A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Johnseye]

13 hours ago, austinpop said:

My NUC Impressions - Part 2

 

Shortly after I posted my initial NUC impressions yesterday, FedEx and DHL dropped off the last of the parts for my own NUC. Let me back up. The day after I received Roy's loaner NUC, which happened to be Cyber Monday, and having heard it in my system, I decided to go ahead and order my own. Since the NUC7CJYH was sold out everywhere, and since Roy (and then Larry) has mentioned how they found the NUC7i7DNBE to sound even better, I went ahead and ordered the NUC7i7DNBE with the classy looking Akasa Plato X7D case. I'm glad I did, as it seems to be backordered now.

 

First - I must tell you the Plato X7D case is stunning in its look and feel. I have to admit I had some trepidation about how the build would go. I'm not a system builder, and although I was comfortable about the general process, having seen the video @Middy posted a few days ago on this thread, I was paranoid I'd get the thermal paste application wrong. Larry and Roy were helpful in their advice, and in the end, the build was fairly easy, even for a first timer. Even after a whole day of running AL Extreme, CPU temp is stable around 40ºC, so I guess the paste went on properly! Plus, I think this case is outstanding for heat dissipation. I suppose it helps that I have absolutely no additional devices other than what's on the original mobo. I tuned the BIOS as described in the tuning thread.

 

So how does it sound? Wow, this i7 NUC is quite a nice step up in SQ! Roy and Larry were spot on, as usual. Even cold - I'm sure even NUCs need some breaking in - it sounds stunning.

 

Holding everything else constant, and powering both NUCs (CJYH and i7DNBE) with a 12V SR7 DR rail, I was not expecting as big a difference as I heard. These are just initial impressions, but here's what I'm hearing on the i7 compared to the Celeron:

• A hint more dynamic, but dynamics are not the biggest difference
• Richer, creamier sound
• More coherent, better texture and timbre
• fuller and denser
• a bit more authority on the low end
• double bass lines better articulated
• a larger image.

In short, even more of the good stuff. I am so pleased with this purchase! My Zenith SE is on its way to its proud new owner, and now this handsome Plato X7D-encased NUC is a worthy replacement and improvement, at a fraction of the cost.

 

At this point, I just can't stop listening to the music, and so will take a break from all the tweaking and tuning. Eventually, I will dabble with a different/better server than my generic Dell desktop, and of course, I look forward to the "clash of the switches!" 

 

But until then, this truly is approaching endgame for the digital transport chain. And I don't say that lightly.

 

The 12v rail is powering it with no issue?  I know you listen to a lot of DSD so assuming no issues there.  I'm going to have to give this a shot.

 

I finally got a 2.5mm lead for my sPS-500 from Ghent.  Those sPS connectors are a pain to find and shipping from China takes weeks.  At 19v my mITX board will power up but it ends up failing during ramroot.  Not enough amps it seems.  I tried at 12v as well and no dice.  If I move my 19v SR7 rail back to the mITX board I can use the SR7's 12v DR rail for the NUC.  I just need to find another 2.5mm lead for the SR7 with the Jager connector.

 

[austinpop]

4 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

The 12v rail is powering it with no issue?  I know you listen to a lot of DSD so assuming no issues there.  I'm going to have to give this a shot.

 

I finally got a 2.5mm lead for my sPS-500 from Ghent.  Those sPS connectors are a pain to find and shipping from China takes weeks.  At 19v my mITX board will power up but it ends up failing during ramroot.  Not enough amps it seems.  I tried at 12v as well and no dice.  If I move my 19v SR7 rail back to the mITX board I can use the SR7's 12v DR rail for the NUC.  I just need to find another 2.5mm lead for the SR7 with the Jager connector.

 

 

No issues at all. Roy has said 19V sounds even better, so that would be the only rationale to try it.

 

Yeah I listen to DSD too, but it's not transcoded in any way, just transported as DoP, which is minimal processing.

[Forehaven]

Given the recent discussion of turn key NUCs vs. building your own.  I put myself in the latter category, so I decided to be an early supporter of Larry's NUCkleheadaudio.com.  There was no way I could ever do this on my own.  I wasn't sure about this NUC business at first, Larry wisely convinced me to try one.  I trusted him b/c he helped me build my big server machine, cable and power upgrades.

 

When the NUC arrived, I was blown away by adding this streamer to the system.  Prior I was using the big machine for both server and renderer.  For me, it was worth every dollar.  So I'm glad companies like Nuckleheadaudio and now TLS are offering plug n play NUCs.  Yes, it's more spendy, but for people like myself who are 'computer coding disabled', I'm happy to pay the premium.  

 

Just my perspective guys

Chris   

[mozes]

11 hours ago, greenleo said:

Suppose the best SQ is 10, what is the score for the 7CJYH?  It would be great if the SQ of the NUCs using the stock PSU are described as well.  SR7 is an unobtainaium and the queue takes at least a year.  Hence the SQ of the NUCs being powered by a lesser PSU would be very useful.

Great point! That's why I decided to go with the 7CJYH because I intend to power it with a LPS-1.2.

If I went with the i7 based powerful NUCs then I would be forced to use a lesser quality PSU.  

[lmitche]

27 minutes ago, mozes said:

Great point! That's why I decided to go with the 7CJYH because I intend to power it with a LPS-1.2.

If I went with the i7 based powerful NUCs then I would be forced to use a lesser quality PSU.  

Listening to my NUC7CJYH in a new fanless case powered by an lps1.2 over the weekend, made me fall in love with the sound all over again.

[mozes]

2 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Listening to my NUC7CJYH over the weekend powered by an lps1.2, I fell in love with the sound all over again.

This makes me feel better

[yellowblue]

@Imitche, @mozes, why did you choose the NUC7CJYH over the Pentium NUC7PJYH?

[lmitche]

6 minutes ago, yellowblue said:

@Imitche, @mozes, why did you choose the NUC7CJYH over the Pentium NUC7PJYH?

Didn't, I have both, actually all three models, i7 quad too, here.

 

Great, better and best!

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, mozes said:

Great point! That's why I decided to go with the 7CJYH because I intend to power it with a LPS-1.2.

If I went with the i7 based powerful NUCs then I would be forced to use a lesser quality PSU.  

 

It's an excuse to get a better quality PSU

[lmitche]

26 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

It's an excuse to get a better quality PSU

Several obtainable higher current lpsus are expected in the next few weeks for testing with the i7. Stay tuned.

[mozes]

1 hour ago, yellowblue said:

@Imitche, @mozes, why did you choose the NUC7CJYH over the Pentium NUC7PJYH?

I actually went with NUC7PJYH because it was available.

[jean-michel6]

17 hours ago, austinpop said:

My NUC Impressions - Part 2

 

Shortly after I posted my initial NUC impressions yesterday, FedEx and DHL dropped off the last of the parts for my own NUC. Let me back up. The day after I received Roy's loaner NUC, which happened to be Cyber Monday, and having heard it in my system, I decided to go ahead and order my own. Since the NUC7CJYH was sold out everywhere, and since Roy (and then Larry) has mentioned how they found the NUC7i7DNBE to sound even better, I went ahead and ordered the NUC7i7DNBE with the classy looking Akasa Plato X7D case. I'm glad I did, as it seems to be backordered now.

 

First - I must tell you the Plato X7D case is stunning in its look and feel. I have to admit I had some trepidation about how the build would go. I'm not a system builder, and although I was comfortable about the general process, having seen the video @Middy posted a few days ago on this thread, I was paranoid I'd get the thermal paste application wrong. Larry and Roy were helpful in their advice, and in the end, the build was fairly easy, even for a first timer. Even after a whole day of running AL Extreme, CPU temp is stable around 40ºC, so I guess the paste went on properly! Plus, I think this case is outstanding for heat dissipation. I suppose it helps that I have absolutely no additional devices other than what's on the original mobo. I tuned the BIOS as described in the tuning thread.

 

So how does it sound? Wow, this i7 NUC is quite a nice step up in SQ! Roy and Larry were spot on, as usual. Even cold - I'm sure even NUCs need some breaking in - it sounds stunning.

 

Holding everything else constant, and powering both NUCs (CJYH and i7DNBE) with a 12V SR7 DR rail, I was not expecting as big a difference as I heard. These are just initial impressions, but here's what I'm hearing on the i7 compared to the Celeron:

• A hint more dynamic, but dynamics are not the biggest difference
• Richer, creamier sound
• More coherent, better texture and timbre
• fuller and denser
• a bit more authority on the low end
• double bass lines better articulated
• a larger image.

In short, even more of the good stuff. I am so pleased with this purchase! My Zenith SE is on its way to its proud new owner, and now this handsome Plato X7D-encased NUC is a worthy replacement and improvement, at a fraction of the cost.

 

At this point, I just can't stop listening to the music, and so will take a break from all the tweaking and tuning. Eventually, I will dabble with a different/better server than my generic Dell desktop, and of course, I look forward to the "clash of the switches!" 

 

But until then, this truly is approaching endgame for the digital transport chain. And I don't say that lightly.

I did see that you have order 8GB ram for your intel nuc as endpoint .

Does the possibility to have a larger buffer in squeezelite when compared to a 4GB ram  has a noticable increase of SQ or does 4GB will be sufficient for endpoint .

[greenleo]

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

Listening to my NUC7CJYH in a new fanless case powered by an lps1.2 over the weekend, made me fall in love with the sound all over again.

Is this fanless case the Newton JC or another one?

[LTG2010]

1 hour ago, mozes said:

I actually went with NUC7PJYH because it was available.

Am powering mine with a Sean Jacobs 12V 1.5amp rail sound is sublime, all the usual audiophile phrases and more.

Was struggling to get the tonality of my server back, thinking 1.5 amps would not be enough as I have a single 8gb RAM, had initially powered it with my sPS500, the sound was good but missing warmth and bass punch.

I reduced the power settings and increased the temperature the fan kicks in and finally the WOW! moment most have been talking about arrived.

 

[Dutch]

@LTG2010, interesting! Do you remember the power settings you ended with?

[LTG2010]

5 minutes ago, Dutch said:

interesting! Do you remember the power settings you ended with?

They are at 8 - 8, I was a bit over cautious I think they should work with 10 - 10, I have to keep moving back and forth to a TV in another room as my monitor is not compatible. I think it best to keep both settings constant so the CPU frequency doesn't fluctuate. Also I set the fan not to kick in until 60 degrees ( or the maximum the slider went ) as I have not changed the case yet.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, jean-michel6 said:

I did see that you have order 8GB ram for your intel nuc as endpoint .

Does the possibility to have a larger buffer in squeezelite when compared to a 4GB ram  has a noticable increase of SQ or does 4GB will be sufficient for endpoint .

 

If you want to play with squeezelite buffers, then 8GB will give you more flexibility. 4GB will not leave you much space in RAM.

 

When I did the buffer size experiment (check back in this thread) the larger sizes did make a difference. On the other hand, if you need to stick to 4GB enable powering with an LPS-1.2, it's a different equation. You just have to pick the best compromise.

 

I will say that on Roy's 4GB NUC, I was able to trim down the size of the root partition (see my Tips and Tricks post on the other thread) on my USB stick to where I could try a 1GB buffer (-b 524288:524288), and it is still an improvement over the default.

[jean-michel6]

6 hours ago, lmitche said:

Didn't, I have both, actually all three models, i7 quad too, here.

 

Great, better and best!

Since you have all three , a tricky question

 

It is fun to experiment in this hobby but at the end it is costly .

I am hesitating between the pentium and the i7. Cost wise the gap is very significant. But sq wise how you will qualify the gap between Celeron, pentium an then i7 ?

 

I told you it was a tricky question

 

[lmitche]

Just now, jean-michel6 said:

Since you have all three , a tricky question

 

It is fun to experiment in this hobby but at the end it is costly .

I am hesitating between the pentium and the i7. Cost wise the gap is very significant. But sq wise how you will qualify the gap between Celeron, pentium an then i7 ?

 

I told you it was a tricky question

 

I've said too much already. 

[mozes]

4 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

Am powering mine with a Sean Jacobs 12V 1.5amp rail sound is sublime, all the usual audiophile phrases and more.

Was struggling to get the tonality of my server back, thinking 1.5 amps would not be enough as I have a single 8gb RAM, had initially powered it with my sPS500, the sound was good but missing warmth and bass punch.

I reduced the power settings and increased the temperature the fan kicks in and finally the WOW! moment most have been talking about arrived.

 

Thanks for the info, very useful. I will see when I set it up what PSU works the best.

[the_doc735]

On 12/5/2018 at 6:50 AM, austinpop said:

 

I commend your zeal, but honestly, you are tilting at the wrong windmill here.

 

The Linear Solution are a small company and hardly the Big Bad Corporation, and their products are quite fairly priced for what they deliver. As others have already pointed out, many people are not up for DIY solutions, and are willing to pay for a polished product with full support. And if you look at the DS-1, Adrian tells me they have managed to get OCXO clocking on all the clocks - system, USB, and Ethernet.

 

Of course, claims are one thing, and the proof of the pudding will be in the hearing. I spent nearly $800 for my i7 NUC, and I had to assemble it myself, futz with AL, the BIOS and all that. I am fine doing it. But if a $1599 product comes along that delivers it turnkey AND potentially delivers more SQ - TBD, I hasten to add - then I am perfectly cool with that.

@austinpop

If this was marginly 'better' than the NUC/AL, would I pay $1599 ? No! I always prefer the biggest bang for the buck and at the moment it looks like that would be a NUC. Expensive "diminishing returns" items like the DS-1 don't really float my boat. Paying more and more and more for devices that give less and less and less 'improvement'   ....well, I can't justify that expenditure. Once the massive leap has been had for a more than reasonable price, my interest starts to wane. Not really interested in the bleeding edge because for one reason alone, next year it will be old news and DOWN in price as the next small step arrives. Case in point: already we see the DS-1 "at a price!" superseding the cheapo NUC/AL even though the NUC/AL has still to reach the pinnacle of sales. I am only a small tweaker at heart and tire easily of the process and I think conclusions could be drawn already from the extensive discussion here? I don't need POLISHED products with all the so called back up, warranty, fancy looks etc; just as long as it is fairly turnkey friendly I am happy. I quite like military/functional looks, robust, aggressive, plain and ugly gear. Stuff that looks like it belongs on tour, in a rack, on stage, in a studio, ratrod. My friend john wood builds great valve amps (IMHO) and he always says: "I'm only interested on what's on the inside, how it works, how it performs, who gives a stuff what it looks like, you can have any colour you want as long as it's black". Suits me fine! That is of course just my preference, as you say "some simply want the turnkey, one button press, polished end products, without the tinkering". I have nothing against anyone who likes these finished products in terms of digital age technology. All my different speakers and amps are finished products but again I'm not bothered about a finished appearance, they can be scratched, chipped, dented - who cares? - just makes them more affordable (£). Cheers! I think I will mark it as off topic, just in case it is getting away from the main topic of discussion.

[the_doc735]

6 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

Am powering mine with a Sean Jacobs 12V 1.5amp rail sound is sublime, all the usual audiophile phrases and more.

Was struggling to get the tonality of my server back, thinking 1.5 amps would not be enough as I have a single 8gb RAM, had initially powered it with my sPS500, the sound was good but missing warmth and bass punch.

I reduced the power settings and increased the temperature the fan kicks in and finally the WOW! moment most have been talking about arrived.

Do you mean this Sean Jacobs or someone else?

sean jacobs (click link).

Cheers!

[tapatrick]

14 hours ago, Forehaven said:

It just takes a bit of tweaking to get the side case off.  Not hard at all.

just slightly pull out the sides with the ports so that they can slip free, up and out.

[LTG2010]

38 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

Do you mean this Sean Jacobs or someone else?

Yes it's a custom multi rail build based on DC3. 

[davide256]

Anyone else here tried overclocked RPI3B+ with AL using LPS 1.2 as Roon endpoint? I'm not finding NUC7PJYH to be a winner vs RPI3.

NUC7PJYH is better in high frequencies  but not as life like in midrange/bass/dynamics as the RPI3 is.

I have been able to run NUC7PJYH off LPS 1.2 after tweaking peripheral hardware support, fan kick in speed, etc.

Still looking for a next step that gets the highs right but doesn't lose what RPI3 provides.

Very much enjoying the life that has been breathed back into a lot of 60's and early 70's recordings