A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[greenleo]

5 hours ago, Bricki said:

Getting the nuc into a fanless case is a very essential part of the recipe from my experience. I also think that the server plays a larger role than the proposed 80/20 ratio. At least this is true for me in my system running roon. 

The NUC is an endpoint connected to the DAC, correct?

What weighting would you give to the server other than the quoted figure 20?

 

Thank you.

[tapatrick]

7 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

Hi Bricki,

 

Like you I removed power from my server ssd, in my case, and booted using AL extreme ramboot. I host my files on four 512gb usb sticks hosted on a lpsu powered usb3.0 hub.

 

M

Hi M

Have you tried battery powering the USB hub? I'm thinking to give the USB hub a go for the albums I have which are not on Tidal, also to check the SQ. But don't have a 4th LPSU.

[rettib2001]

8 hours ago, Bricki said:

Nuc impressions

 

I now have my system completely diskless and fanless ... Roonserver on sonicTransporter i5 with no ssd or hdd just the ram on the board. My network is all supra cat8 with JSSG 360 to the endpoint nuc. My only way of powering my NUC and sonicTransporter i5 is with my sps-500 which has a furutech TCS-21 ac cable straight to the wall and a JSSG 360 "y" cable to nuc and sonicTransporter. 

 

Getting the nuc into a fanless case is a very essential part of the recipe from my experience. I also think that the server plays a larger role than the proposed 80/20 ratio. At least this is true for me in my system running roon. 

 

Yesterday I took the dormant ssd out of my sonicTransporter i5 and I wasn't expecting much of a difference. 

 

I spent the rest of the day listening to music and I was actually quite gobsmacked. The combination of AL extreme ramroot on both server and endpoint and getting rid of all disks on the motherboards with just ram plugged onto the board and nothing else on my network but a router and switch..... I think I now know what Larry and Roy mean by end game... It is the combination of all the changes and ticking all the boxes that got me here...attention to detail at every turn....one of the beauties of AL is getting rid of disks altogether.

 

For me, I didn't feel I was at end game until I got rid of the dormant ssd in my sonicTransporter, I totally underestimated the negative effect it was having, even though it wasn't even being used for os and wasn't even mounted as a drive. 

 

I encourage others to not judge the nuc/AL roonbridge combo until you at least get it into a fanless case ?

 

Happy listening everyone ?

 

 

Totally agree about removing the dormant ssd, I noticed an immediate improvement.

 

I'm planning to go headless for both the server and endpoint nucs I have but in the mean time a happy by-product of removing the ssd and its accompanying metal tray is that temps dropped! Win/win.

 

I also changed the thermal paste so now tidal tracks upsampled to dsd512 via Roon result in 60-65° cpu temps of the server side, granted not ice cool but waaaay better than 90°+.

[Bricki]

2 hours ago, greenleo said:

The NUC is an endpoint connected to the DAC, correct?

What weighting would you give to the server other than the quoted figure 20?

 

Thank you.

Yes my NUC7CJYH (roon bridge) is connected directly to my chord mojo by a curious usb with JSSG 360. 

 

I find it hard to put a number on it and I'm sure everyones system is different. However, from my experience with roon I would say that ignoring everything before the end point is a big mistake, your system will be hamstrung. I have made many changes before my endpoint and each one has been audible. Good Ethernet cables are essential and good power supplies are essential. I also have every device and power supply on my network treated with vibration isolation on the top and bottom of each chassis, over an entire system the difference is very significant. 

 

Things might change when the EtherRegen is released and perhaps the system before the EtherRegen won't matter as much or even at all. But as my system is right now, every part of it contributes to the sound (even the router and how it is powered). 

 

So in my case, my roon server matters a lot and can contribute significantly to the sound ? ??

[MrUnderhill]

1 hour ago, tapatrick said:

Hi M

Have you tried battery powering the USB hub? I'm thinking to give the USB hub a go for the albums I have which are not on Tidal, also to check the SQ. But don't have a 4th LPSU.

Hi Patrick,

 

No. The LMS server and attached hub live in my loft. The USB hub is powered by an R-Core LPSU via two LT3045s, so the power is pretty clean.

 

I have to say that the sound quality of the locally held files is a tad better than those streamed from Qobuz, mastering and file quality allowing.

 

M

[Bricki]

50 minutes ago, rettib2001 said:

Totally agree about removing the dormant ssd, I noticed an immediate improvement.

 

I'm planning to go headless for both the server and endpoint nucs I have but in the mean time a happy by-product of removing the ssd and its accompanying metal tray is that temps dropped! Win/win.

 

I also changed the thermal paste so now tidal tracks upsampled to dsd512 via Roon result in 60-65° cpu temps of the server side, granted not ice cool but waaaay better than 90°+.

The thing that surprised me when I removed the ssd was how much better the bass was. I was expecting perhaps slightly less treble glare. Glare was reduced significantly but everything was better across the entire frequency range. More space in the midrange and better control of every aspect of the presentation. Individual sounds are less blended together and minor details are heard far more easily 

[MrUnderhill]

2 minutes ago, Bricki said:

The thing that surprised me when I removed the ssd was how much better the bass was.

I do find bass quality very telling when i have made changes.

[Blackmorec]

On 12/8/2018 at 3:50 PM, austinpop said:

 

This was a quick test we ran, when I came to drop off Eric's SR-7. I brought my new i7 NUC with me so we could have a quick listen.

 

If you read my NUC impressions, I've made the point repeatedly that the NUC over the SE was a subtle improvement, which I heard in my system, only with my Dell running AL as the server, and a TLS OCXO switch in the path.

 

In Eric's system, we didn't have a reclocked switch in the path, and we ran the NUC from the bridged port of the SE running Roon Core with the 1.4.0 firmware.

 

In this configuration, the difference was indeed small. However, the key finding, that Eric agreed with, was that we were achieving essentially similar level of SQ on his system with a NUC costing 10% of his SE.

 

Finally, don't discount the benefit of the Tranquility Base. Whatever that thing does, it makes a positive impact on SQ. We've done an experiment in the past where we stacked up all his spaghetti in a neat wertical sandwich, and moved it on and off the Base. Damned if it didn't sound better.

I have a brand new Tranquility Base UEF 230V that I bought earlier in the year and eventually didn’t use. Includes 2 sets of MiG isolation footers. I bought it to use under spaghetti that I eventually ended up not buying

If anyone’s interested I’ll list it in the For Sale section

[mourip]

Has anyone experimented with creating a network bridge on their Roon server using two network cards and having one port connect directly to their endpoint and the other to their LAN/Internet? This would seem to have advantages over running through a switch?

 

I am going to try it myself but wondering if this is already a road well traveled. This is in the context of the Roon environment and does not include using HQPlayer in my case.

[kyrill]

hi Mourip. the bridging is how this thread started, the name "A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming" was referring to better sounding bridging.  Yes I and dozens of others did it like you mention. I bridged one NIC ( Ethernet port) of the NUC is with one NIC of the JCAT FEMTO  Ethernet card. The mobo NIC goes to my router for wifi and to contact my  android phone with the controlling player to steer the server. It is possible for Roon too, although it is one of their later developments. Maybe even started because of this "world famous"thread,

"

[lmitche]

16 minutes ago, mourip said:

Has anyone experimented with creating a network bridge on their Roon server using two network cards and having one port connect directly to their endpoint and the other to their LAN/Internet? This would seem to have advantages over running through a switch?

 

I am going to try it myself but wondering if this is already a road well traveled. This is in the context of the Roon environment and does not include using HQPlayer in my case.

Well sure, the original "novel way" tweak in this thread was about my network bridging post many years ago. Roy (Romaz) " bumped" this tweak here.

 

 

[afrancois]

15 hours ago, rickca said:

 

I'm evaluating on my main system with Focal Utopia III  Diablo speakers.

These have been my dream speakers for many years. Literally sound and vision. Beautiful to watch and lovely to listen to.

[mourip]

16 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Well sure, the original "novel way" tweak in this thread was about my network bridging post many years ago. Roy (Romaz) " bumped" this tweak here.

 

 

 

Thanks. I have been reading this thread for a long time but my memory is basically shot and now works on a FIFO basis. In CA audiophile dog years this would be the equivalent of uncovering one's ancestral roots in an African rift valley.

 

Seriously though. Thanks for the reply and all of the hard work here.

 

So I am now very far behind and even skipped a step. Are folks still using NIC bridging as their default setup or have later discoveries superseded/eclipsed it?

[LTG2010]

1 minute ago, mourip said:

So I am now very far behind and even skipped a step. Are folks still using NIC bridging as their default setup or have later discoveries superseded/eclipsed it?

Set up a bridge in audiolinux on my server here, my motherboard has the advantage of 2 ethernet ports clocked by an sclk-ex. NUC as endpoint. Works pretty well and is an improvement over endpoint connecting via my netgear gs105. Would like to try wireless connection next, to compare. would be nice if these latest NUC's had dual ethernet ports.

 

[lmitche]

26 minutes ago, mourip said:

Are folks still using NIC bridging as their default setup or have later discoveries superseded/eclipsed it?

Over here , there is a collection of 4 LT3045 powered modified switches from Cisco, and Netgear gathering dust.

 

At this point in time a Linksys RE9000 network extender connects one of it's 5gz radios to my main wifi router with a wired connection to my server and uses a separate 5ghz radio to my NUC endpoint. I disabled the included 2.4 GHz radio.

 

This solution sounds great for now, but I expect it will be replaced with a new Ethernet Regen when available at which time a network bridge will be configured on the server and used between the extender and EtherRegen.

[LTG2010]

9 minutes ago, lmitche said:

At this point in time a Linksys RE9000 network extender connects one of it's 5gz radios to my main wifi router with a wired connection to my server

Hi Larry,

Is your server now the big i7 7700 machine or a second NUC?

Alec

[lmitche]

13 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Hi Larry,

Is your server now the big i7 7700 machine or a second NUC?

Alec

LOL, both actually, in constantly changing permutations and roles!

 

The server configuration still matters, even with the wireless isolation, here.

 

It's a I7-6700k, z270 machine to be precise.

[elpampeano]

I made a mistake the first time that i setup the endpoint in Ramboot, I was listening in standard mode. Now go to Extreme and the difference in transparency and speed is amazing. Plus, my Nuc barely gets warm Even after 5 hours of unstop playing. 

[Blake]

3 hours ago, afrancois said:

These have been my dream speakers for many years. Literally sound and vision. Beautiful to watch and lovely to listen to.

 

Off Topic:  The Music Room has brand new Diablo III's at 50% off (very tempting).

 

Back to Topic:  Larry makes a great point- it seems one area of reported improvement with the NUC+AL solution is with respect to improved soundstaging/imaging/layering.  Headphones have great qualities, but in terms of revealing soundstaging/imaging/layering, headphones cannot even begin to compare to speakers which excel in terms of those sonic aspects, that are properly positioned in an acoustically treated room, particularly in a more "nearfield" setup. Of course, certain speaker types which are jammed against the wall (unless specifically designed to be placed there), will also be deficient. 

 

If a reviewer is only using headphones, I personally take this into account when considering reviews.  Optimally, a reviewer should use both headphones and speakers.

 

As such, I would think that NUC+AL differences may not be as dramatic for headphone users.

 

 

 

 

[Advieira]

I have a curiosity, even to evaluate the progress of the improvements achieved in this topic.
Comparing the first direct connected server of the first post (Jan/17) from @romaz and @austinpop  and the latest find, Nuc (AudioLinux), what is the level of improvement, comparing both?

 

I meant, the latest chain is a lot simplified as the firsts. How do they compare?

[seeteeyou]

18 hours ago, Bricki said:

I am only using tidal streaming for now until I figure out how to get some of my favourite music that isn't on tidal somewhere on my network that isn't going to have have a negative impact.... I am thinking of trying to put a small number of tracks on a usb stick plugged into my router... 

 

9 hours ago, Bricki said:

Things might change when the EtherRegen is released and perhaps the system before the EtherRegen won't matter as much or even at all. But as my system is right now, every part of it contributes to the sound (even the router and how it is powered).

 

Now that NUC7CJYH only costs 699 RMB and fanless case Newton JC should be roughly 40 quids a piece, it might not be THAT crazy to get one NUC as router / as NAS / as BubbleUPnP Server / as OpenHome UPnP Media Renderer respectively. Granted the server itself could be substituted with something more powerful than Celeron J4005, we still have to figure out how to provide the "right" power source for that particular machine.

 

A123 LiFePO4 batteries are well known for their quality, that's why Ian Canada's latest project might do the trick when we're powering multiple units of NUC

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/327105-develop-ultra-capacitor-power-supply-lifepo4-battery-power-supply-31.html#post5623486

 

Scripts to configure an Intel NUC to act as a router
https://github.com/nokia/intel-nuc-router

 

Rockstor on the Intel NUC
http://rockstor.com/blog/tutorials/rockstor-on-the-intel-nuc/

 

BTW, it's interesting that even fiber NICs could be added to NUC via USB

 

https://winyao.aliexpress.com/store/group/USB-Fiber-Nics/2785116_510561025.html

[MrUnderhill]

20 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

Some Listening Impressions - NUC to Akasa Case:

 

I immediately noticed an improved bass - always a good sign.

There is an improvement in the detail. For instance, backing singers are just that bit more separated from the backing musicians. Fine details, such as cymbal work and strings have more definition - which I genuinely didn't think was possible.

 

I feel that there is an improvement in the macro dynamics ..... BUT, I have a sneaking suspicion this may be due to the memory config. This is all still running with the default memory config. I will start playing with the Squeezelite config tomorrow.

 

For info - temp:

Squeezelite - Core 0 & 1 = 41C

LMS - Core 0 = 48C & Core 1 = 45C

 

M

 

One thing I forgot to mention was reverb and resonance, this took a nice step forward.

 

This morning I added the -b 2GB : 2GB to the parameters; result? As before an very slight edge left, the resonance deepened and the bass popped even more.

 

One of my review lists includes Slave to the Rythm, wow. When abov I say the bass pops I mean that it exhibits real depth and starts and stops, but the resonances it produces just go on, and on. Where before I may have got a feel now I am just sitting with a big grin.

 

Later on I played Rite of Spring, it was not just that I was listening to the instruments it was as though I could feel them.

 

And yet to get to this was not a one change process. It has been the culmination of a lot of small steps that has allowed me to see this end point (??) in part, but never has it all come together like this.

 

I have some more PoE stuff arriving in teh not too distant future, i wonder whether things can be stretched that bit more?

 

Thanks to the usual suspects here - bloody marvelous!!

 

M

[mikicasellas]

 

I have just purchased my NUC7CJYH...

 

I am trying to figure which RAM are you guys using for this NUC with best results:

 

- Would it accept the 16GB or only 8?

- Crucial DDR4 2400 SODIMM - CT4G4SFS824A CAS Latency 17

- CORSAIR Vengeance Performance SO-DIMM DDR4 2400 (PC4 19200) CAS Latency 16

- Crucial Ballistix Sport LT DDR4 SODIMM @ 2400 MHz, CAS Latency 16

- Kingston HyperX Impact DDR4 SODIMM @ 2400 MHz, CAS Latency 14

 

Thanks!!

 

Miki

[User471]

On 1/5/2017 at 10:02 PM, hopkins said:

I set it up in Linux, with an Intel board running RoonServer and a RaspberryPi running RoonBridge. Took me two minutes.

 

Both have fixed IP addresses set on my router.

 

On the Intel board (Ubuntu in my case):

apt-get install bridge-utils

 

then in /etc/network/interfaces:

auto lo br0

iface lo inet loopback

iface br0 inet dhcp

bridge_ports eth0 eth1

 

Done ! Works, but have not spend time listening yet

 

I have a linux based roonserver and a separate linux based endpoint both connected via the same Netgear unmanaged switch (with an iFi PSU)

 

All built and setup by me, so I have some linux skills ? (mostly being able to Google a solution and use SSH, to be honest)

 

So I'm going to be thick here  .... apologies

 

What is being advocated here is to have x2 ethernet connections to my server - one direct to the switch; one direct to my endpoint

 

Then I install bridge-utils (I'm on Debian 9), edit /etc/network/interfaces and .... hey presto !?!?

 

[bit01]

2 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

 

I have just purchased my NUC7CJYH...

 

I am trying to figure which RAM are you guys using for this NUC with best results:

 

- Would it accept the 16GB or only 8?

- Crucial DDR4 2400 SODIMM - CT4G4SFS824A CAS Latency 17

- CORSAIR Vengeance Performance SO-DIMM DDR4 2400 (PC4 19200) CAS Latency 16

- Crucial Ballistix Sport LT DDR4 SODIMM @ 2400 MHz, CAS Latency 16

- Kingston HyperX Impact DDR4 SODIMM @ 2400 MHz, CAS Latency 14

 

Thanks!!

 

Miki

HyperX may be problematic - one of two 4GB modules did not work on my NUCPJYH

You can check compatibility on the Intel website:

http://compatibleproducts.intel.com/ProductDetails/ExportPeripheralInfo?moduleName=Intel® NUC&productType=Kits&productName=Intel® NUC Kit NUC7CJYH&_ga=2.125155594.1476626844.1544475184-1433329163.1544142796#