Norton Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 12 hours ago, rwdvis said: So I guess that makes it okay then? Others do it, so have at it all you MQA shills. You know there is a difference between shilling, and marketing and promoting a product, don’t you? Wow, this says something about you. You realize there’s a difference between shilling and marketing, promoting and representing a product, don’t you? Shilling involves lying, harm and deception. You’re okay with that? Is shilling permitted on your site? I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were confusing marketing and promotion with shilling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill I would argue that it’s a bad business decision for companies to use shills. Once it becomes obvious that shills are being used, and it should be obvious at this point in the case of MQA, then the company loses all credibility. It demonstrates that there’s not much the business has to offer, so it has to rely on lies and deception to sell whatever it is it’s selling. It sure looks that way. And now apparently even trying to defend the act of shilling. Typically, Chris’ activity on the forum is pretty light, but when a new MQA shill appears he suddenly becomes more active and the majority of his responses directed at critics. Just as a matter of interest, who are the schills for MQA on this site that you describe above? Link to comment
Brian Lucey Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 1 hour ago, #Yoda# said: A great converter at 96k blows away most converters at 44.1 A well made AD at 44.1 beats a shitty AD at 96k. The engineering is 98% of the sound. 96k vs. 44.1 in the Pacific Microsonics = less low end density at 96k, plus you need to SRC down to release it on CD. This is stupid. Lesser gear needs higher rates to shine, the best gear does not. Higher rates alters the presentation, not the quality. Flavors of the same meal. Not a better meal. Sideways by sample rate, assuming great gear. Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted November 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2017 2 minutes ago, Norton said: Just as a matter of interest, who are the schills for MQA on this site that you describe above? They tend to get themselves banned. Ran, mav52, Tsarnik and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Popular Post Brian Lucey Posted November 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Samuel T Cogley said: I agree that 44.1 has a lot of advantages, but you're not really selling your expertise by pissing all over audiophiles. That is your audience here. You know that right? I am not here to make friends, I'm telling the truth to music lovers and those who seek the best. Audiophiles are often caught up in the wrong thing. If you want AUTHENTIC and IN THE STUDIO masters, you need to know the native sample rate of the mastering session. That is the best quality, the rest is making people money and bolstering egos ..." I have that record on DSD" ! Dumb. Any change from the native sample rate of the session is not authentic to the artist and lesser quality. Absolutely, always. Pure Vinyl Club, Shadders and Don Hills 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Samuel T Cogley Posted November 30, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said: I am not here to make friends, I'm telling the truth. Audiophiles are caught up in the wrong thing. If you want AUTHENTIC and IN THE STUDIO masters, you need to know the native sample rate of the mastering session. That is the best quality, the rest is making people money and bolstering EGO ... I have that record on DSD ! Dumb. While I have respect for your professional expertise, I have seen no evidence that you have a clue about audiophiles. What they believe, what they know, what they want, and why they want it. Your opinions in that realm have very little value, IMHO. And it sure doesn't look to me like you want to learn anything about them. Your mind is made up, and you wear your bigotry on your sleeve. daverich4, synn, Tsarnik and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Lee Scoggins Posted November 30, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2017 33 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said: A well made AD at 44.1 beats a shitty AD at 96k. The engineering is 98% of the sound. 96k vs. 44.1 in the Pacific Microsonics = less low end density at 96k, plus you need to SRC down to release it on CD. This is stupid. Lesser gear needs higher rates to shine, the best gear does not. Higher rates alters the presentation, not the quality. Flavors of the same meal. Not a better meal. Sideways by sample rate, assuming great gear. Hmm, this is not my experience at all. Higher sampling rates always improve quality with good mic placement and ADCs. I’ve done many hirez live to track recordings where we used a mic cable splitter to compare 24/176 and 24/96 to 16/44. We have also done this with PCM vs. DSD, using a variety of ADCs. Pure Vinyl Club and Teresa 1 1 Link to comment
Lee Scoggins Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 36 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said: I am not here to make friends, I'm telling the truth to music lovers and those who seek the best. Audiophiles are often caught up in the wrong thing. If you want AUTHENTIC and IN THE STUDIO masters, you need to know the native sample rate of the mastering session. That is the best quality, the rest is making people money and bolstering egos ..." I have that record on DSD" ! Dumb. Any change from the native sample rate of the session is not authentic to the artist and lesser quality. Absolutely, always. This is not always true. For instance, in 1991 I ran the tape machine for the McCoy Tyner New York Reunion session. We also used the latest converters to record digitally in 16/44. Later the tape was mastered to DSD for a Super Audio CD. While the early LP is very good, in many respects the SACD is my favorite version. As long as one uses care in the mastering, an analog tape can be a great source for CDs and hirez formats. Teresa 1 Link to comment
Brian Lucey Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, Lee Scoggins said: This is not always true. For instance, in 1991 I ran the tape machine for the McCoy Tyner New York Reunion session. We also used the latest converters to record digitally in 16/44. Later the tape was mastered to DSD for a Super Audio CD. While the early LP is very good, in many respects the SACD is my favorite version. As long as one uses care in the mastering, an analog tape can be a great source for CDs and hirez formats. You're confusing topics. Audiophile recording in a flat transfer vs creative pop mastering. Best gear higher rates for flat transfers, sure. Not most mastering however. Link to comment
Brian Lucey Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 40 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said: While I have respect for your professional expertise, I have seen no evidence that you have a clue about audiophiles. What they believe, what they know, what they want, and why they want it. Your opinions in that realm have very little value, IMHO. And it sure doesn't look to me like you want to learn anything about them. Your mind is made up, and you wear your bigotry on your sleeve. Do Audiophiles want best quality and authentic music as it was intended? Yes or No Link to comment
mansr Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said: Do Audiophiles want best quality and authentic music as it was intended? Yes or No They want it the way their beliefs say it ought to have been intended. Shadders 1 Link to comment
wushuliu Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Gotta side with Brian on this. I don't see what's controversial about what he's saying. We as audiophiles and consumers have very little clue about the professional studio recording and mastering process - and I'm not talking small independent audiophile-oriented stuff that gets cycled through the usual audio magazines. This makes the MQA and streaming talk all the more frustrating because there is ZERO transparency on the source material. You'd think if MQA was so artist and quality focused they would make every effort to reveal that info. I wouldn't be surprised for instance if someone like Rick Rubin or, say, Beck, or even Kanye, worked with 'lower res' (to us) as part of their palatte. Hell yeah I'd want to hear that directly, not some hi-res conversion just to appease a demographic that is convinced the higher the bit rate the better. Link to comment
Popular Post kumakuma Posted November 30, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2017 55 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said: I am not here to make friends, I'm telling the truth to music lovers and those who seek the best. Audiophiles are often caught up in the wrong thing. If you want AUTHENTIC and IN THE STUDIO masters, you need to know the native sample rate of the mastering session. That is the best quality, the rest is making people money and bolstering egos ..." I have that record on DSD" ! Dumb. Any change from the native sample rate of the session is not authentic to the artist and lesser quality. Absolutely, always. You appear to be in VIOLENT AGREEMENT with most audiophiles. You'll find few people here or anywhere else in the audiophile community that want music released in DSD simply because the release format is DSD. We always want our music in the format that it was recorded in. This is why sites that cater to audiophiles usually provide technical information/session information on the recording that they sell. synn, Teresa and Mordikai 2 1 Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
wushuliu Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, kumakuma said: We always want our music in the format that it was recorded in. This is why sites that cater to audiophiles usually provide technical information/session information on the recording that they sell. I'm not aware of sites that provide that kind of information for recordings that aren't niche audiophile-oriented. kumakuma 1 Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted November 30, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2017 17 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said: Do Audiophiles want best quality and authentic music as it was intended? Yes or No I think most of us would love to get the master-however it was done. People here who like a different flavor - say DSD, because their system sounds best that way - are perfectly capable of converting the master if they prefer to listen that way. I do sort of think that you and Lee are talking about 2 different things: he is talking about live recording of acoustic instruments in jazz and classical where he hears that high sample rates make a difference - as he noted with violins. You are talking about modern music - mostly electronic multitrack recordings with a lot of processing. I think those of us who are honest would agree that any difference we hear with high sample rates is generally on recordings with the first type of instrumentation rather than the second. kumakuma, Pure Vinyl Club, Samuel T Cogley and 1 other 3 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 27 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said: Do Audiophiles want best quality and authentic music as it was intended? Yes or No There is no simple yes or no here. If you're sincere about having a discussion about this, head over to the "What is the definition of an audiophile" thread and ask there. It's off topic in this thread. Link to comment
wushuliu Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 1 minute ago, firedog said: You are talking about modern music - mostly electronic multitrack recordings with a lot of processing. He's referring to the overwhelming majority of music period. Unless The Beatles are no longer considered 'modern'. Link to comment
mansr Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 45 minutes ago, Lee Scoggins said: Hmm, this is not my experience at all. Higher sampling rates always improve quality with good mic placement and ADCs. I’ve done many hirez live to track recordings where we used a mic cable splitter to compare 24/176 and 24/96 to 16/44. We have also done this with PCM vs. DSD, using a variety of ADCs. What microphones and speakers do you use? Link to comment
Brian Lucey Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said: There is no simple yes or no here. If you're sincere about having a discussion about this, head over to the "What is the definition of an audiophile" thread and ask there. It's off topic in this thread. It's a simple question. A forum of answers is not needed. Do you want the real deal, or do you want your ideas, your ego and your investment in system to be part of the "creative" process? Shadders 1 Link to comment
Brian Lucey Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 9 minutes ago, mansr said: What microphones and speakers do you use? Mics and pre amps are a choice, and ALL are colored. Even the clean ones have a color. Where they are placed is a creative choice. There is no perfection in music production, no original sin, no straight wire with gain, no recreation of the live space. That is all marketing. Shadders 1 Link to comment
Brian Lucey Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 16 minutes ago, firedog said: I think most of us would love to get the master-however it was done. That's great news. Not the higher rates? The ACTUAL SESSION file, from our mastering rooms. Great ! Quote I think those of us who are honest would agree that any difference we hear with high sample rates is generally on recordings with the first type of instrumentation rather than the second. Of course, and if I was recording a cello in a room for an perfectionist result, I would also go 96k or higher with the PM M2. Yet for mastering the 44.1 M1 is the better sonic choice, and 99% of music is in my wheelhouse, modern, distorted, compressed, popular music. Link to comment
Brian Lucey Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 19 minutes ago, wushuliu said: I'm not aware of sites that provide that kind of information for recordings that aren't niche audiophile-oriented. Right? Neither am I Would be ideal to have this database, so that we could buy and listen to the REAL session file. Link to comment
firedog Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 16 minutes ago, wushuliu said: I'm not aware of sites that provide that kind of information for recordings that aren't niche audiophile-oriented. I think that when kumakuma said “sites that cater to audiophiles” that’s exactly what he was saying. So what’s your point? Teresa 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Brian Lucey Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 34 minutes ago, kumakuma said: You appear to be in VIOLENT AGREEMENT with most audiophiles. You'll find few people here or anywhere else in the audiophile community that want music released in DSD simply because the release format is DSD. We always want our music in the format that it was recorded in. This is why sites that cater to audiophiles usually provide technical information/session information on the recording that they sell. What sites? Where is this info? This should be our aim for all music. I see a majority of consumers, and many posts here, that are "higher rates better". Link to comment
mansr Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Just now, Brian Lucey said: Mics and pre amps are a choice, and ALL are colored. Even the clean ones have a color. Of course they do, and this is often advantageous. In this context, the important aspect is the frequency range. Few microphones capture much of anything above 30 kHz or so (we can't hear it, so why bother). On the reproduction end, speakers typically extend to 40 kHz at most, and might even have bad reactions to strong signals exceeding 30 kHz. To hear differences between 48 kHz and 96 kHz, let alone 192 kHz, sample rate that are genuine (pretending for sake of argument that this is at all possible), and not merely artefacts of the playback equipment, would require some very remarkable gear indeed. Link to comment
firedog Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Brian Lucey said: What sites? Where is this info? There are hi-res audiophile download sites that often give this information: acousticsounds.com, highresaudio.de, e-classical.com, nativedsd.com. Other classical oriented sites. And yes, I realize these are niche sites. For mainstream stuff you don’t get the info. Teresa 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now