the DACs that have hardware decoding can you get the full rate.

 

Yes, but I'm talking about file downloads from 2L and highresaudio.com decoded in Meridian Explorer2.

[YashN]

Just used this combo here at CES 10 minutes ago. Really cool how it works and it sounds great.

 

Are you checking out en passant some of the new OLED and QLED 4K screens as well?

[miguelito]

If Tidal/Roon implements MQA through software, fine. Some will say it sounds a little better than a non MQA version, some will say a little worse. I discount all those that say it is WAY better or WAY worse than a non-MQA version.

 

But it is only streaming, so I don't care that much. I don't expect any stream to sound as good as a well recorded Redbook or hi-res file played back directly from my server. If streaming sounds better than mp3, I'm happy.

 

I will only care if MQA takes over, and the non-MQA versions of albums disappear. Then anyone who hasn't invested in an MQA DAC is sort of screwed, as software decoding will never equal what can be done with HW decoding, if I understand how correctly how it works.

Couple of things in my experience:

 

 

1- Just listened to a few tracks where you can find both the MQA and redbook versions in Roon - so NO decoding of MQA. I would not say one or the other is better, they generally are different - if anything the level is different. So to those saying the MQA version sounds better than redbook even if undecoded... I say not so far.

 

 

2- I have had a few instances where my rip (done fairly carefully with XLD to AIFF) did not sound as good as the Tidal version. It's marginal but I thought it was better on Tidal. I chuck this to the fact that there are many more steps to the rip than the file if gotten from the redbook master.

[miguelito]

But MQA folding enables hi-rez to be streamed in the first place.

Hmmm... Really? It produces a FLAC that's 2x bigger than the redbook, with a bandwidth that can be replicated by using a standard 18bit/96KHz FLAC, according to Miska's studies a long time back (and btw, back when MQA was adamant about no software decoding, so Roon/Audirvana where not getting decoding).

 

 

BTW: if you were to stream 18bit/96KHz in FLAC, EVERYONE can decode it without paying a cent to Bob Stuart!!!

 

 

 

BTW2: Qobuz has been streaming FLAC without any issues - for a long time!

[mansr]

Couple of things in my experience:

 

 

1- Just listened to a few tracks where you can find both the MQA and redbook versions in Roon - so NO decoding of MQA. I would not say one or the other is better, they generally are different - if anything the level is different. So to those saying the MQA version sounds better than redbook even if undecoded... I say not so far.

 

It's clear that the MQA tracks on Tidal are often different masters or mixes than the "hifi" versions. Not even MQA can make a song longer. This means comparing versions on Tidal tells you nothing about the effects of MQA other than that it doesn't always sound bad.

[miguelito]

It's clear that the MQA tracks on Tidal are often different masters or mixes than the "hifi" versions. Not even MQA can make a song longer. This means comparing versions on Tidal tells you nothing about the effects of MQA other than that it doesn't always sound bad.

Hahahaha!!! VERY good point!!!

[mink70]

Hmmm... Really? It produces a FLAC that's 2x bigger than the redbook, with a bandwidth that can be replicated by using a standard 18bit/96KHz FLAC, according to Miska's studies a long time back (and btw, back when MQA was adamant about no software decoding, so Roon/Audirvana where not getting decoding).

BTW: if you were to stream 18bit/96KHz in FLAC, EVERYONE can decode it without paying a cent to Bob Stuart!!!

BTW2: Qobuz has been streaming FLAC without any issues - for a long time!

Thanks for pointing this out. I was wrong about this.

[miguelito]

It's clear that the MQA tracks on Tidal are often different masters or mixes than the "hifi" versions. Not even MQA can make a song longer. This means comparing versions on Tidal tells you nothing about the effects of MQA other than that it doesn't always sound bad.

Agree it doesn't hold as apples-to-apples comparison.

 

 

However, there's one way the comparison holds: All I care about is getting better sounding music frankly. If MQA is amazing and picking the right master to encode and serve, then that's a point in their favor even if it has nothing to do with MQA the technology. But clearly that is not the case.

 

 

And lets be clear... If MQA flops at this point, meaning it's a bleh across the board, it is very simple: MQA will be thrown out. There's not reason for Tidal to double their storage and streaming costs for no benefit.

[miguelito]

Are you checking out en passant some of the new OLED and QLED 4K screens as well?

That's not a stereo. There's an image there. Not in my religion.

[jhwalker]

Hmmm... Really? It produces a FLAC that's 2x bigger than the redbook, with a bandwidth that can be replicated by using a standard 18bit/96KHz FLAC, according to Miska's studies a long time back (and btw, back when MQA was adamant about no software decoding, so Roon/Audirvana where not getting decoding).

 

 

BTW: if you were to stream 18bit/96KHz in FLAC, EVERYONE can decode it without paying a cent to Bob Stuart!!!

 

 

 

BTW2: Qobuz has been streaming FLAC without any issues - for a long time!

Just a quick correction - many (most?) players are only expecting standard bit depths and rates, so an 18/96 file would *not* be decodable / playable at this time. Miska himself said at the time that HQPlayer could manage any depth / rate, but other players could not. That said, it would likely be trivial to make the appropriate updates to make it possible.

 

In any case, the discussion of Miska's better streaming protocol is largely academic, because *no one* is doing it, nor will they in the foreseeable future and it also doesn't address the other purported benefits of the MQA process (i.e., temporal correction both at the ADC and DAC endpoints). Interesting to talk about, but largely irrelevant in context.

[miguelito]

Just a quick correction - many (most?) players are only expecting standard bit depths and rates, so an 18/96 file would *not* be decodable / playable at this time. Miska himself said at the time that HQPlayer could manage any depth / rate, but other players could not. That said, it would likely be trivial to make the appropriate updates to make it possible.

 

In any case, the discussion of Miska's better streaming protocol is largely academic, because *no one* is doing it, nor will they in the foreseeable future and it also doesn't address the other purported benefits of the MQA process (i.e., temporal correction both at the ADC and DAC endpoints). Interesting to talk about, but largely irrelevant in context.

Fair enough, point taken.

 

 

Qobuz is happily streaming high res in FLAC format.

 

 

On the purported benefits of MQA in the ADC/DAC corrections: Yes, this is probably a benefit.

 

 

I will make a few comments:

 

 

On the ADC:

That's marginal to not-applicable I think unless you're talking about a transfer from an analog tape directly to the master (which I suppose happens when mastering old music). In most mastering workflows these days, the engineer gets a digital file, many (most?) master in analog (so there's a DAC process right there), and finally go back to digital when producing the different versions of the master (redbook, high res download, vinyl). It is not clear to me where does the MQA bit come in, especially because from the original mix, to the final master, there's a bunch of stuff going on including DR compression, etc.

 

My point: I find the claim a bit disingenuous.

 

 

On the DAC:

Don't most manufacturers - especially high end ones - spend a bunch of work getting their DACs to perform flat in frequency and phase? Unless we are talking about el-cheapo DACs, I also find this a bit disingenuous.

 

 

So there...

[mansr]

Just a quick correction - many (most?) players are only expecting standard bit depths and rates, so an 18/96 file would *not* be decodable / playable at this time. Miska himself said at the time that HQPlayer could manage any depth / rate, but other players could not. That said, it would likely be trivial to make the appropriate updates to make it possible.

 

Wrong. To create an 18-bit FLAC file compatible with every player, you need only pad to 24 bits before encoding it. The compression will deal with the constant LSBs quite efficiently.

[mink70]

However, there's one way the comparison holds: All I care about is getting better sounding music frankly. If MQA is amazing and picking the right master to encode and serve, then that's a point in their favor even if it has nothing to do with MQA the technology. But clearly that is not the case.

 

Why is that clearly not the case?

[jhwalker]

Fair enough, point taken.

 

 

Qobuz is happily streaming high res in FLAC format.

 

 

On the purported benefits of MQA in the ADC/DAC corrections: Yes, this is probably a benefit.

 

 

I will make a few comments:

 

 

On the ADC:

That's marginal to not-applicable I think unless you're talking about a transfer from an analog tape directly to the master (which I suppose happens when mastering old music). In most mastering workflows these days, the engineer gets a digital file, many (most?) master in analog (so there's a DAC process right there), and finally go back to digital when producing the different versions of the master (redbook, high res download, vinyl). It is not clear to me where does the MQA bit come in, especially because from the original mix, to the final master, there's a bunch of stuff going on including DR compression, etc.

 

My point: I find the claim a bit disingenuous.

 

 

On the DAC:

Don't most manufacturers - especially high end ones - spend a bunch of work getting their DACs to perform flat in frequency and phase? Unless we are talking about el-cheapo DACs, I also find this a bit disingenuous.

 

 

So there...

 

I agree with much of what you're saying. I, too, fail to see any efficacy in the purported ADC "corrections" - as you say, by the time you get to a "final" master, the information has been through so many mixers, EQ, DSP, etc., how can *any* of the original ADC signature remain? And I'm sure many DAC designers are inherently opposed to replacing their own preferred filters with Bob Stuarts'

That said, it's clear that many of the Masters on Tidal (even with only software decoding) sound (to me, at least) much improved over any available hi-res releases. So either there *is* something to it, or I'm simply deluding myself . . . either of which are possible, of course LOL

[miguelito]

Why is that clearly not the case?

MQA claims that even if undecoded the MQA file would sound better than redbook. For the limited set I tried this is just not the case.

 

 

 

It might be the case that, with MQA decoding, what sounds unexciting becomes magical. I shall try in due course - it just means I have to change my connections to my mini directly (now using microRendu).

[mink70]

MQA claims that even if undecoded the MQA file would sound better than redbook. For the limited set I tried this is just not the case.

 

 

 

It might be the case that, with MQA decoding, what sounds unexciting becomes magical. I shall try in due course - it just means I have to change my connections to my mini directly (now using microRendu).

 

You can hear it right now using the software "partial" decoding in the Tidal desktop app.

[miguelito]

That said, it's clear that many of the Masters on Tidal (even with only software decoding) sound (to me, at least) much improved over any available hi-res releases. So either there *is* something to it, or I'm simply deluding myself . . . either of which are possible, of course LOL

Great! Can you point me to some that sound great? Look, as I have said all along, if MQA does give me better sound quality on average, then Bob Stuart gets my dollah!

[miguelito]

You can hear it right now using the software "partial" decoding in the Tidal desktop app.

Yes, I know. It's just I need to swap the connections and such - my DAC is not connected to my mini but my microRendu, and as long as Roon cannot decode MQA I would have to use the Tidal app on my mini. I might do it tomorrow.

[mink70]

Yes, I know. It's just I need to swap the connections and such - my DAC is not connected to my mini but my microRendu, and as long as Roon cannot decode MQA I would have to use the Tidal app on my mini. I might do it tomorrow.

Curious to hear your reaction.