MQA is Vaporware

[Jud]

28 minutes ago, Fyper said:

Isn't that the laws of supply and demand?

Eventually, streaming or no streaming, if there is a market for the music you like (the one difficult to find), then some clever mind will put it back on the market.

If there never was a market for that music, then you benefited from marketing glitches of the record companies back in the day.

They'll do some more in the future and they'll likely stay in the catalog even if streamed by 2 people in the world (because it won't cost them anything to do so and it'll inflate the catalog).

 

The problem is that it doesn't cost "nothing" to have downloadable files *and the infrastructure needed to support them*.  I'm old enough to remember not being able to buy new LPs any more - it was silver discs or nothing.  How much longer do you think the infrastructure for silver discs (including production facilities, sales and distribution networks) will be maintained?  After that, do you think Amazon will suddenly change all its mp3 offerings to RedBook or hi res?  Do you think they will offer everything even in mp3 they had on CD?

[mansr]

32 minutes ago, Fyper said:

Nothing personal Judd :-)

But I kind of like the idea of not subscribing to streaming providers and own your files to then subscribe remote storage and store these files in a place that you don't own => in the end it's the same : you stop paying, you've nothing. :-)

(unless it's a remote back up of your local HDrives...)

Even if it's your only copy, as long as you keep paying, it won't suddenly go away. With streaming services this can and does happen.

[Fyper]

13 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

The problem is that it doesn't cost "nothing" to have downloadable files *and the infrastructure needed to support them*.  I'm old enough to remember not being able to buy new LPs any more - it was silver discs or nothing.  How much longer do you think the infrastructure for silver discs (including production facilities, sales and distribution networks) will be maintained?  After that, do you think Amazon will suddenly change all its mp3 offerings to RedBook or hi res?  Do you think they will offer everything even in mp3 they had on CD?

No, as said I think it'll disappear, unless there is enough demand for it.

I can imagine someone buying the majors' catalog of unsold "rarities" for a few bucks and put them back on the market to see if there is hunger for it.

I actually I don't see what prevents it from happening today (making those available for download or streaming) a part from the fact that there is not enough demand for it.

I failed to see how streaming influence that.

[Jud]

2 minutes ago, Fyper said:

No, as said I think it'll disappear, unless there is enough demand for it.

I can imagine someone buying the majors' catalog of unsold "rarities" for a few bucks and put them back on the market to see if there is hunger for it.

I actually I don't see what prevents it from happening today (making those available for download or streaming) a part from the fact that there is not enough demand for it.

I failed to see how streaming influence that.

 

The infrastructure is in place for streaming and is financially favorable to the music industry.  What financial incentive is there for the industry to help the download segment (i.e., Apple, or Amazon if they wished) gear up?  Those companies are so large they would have tremendous negotiating leverage, resulting in less favorable deals for the industry.  Ask yourself how many corporate CEOs want to repeat the experience of giving control of their content to Apple.

 

And of course there is the fact that if you are worried about piracy, copying and distributing a file is trivial, capturing a stream a little less so.

[Jud]

21 minutes ago, mansr said:

Even if it's your only copy, as long as you keep paying, it won't suddenly go away. With streaming services this can and does happen.

 

Even if Amazon decided to jack up prices, limit storage space to less than you need, or stop the service for individual consumers altogether, they'd presumably give sufficient notice to allow you to find alternatives.

[Fyper]

3 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

The infrastructure is in place for streaming and is financially favorable to the music industry.  What financial incentive is there for the industry to help the download segment (i.e., Apple, or Amazon if they wished) gear up?  Those companies are so large they would have tremendous negotiating leverage, resulting in less favorable deals for the industry.  Ask yourself how many corporate CEOs want to repeat the experience of giving control of their content to Apple.

 

And of course there is the fact that if you are worried about piracy, copying and distributing a file is trivial, capturing a stream a little less so.

I quite agree with that but I think that wasn't your original point.

If I understood well, your point was that the development of streaming would make the catalog of available titles poorer.

And I'm saying that if there is an identified demand (and therefore profit) for a record, streaming or no streaming, it'll be made available to the market.

[mansr]

54 minutes ago, Jud said:

Even if Amazon decided to jack up prices, limit storage space to less than you need, or stop the service for individual consumers altogether, they'd presumably give sufficient notice to allow you to find alternatives.

Microsoft recently did exactly that.

[mansr]

59 minutes ago, Jud said:

And of course there is the fact that if you are worried about piracy, copying and distributing a file is trivial, capturing a stream a little less so.

It doesn't seem to be stopping video pirates.

[Jud]

50 minutes ago, Fyper said:

I quite agree with that but I think that wasn't your original point.

If I understood well, your point was that the development of streaming would make the catalog of available titles poorer.

And I'm saying that if there is an identified demand (and therefore profit) for a record, streaming or no streaming, it'll be made available to the market.

 

It's all interconnected.

 

Disc and download sales are less economically favorable for the industry in part because artists get paid a bigger share of the proceeds than they get from streaming.  Many fewer artists can make a living from streaming than disc or download sales, so fewer artists will be available.

 

Streaming has less of a "long tail" than downloads or CDs because streaming companies also get a lower share per stream than Apple gets for downloads or Amazon gets for discs.  Spotify today has 30 million tracks; back in 2013 Apple already had 35 million on iTunes.  30 million tracks is, let's say, about 2.5 million albums; between CDs and mp3s (remember, declining segments of the industry), do you suppose Amazon has that many or more albums/tracks for sale?  

 

So the economics I talked about has a direct bearing on availability of tracks from less well known artists and particular masterings even from famous artists.  (This is aside from distribution contracts and rights disputes that affect availability of tracks from current famous artists.)

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

It doesn't seem to be stopping video pirates.

 

That's why I said "a little." That was part of the genius of iTunes, making ownership so trivially affordable there is next to no incentive for piracy.

[mansr]

11 minutes ago, Jud said:

Disc and download sales are less economically favorable for the industry in part because artists get paid a bigger share of the proceeds than they get from streaming.  Many fewer artists can make a living from streaming than disc or download sales, so fewer artists will be available.

Labels don't care about artists, only profits. If they make more money from a small number of vigorously promoted, auto-tuned, no-talent ass-clowns, that's exactly what they'll serve up.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Labels don't care about artists, only profits. If they make more money from a small number of vigorously promoted, auto-tuned, no-talent ass-clowns, that's exactly what they'll serve up.

 

Yes, but that's a constant, not a variable, across distribution modes.

[mansr]

Just now, Jud said:

Yes, but that's a constant, not a variable, across distribution modes.

The most profitable balance might vary between distribution modes.

[Jud]

11 minutes ago, mansr said:

The most profitable balance might vary between distribution modes.

 

Amusing to contemplate corporate pie charts with color coded segment in various proportions per distribution channel reading "No talent Auto-Tuned ass clowns."

[crenca]

52 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Amusing to contemplate corporate pie charts with color coded segment in various proportions per distribution channel reading "No talent Auto-Tuned ass clowns."

 

You won't see it, but that is what they are thinking - there simply is no way to avoid it.  Heck, the more honest ones will say it...

[lucretius]

6 hours ago, mansr said:

Labels don't care about artists, only profits. If they make more money from a small number of vigorously promoted, auto-tuned, no-talent ass-clowns, that's exactly what they'll serve up.

 

Maybe those robot voices will sound better with upsampling?

[Rt66indierock]

6 hours ago, Jud said:

 

It's all interconnected.

 

Disc and download sales are less economically favorable for the industry in part because artists get paid a bigger share of the proceeds than they get from streaming.  Many fewer artists can make a living from streaming than disc or download sales, so fewer artists will be available.

 

Streaming has less of a "long tail" than downloads or CDs because streaming companies also get a lower share per stream than Apple gets for downloads or Amazon gets for discs.  Spotify today has 30 million tracks; back in 2013 Apple already had 35 million on iTunes.  30 million tracks is, let's say, about 2.5 million albums; between CDs and mp3s (remember, declining segments of the industry), do you suppose Amazon has that many or more albums/tracks for sale?  

 

So the economics I talked about has a direct bearing on availability of tracks from less well known artists and particular masterings even from famous artists.  (This is aside from distribution contracts and rights disputes that affect availability of tracks from current famous artists.)

 

Jud,

I’ve been following your concerns about less popular groups not producing physical media. I don’t think smaller acts are going to stop making CDs because part of their revenue at a concert is the sales of CDs. They travel well and are easy to make. And as long as concert revenue is how bands survive and market themselves I think CDs will be available.

 

As far as having the best available version one of my favorite bands (unfortunately on life support) Zoe Muth and the Lost High Rollers goes like this: Vinyl dull, CD the same, streaming pass, MP3 pass but the live set at Threadgills on YouTube is awesome.

 

Amazon today has 5.5 million albums in the category vinyl and CD. When I wrote the original post TIDAL had 46 million tracks. But there is still a lot of music that you can’t get except through the bands themselves.

[Jud]

29 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Jud,

I’ve been following your concerns about less popular groups not producing physical media. I don’t think smaller acts are going to stop making CDs because part of their revenue at a concert is the sales of CDs. They travel well and are easy to make. And as long as concert revenue is how bands survive and market themselves I think CDs will be available.

 

As far as having the best available version one of my favorite bands (unfortunately on life support) Zoe Muth and the Lost High Rollers goes like this: Vinyl dull, CD the same, streaming pass, MP3 pass but the live set at Threadgills on YouTube is awesome.

 

Amazon today has 5.5 million albums in the category vinyl and CD. When I wrote the original post TIDAL had 46 million tracks. But there is still a lot of music that you can’t get except through the bands themselves.

 

It's not that artists would choose to stop making physical CDs, but that the option would be taken away from them if/when the industry decides to stop producing them and the pressing plants go out of business.

[christopher3393]

10 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

It's not that artists would choose to stop making physical CDs, but that the option would be taken away from them if/when the industry decides to stop producing them and the pressing plants go out of business.

Won't most of us be dead by then?  

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Just now, Jud said:

 

It's not that artists would choose to stop making physical CDs, but that the option would be taken away from them if/when the industry decides to stop producing them and the pressing plants go out of business.

I do not disagree.  But, would that cataclysmic event be caused by demand pull or supply push?  If consumers are buying the discs in sufficient numbers, It is hard for me to imagine that suppliers would force them to look to streaming/downloads by shutting down disc production. Why would a Sony, etc. shut down a profitable disc plant, forcing customers to other channels - downloads, streaming - from which it derives little, if any, revenue by comparison?

 

OTOH, if consumers are attracted to the streaming/downloading experience, whether that is for convenience, SQ, misguided belief, drinking the MQA Kool Aid, or whatever, disc sales will decline, and disc plants will shutter.

 

In other words, it is ultimately about consumer demand.  Economists often chuckle about something called Jean Baptiste Say's early 19th Century "Law", which states "supply creates its own demand".  In the audio business, and far beyond that, most everything really derives from consumer demand.  Suppliers will find a way to provide what the consumer will pay for, as long as they can do that profitably.

[Rt66indierock]

59 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

It's not that artists would choose to stop making physical CDs, but that the option would be taken away from them if/when the industry decides to stop producing them and the pressing plants go out of business.

 

I'll worry when I can't get an All Pro Solutions Olympus 4H headed out the door to any number of businesses besides record companies. As of today any small label could have one in a week if they are in the continental United States. 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

I wouldn't worry about CDs or replicating facilities. What you're probably talking about is physical media. In the future that can just as easily be a flash drive if you want to purchase something. or, the artist can offer a download via bandcamp. I think you get to the same place. It's not streaming. 

[Sal1950]

2 hours ago, christopher3393 said:

Won't most of us be dead by then?  

Many of us will!

Some of us should.  LOL

[Jud]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I wouldn't worry about CDs or replicating facilities. What you're probably talking about is physical media. In the future that can just as easily be a flash drive if you want to purchase something. or, the artist can offer a download via bandcamp. I think you get to the same place. It's not streaming. 

 

Problem with Bandcamp and similar is not variety but discovery.

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Problem with Bandcamp and similar is not variety but discovery.

 

Compared to what?