MQA is Vaporware

[mcgillroy]

Or in other words the guy is just another MQA marketing debacle.

 

Thank god for popcorn.

[mansr]

3 hours ago, firedog said:

Yes, but he has repeatedly insisted that " B-spline interpolation is used in conjunction with a compressed reference signal to reconstruct the original analog waveform" and that I don't know what I'm talking about. I asked him what an MQA encoder does with audio signals above 48khz. We know that it doesn't  encode them, something which seems to escape him. 

 

I'd guess you could get a non lossy MQA file if you had a very bandwidth limited original source.

That could be how the core decoder works. Many codecs consist of a predictive filter and a compressed residual. If the residual compresses well enough to fit within the allocated bandwidth, the result can even be lossless. FLAC is always lossless since it doesn't cap the bandwidth. MQA, howver, allocates a fixed rate of 8 bits per sample per channel to encode the 24-48 kHz frequency range. If the goal is 16-bit accuracy, this means the content must compress to half size or better, a not unreasonable demand. Given the small amount of information present at these frequencies in most music, it could even end up being lossless. However, if the compression algorithm fails to achieve this ratio, something must be discarded, i.e. it will be lossy. This is mathematically guaranteed to happen for some inputs.

[Brinkman Ship]

7 hours ago, fung0 said:

 

It's true, I haven't run into any links that obviously use this particular monetization scheme. On the other hand, most links these days are coded in ways that would make it difficult to know if something like this were going on.

 

The larger point is that there is a very real, long-standing movement to monetize journalism. One of the reasons I find the MQA situation so fascinating is that it highlights as never before the rot that's long been growing at the heart of tech journalism in particular.

 

When I started out in print, about half the income of the magazine I worked for came from the readers - and much of that via annual subscriptions, which provided a comfortable revenue base. Today, few web publications are able to generate much direct consumer revenue. Readers are monetized via advertising, of one form or another. As is often pointed out in the case of Facebook, this means that consumers are no longer the customers - they are now the product that is sold to the actual corporate backers.

 

Even within this broken system, individual journalists are rarely evil people - and overt corruption is probably much rarer than any of us might estimate. But the incessant pressures of the business make it harder and harder to take a truly unbiased stance. Digging deep is not rewarded, and expertise is valued less than a glib ability to sound knowledgeable while saying nothing of substance.

 

MQA seems like the culmination of all that. It's not the only recent example of a marketing campaign masquerading as a technological breakthrough - but it is surely the leader in its field. It's got something for every audio journalist - excepting maybe a vanishingly few who still dare to ask tough questions, or challenge extravagant claims. (It's not accidental that the main challenges to the MQA narrative have come from people who do not earn their living this way.)

 

Very insightful and well written post. Lots to digest here.

 

i will say, that as you note, we should not paint a picture of journalists as spineless hacks on the take. That is simply not the case. There are many who do their jobs very seriously and operate quite independently.

 

I am very please we have posts on this forum from all sides (manufacturers, press, audiophies etc) for different perspectives. Contrary to what people like Jim Austin and Andrew Q post, nobody here wants an echo chamber.

[skikirkwood]

On 6/15/2018 at 5:59 PM, Brinkman Ship said:

The author is a joke. Not even worth 2 seconds of consideration. In fact, this "publication: is a total and utter joke.

 

It's owned by Luxury Publishing Group who mentions "Going forward, LGP is working on developing additional online publications in areas including golf, private jets, spirits, timepieces and beyond. Stay tuned for news on our next publication launches as well as word on upcoming acquisitions."

 

Since a key part of their business goals are to maximize SEO everyone here is helping them by putting their article links in the posts on these forums, therefore helping their SEO by increasing their PageRank for search engines.  Best just to ignore fools like this author and their publications.

[n2it]

Disclaimer: I have only read through about 1/4 of this topic (at various times), I have never listened to MQA, I am in no way associated with MQA or the audio industry and I may be taking advantage of 90 days of free Tidal because of my phone ?

 

Oddly - MQA has come up the past couple weeks in seemingly ordinary activities.  

 

This was included in the latest Android update on my phone:

Quote

Oreo 8.1 build (OTA and Fastboot) on Essential Phone for Open Market (OPM1.180104.234). Changes include:
• Google Security Patches 2018-06
• Bluetooth Stability Fixes
• NEW FEATURE - Support for MQA (Master Quality Authenticated) audio.

 

Essential (the manufacturer of my phone) has a partnership with MQA and Tidal (https://www.essential.com/blog/music).  I guess they think this will be a differentiator for them.

 

Another time last week, I was at breakfast with a colleague and he mentioned that he was selling some audio gear on ebay and that he had simplified his life by buying Meridian DSP5200SE's and that he loved the quality of MQA (from Tidal).  I asked him why and if he had compared it to anything else (like Quboz or high res downloads) ... he said no and didn't even know those other options existed.  He used Tidal and the Meridian speakers because they would be easiest for his wife (and him) to use.

 

Interesting to see the marketing at work.

 

 

[mansr]

9 minutes ago, n2it said:

Essential (the manufacturer of my phone) has a partnership with MQA and Tidal

They also have a partnership with the Grim Reaper: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-24/andy-rubin-s-phone-maker-essential-is-said-to-consider-sale

[MikeyFresh]

11 minutes ago, n2it said:

I guess they think this will be a differentiator for them.

 

Apparently not any longer, the Essential Phone 2 was canceled, and the company is exploring sell-off options, which might be a polite way of saying they face liquidation without a buyer.

 

https://www.tomsguide.com/us/essential-phone-2-cancelled,news-27276.html

 

In that context any further MQA co-promotion or development seems unlikely.

 

Edit: my post crossed in cyber space with that of @mansr above.

[rickca]

Teac NT-505 now has a firmware update supporting MQA decoding.  Devices continue to roll out.  Exasound e32 Mark II also supports MQA. 

 

MQA better have something big on deck to warrant this R&D investment by so many manufacturers.  I still find it bewildering.

[n2it]

21 minutes ago, mansr said:

They also have a partnership with the Grim Reaper: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-24/andy-rubin-s-phone-maker-essential-is-said-to-consider-sale

 

20 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

Apparently not any longer, the Essential Phone 2 was canceled, and the company is exploring sell-off options, which might be a polite way of saying they face liquidation without a buyer.

 

https://www.tomsguide.com/us/essential-phone-2-cancelled,news-27276.html

 

In that context any further MQA co-promotion or development seems unlikely.

 

Edit: my post crossed in cyber space with that of @mansr above.

 

Agree that the future is unclear for Essential, but this is still a new announcement from Essential from earlier this month (i.e. after the up for sale announcement). 

 

They also announced at the same time the availability of a snap on (ESS Sabre based) DAC/AMP (supporting MQA) for the current phone planned to be released at the end of this summer ... now whether that will come to fruition ... who knows.

[Brinkman Ship]

Comparing Gillian Welch's Boots No.1 CD Rip vs. 24/44.1 MQA version-

 

Difference were subtle, but

 

-MQA version had a distinct peak in the lower treble

 

-Transients were slightly softened

 

@Rt66indierock-most importantly, something you pointed out was very true, harmonies with

David Rawlings sounded wrong, like someone applied a slight amount of Auto Tune. Hard to

describe, but it sounded correct with the CD rip.

[Rt66indierock]

4 hours ago, Brinkman Ship said:

Comparing Gillian Welch's Boots No.1 CD Rip vs. 24/44.1 MQA version-

 

Difference were subtle, but

 

-MQA version had a distinct peak in the lower treble

 

-Transients were slightly softened

 

@Rt66indierock-most importantly, something you pointed out was very true, harmonies with

David Rawlings sounded wrong, like someone applied a slight amount of Auto Tune. Hard to

describe, but it sounded correct with the CD rip.

 

I didn't drive a thousand miles last weekend to see Eilen Jewell and Amanda Ann Platt and get messed up harmonies with both women. I insist on the same for their recordings. 

 

You are seeing the issues with computer conversions of files to MQA. 

[mansr]

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/qobuz-coming-america

 

"Qobuz will be the first streaming platform in North America that offers true high-resolution music, up to 24/192. There’s no need for a special DAC or server. Qobuz “unfolds” resolutions from 16/44 to 24/192 on any computer or capable device from FLAC files."

[rickca]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

Qobuz “unfolds” resolutions

That word unfolds makes me nervous.  At the moment Qobuz doesn't do MQA.

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, rickca said:

That word unfolds makes me nervous.  At the moment Qobuz doesn't do MQA.

I think they're just having a bit of fun with words.

[MetalNuts]

45 minutes ago, rickca said:

That word unfolds makes me nervous.  At the moment Qobuz doesn't do MQA.

 

Yes, it sounds like the MQA slogan.

41 minutes ago, mansr said:

I think they're just having a bit of fun with words.

 

I might be wrong since English is not my mother tongue but it does not make sense at all.  To unfold something, that something must be folded, otherwise, there is nothing to be unfolded.  Ordinary high resolution files like wav, flac are folded or I am being fooled?

[mansr]

23 minutes ago, MetalNuts said:

I might be wrong since English is not my mother tongue but it does not make sense at all.  To unfold something, that something must be folded, otherwise, there is nothing to be unfolded.  Ordinary high resolution files like wav, flac are folded or I am being fooled?

"Folding" is just Bob Stuart newspeak for compression. Qobuz are making fun of MQA. Nothing sinister.

[MetalNuts]

Just now, mansr said:

"Folding" is just Bob Stuart newspeak for compression. Qobuz are making fun of MQA. Nothing sinister.

BS folded it up so that it can be unfolded, it looks like there a process being made. 

 

Qobus is pretending a process made which is not required and does not exist.

 

Anyway, I disagree that compress = fold. To me, fold is to overlap part of the something with itself, that thing does not experience extra pressure apart from its own weight.  Compress is to squeeze that something with external pressure. 

 

There should be a lot of words that can be used to properly describe the process.  By the way his initial BS may be what he has been saying. ?

[Derek Hughes]

David Solomon was the lead, along with Gayle Sanders, for Eikon Audio's launch at Axpona. I spent quite a bit of time with him during the Eikon demo. Has left them already? I'll check in with him at RMAF. Why move from Eikon so quickly and what's the big attraction to Qobuz?

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, Derek Hughes said:

David Solomon was the lead, along with Gayle Sanders, for Eikon Audio's launch at Axpona. I spent quite a bit of time with him during the Eikon demo. Has left them already? I'll check in with him at RMAF. Why move from Eikon so quickly and what's the big attraction to Qobuz?

He was only contracting to Gayle.

[shtf]

I’m curious.  Whatever happened to Sterophile’s Jim Austin?  It’s like he appeared briefly 6 weeks ago to sway or conquer, failed , then disappeared just as quickly. 

 

Come to think of it, I get the impression that like Austin, some others from the magazines behave in much the same manner.  Kinda’ like a Muhammad Ali strike and move damage controlling strategy.

 

But I’ve no doubt they’re all reading every post in this thread just waiting for the next opportune time to strike.  And of course then disappear again. 

 

I have my own speculations but I’m dying to know what really has motivated the magazines to behave in this highly unusual way.  Can anybody think of any other product or technology introduced to high-end audio where the magazines developed what seems almost like a swat team tag team mentality?  We're talking long term mind you, like 3.5 years long thus far.

 

[MikeyFresh]

2 minutes ago, shtf said:

Whatever happened to Sterophile’s Jim Austin?  It’s like he appeared briefly 6 weeks ago to sway or conquer, failed , then disappeared just as quickly. 

 

That about sums it up.

 

4 minutes ago, shtf said:

But I’ve no doubt they’re all reading every post in this thread just waiting for the next opportune time to strike.  And of course then disappear again. 

 

That would assume there are such opportunities. I can only infer they saw what previously had looked like opportunities all but dry up, and thus they've vanished.

 

6 minutes ago, shtf said:

Can anybody think of any other product or technology introduced to high-end audio where the magazines developed what seems almost like a swat team tag team mentality?

 

I cannot, no.

[firedog]

6 hours ago, mansr said:

"Folding" is just Bob Stuart newspeak for compression. Qobuz are making fun of MQA. Nothing sinister.

Yep.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

9 hours ago, mansr said:

I think they're just having a bit of fun with words.

 

I'm still chuckling. Very clever.

[mansr]

8 hours ago, MetalNuts said:

BS folded it up so that it can be unfolded, it looks like there a process being made. 

 

Qobus is pretending a process made which is not required and does not exist.

 

Anyway, I disagree that compress = fold. To me, fold is to overlap part of the something with itself, that thing does not experience extra pressure apart from its own weight.  Compress is to squeeze that something with external pressure. 

 

There should be a lot of words that can be used to properly describe the process.  By the way his initial BS may be what he has been saying. ?

You're reading it too literally.

[botrytis]

4 minutes ago, mansr said:

You're reading it too literally.

Sometimes, people who do not have English as their mother tongue are more literal in their use of the language.