A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I think you misunderstood. I compared an actual UltraRendu vs. the sMS-200ultra. 

 

Hang on ... (refers to index) .. here is the report: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=742958

 

 

Noted, so that’s what you meant by indirectly - ie not comparing at the same time with NUC/AL. Relying on memory isn’t ideal but better than nothing obviously.

 

 

[austinpop]

3 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Noted, so that’s what you meant by indirectly - ie not comparing at the same time with NUC/AL. Relying on memory isn’t ideal but better than nothing obviously.

 

 

 

It's associative, though. Let's say UR+LPS-1 is A.

• I compared A to B, found B better
• compared B to C, found C better
• compared C to D, found D better
• compared D to E, found E better
• compared E to F, found F better.

If F is the NUC/AL, then yes I have never compared F to A directly. Based on the comparison history above, do I feel motivated to?

 

No.

[asdf1000]

13 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Based on the comparison history above, do I feel motivated to?

 

No.

 

Hehe noted. The same feeling I struggled with, when buying and setting up AL and moving NUC from server to endpoint.

 

Quite the pain in the a$$ indeed but good to say I tried it and move on.

 

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hehe noted. The same feeling I struggled with, when buying and setting up AL and moving NUC from server to endpoint.

 

Quite the pain in the a$$ indeed but good to say I tried it and move on.

 

How was the SQ jump from your microidsd to idsd pro? Did you document that anywhere?

[asdf1000]

17 minutes ago, lmitche said:

How was the SQ jump from your microidsd to idsd pro? Did you document that anywhere?

 

No, never wrote about it anywhere. It was the jump in SQ I expected for the price difference for sure. 

 

It's one of the least sensitive USB inputs (sensitivity to upstream 'stuff') I've come across, comparing to some Chord DACs, DirectStream DAC and a few others... Before that gets mis-interpreted, a couple very important notes:

 

Important note #1: That's purely a comment about USB input sensitivity - not a comment on overall SQ/performance comparisons to those DACs...

 

Important note #2: Least sensitive does not mean immune to upstream changes. I think we're all still waiting for that immune DAC. Pro iDSD is very good in that area though.

 

 

[lmitche]

4 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

It's associative, though. Let's say UR+LPS-1 is A.

• I compared A to B, found B better
• compared B to C, found C better
• compared C to D, found D better
• compared D to E, found E better
• compared E to F, found F better.

If F is the NUC/AL, then yes I have never compared F to A directly. Based on the comparison history above, do I feel motivated to?

 

No.

From:

 

http://www.mathwords.com/t/transitive_property_inequalities.htm

 

Transitive Property of Inequalities

 

Any of the following properties:

If a < b and b < c , then a < c.
If a ≤ b and b ≤ c , then a ≤ c. 
If a > b and b > c , then a > c.
If a ≥ b and b ≥ c , then a ≥ c.

 

Note: This is a property of equality and inequalities.

 

One must be cautious, however, when attempting to develop arguments using the transitive property in other settings.

 

Here is an example of an unsound application of the transitive property: "Team A defeated team B, and team B defeated team C. Therefore, team A will defeat team C."

[lmitche]

26 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

No, never wrote about it anywhere. It was the jump in SQ I expected for the price difference for sure. 

 

It's one of the least sensitive USB inputs (sensitivity to upstream 'stuff') I've come across, comparing to some Chord DACs, DirectStream DAC and a few others... Before that gets mis-interpreted, a couple very important notes:

 

Important note #1: That's purely a comment about USB input sensitivity - not a comment on overall SQ/performance comparisons to those DACs...

 

Important note #2: Least sensitive does not mean immune to upstream changes. I think we're all still waiting for that immune DAC. Pro iDSD is very good in that area though.

 

 

Thanks, you saw where I was going.

 

Did you happen to compare the microidsd bl vs. the idsd pro with the NUC/Al combo?

[asdf1000]

25 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Thanks, you saw where I was going.

 

Did you happen to compare the microidsd bl vs. the idsd pro with the NUC/Al combo?

 

No. I could say since Pro iDSD is better than micro iDSD BL (to my ears) with Rendu source, and since Rendu is better than NUC/AL, I could connect the dots...

 

But I never had everything at the same time to compare, so my comments wouldn't be valid...

[MrUnderhill]

5 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

I've now compared both. I know Larry has said he's never had an ultraRendu in his system (although he prefers his ISO REGEN + LPS-1.2 on the output of his NUC..).

 

How about you - have you compared with an ultraRendu?

 

I have, after I compared the uR to the SOtM ultra stack .....and preferred the dCS Network Bridge to them both.

 

For me the AL/NUC beats all the others, dCS included. BUT, I am playing PCM rips and Qobuz streams. I don't upsample. I have played with it many times over many years, but I find that what I gain on the swings I lose on the roundabouts and so have preferred to leave things as they are, even with HQPlayer.

 

I think your observations are interesting and will be interested to see if others replicate your results; science in action.

 

P.S. I have now sold my uR & LPS-1. I also found that in my new setup the Iso Regen and IFI widgets were more a hindrance than a help, and so I have much simplified my USB chain, resulting in simplification AND better sound quality - result!

[asdf1000]

15 minutes ago, MrUnderhill said:

I have much simplified my USB chain, resulting in simplification AND better sound quality - result!

 

I agree... I wrote in the 'other' less moderated and similar titled thread:

 

"I'm of the belief that there is no free lunch with anything in this hobby - you can't keep adding components (and their PSU's...) to the chain without some trade-off... You're adding more noise/RF sources.

 

Of course, part of the fun of this hobby of ours is finding that perfect balance between lowest box count and sound quality that makes us happy. Finding that optimal ratio that satisfies our ear/brain system..."

 

 

[mozes]

4 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

It's associative, though. Let's say UR+LPS-1 is A.

• I compared A to B, found B better
• compared B to C, found C better
• compared C to D, found D better
• compared D to E, found E better
• compared E to F, found F better.

Audiophile algebra

[greenleo]

On 12/2/2018 at 6:05 AM, rickca said:

How exactly did you prepare your flash drive?  Will it boot on any other computer you have?

 

On a Windows 10 system, I downloaded the .gz file, extracted the .img file using 7-zip, then used etcher (which is dead simple) to put the .img file on the flash drive.  I don't have a NUC yet, so I booted it on my Macbook Pro to make sure I had a bootable image.

No need to unzip/extract through 7-zip if RUFUS was being used.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

I agree... I wrote in the 'other' less moderated and similar titled thread:

 

"I'm of the belief that there is no free lunch with anything in this hobby - you can't keep adding components (and their PSU's...) to the chain without some trade-off... You're adding more noise/RF sources.

 

Of course, part of the fun of this hobby of ours is finding that perfect balance between lowest box count and sound quality that makes us happy. Finding that optimal ratio that satisfies our ear/brain system..."

 

 

You wrote above that you are using the roon best practice of isolation between server and streamer. Is this John Swensons ground shunted netgear switch or similiar?

[lmitche]

7 minutes ago, lmitche said:

You wrote above that you are using the roon best practice of isolation between server and streamer. Is this John Swensons ground shunted netgear switch or similiar?

Sorry, I just saw that you documented your use of the Swenson ground shunt technique above. 

[RickyV]

11 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Here is my NUC7i7DNHE in a Plato X7D fanless case, using their stock/included thermal paste...

 

Running Roon Server on the same machine too, at the same time of course...

 

Look carefully below at the filter used at DSD512.

 

Obviously the “xtr-2s” filter is not an option with this NUC at DSD512 but it’s fine for DSD256.

 

This is after running for a few hours at DSD512:

 

 

 

 

Hi em2016,

I am in process of choosing a dual nuc setup. When choosing your nuc did you consider the nuc7i7beh? The nuc7i7beh is 100 bugs cheaper, better CPU but a tdp 28w. 

The NUC7i7DNHE has tdp of 15w and the tdp configurable. Less tdp  power is better?

Also I am not sure if I should get the same nuc as a streamer.

[asdf1000]

20 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Sorry, I just saw that you documented your use of the Swenson ground shunt technique above. 

 

All good.

[asdf1000]

21 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Hi em2016,

I am in process of choosing a dual nuc setup. When choosing your nuc did you consider the nuc7i7beh? The nuc7i7beh is 100 bugs cheaper, better CPU but a tdp 28w. 

The NUC7i7DNHE has tdp of 15w and the tdp configurable. Less tdp  power is better?

Also I am not sure if I should get the same nuc as a streamer.

 

Hi RickyV

 

No I didn't consider another NUC.

 

The NUC7i7DNHE can be easily put into an Akasa fanless case so that was an easy decision for me.

 

I'm not sure how easy/hard it is to put the NUC7i7BEH in a fanless case - never looked into it.

 

For the endpoint / NAA end, USB cable connected to the DAC, the below is recommended by Jussi of HQPlayer and comes already in a fanless case. It is ultra low in power consumption... Mine is happily powered by 5Vdc 900mA...

 

https://up-shop.org/home/81-up-gws01w4g-memory32g-emmc-boardwo-vesa-plate.html

 

You can run whatever you want on it - DietPi, Volumio, AudioLinux, HQPlayer bootable images, whatever

 

[mourip]

2 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

I have, after I compared the uR to the SOtM ultra stack .....and preferred the dCS Network Bridge to them both.

 

For me the AL/NUC beats all the others, dCS included. BUT, I am playing PCM rips and Qobuz streams. I don't upsample. I have played with it many times over many years, but I find that what I gain on the swings I lose on the roundabouts and so have preferred to leave things as they are, even with HQPlayer.

 

I think your observations are interesting and will be interested to see if others replicate your results; science in action.

 

P.S. I have now sold my uR & LPS-1. I also found that in my new setup the Iso Regen and IFI widgets were more a hindrance than a help, and so I have much simplified my USB chain, resulting in simplification AND better sound quality - result!

 

Now that I am experimenting with AL/NUC I am finding myself reevaluating everything about my system and considering things that I have bypassed previously.

 

One of the obvious ones is HQPlayer which I have never used. I tend to play files at their native resolution, not use DSD, and am limited to 24/192 by my DAC. Is there anything that HQPlayer would offer me?

[asdf1000]

32 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Sorry, I just saw that you documented your use of the Swenson ground shunt technique above. 

 

Actually no manual shunting was needed by me...

 

The NetGear GS108 is happily powered by 7.5Vdc.. so this comes in handy (it's already internally grounded):

 

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/uptone-branded-7-5v-4-8a-36w-smps-with-internal-ground-shunt

 

[lmitche]

8 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Actually no manual shunting was needed by me...

 

The NetGear GS108 is happily powered by 7.5Vdc.. so this comes in handy (it's already internally grounded):

 

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/uptone-branded-7-5v-4-8a-36w-smps-with-internal-ground-shunt

 

Lol, I have a collection of GS108, FS105, and Cisco 2960-8 switches all modified  and powered by serial LT3045s. They are all sitting on the shelf.

 

I am very pleased with the 5ghz  NUC wifi connection. All my gear is on the top floor, with a 5 ghz wifi extender, so there is isolation from the cable modem and main router in the same way. A Linksys RE9000 MU-MIMO WiFi Extender has been a great and very stable addition. It has one wired connection to the server. It is powered by an lps and has emosystems isolators between it and the server. Overkill probably but sounds great!

 

My next move will be an EtherRegen.

[RickyV]

32 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hi RickyV

 

No I didn't consider another NUC.

 

The NUC7i7DNHE can be easily put into an Akasa fanless case so that was an easy decision for me.

 

I'm not sure how easy/hard it is to put the NUC7i7BEH in a fanless case - never looked into it.

 

For the endpoint / NAA end, USB cable connected to the DAC, the below is recommended by Jussi of HQPlayer and comes already in a fanless case. It is ultra low in power consumption... Mine is happily powered by 5Vdc 900mA...

 

https://up-shop.org/home/81-up-gws01w4g-memory32g-emmc-boardwo-vesa-plate.html

 

You can run whatever you want on it - DietPi, Volumio, AudioLinux, HQPlayer bootable images, whatever

 

Thanks,

 

For the streamer i am probably gonna follow @lmitche recommendations, the more powerful nuc the better.

[lmitche]

5 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Thanks,

 

For the streamer i am probably gonna follow @lmitche recommendations, the more powerful nuc the better.

Yes, but consider trying low power mode as well as normal power mode. Turbo and hyperthreading are also optional.

[seeteeyou]

For those of us who don't mind paying for a premium, they've got a fanless barebone / complete system with June Canyon here

 

https://www.cirrus7.com/mini-desktop/cirrus7-nimbini-v2-gemini-edition.html

 

Other models are also available if our wallets were fat enough

 

https://www.cirrus7.com/produkte/cirrus7-nimbini-v2/overview

 

 

 

[LTG2010]

Gone full circle here; started off with pc/microrendu then discovered benefits of bridge mode, then sMS 200 ultra, followed by custom slk-ex server, improvements each time.

Could'nt get the AL/NUC to sound better than my server direct to DAC. whilst more open and dynamic was missing some resolution and tonality.

Re-visited the NUC this weekend this time with a linux bridge on server - (X10 SBA board with LAN clocked by Sclk-ex).

Things are sounding much better, improved tonality plus missing dynamics.

Now with 2 spare sclk-ex clocks thinking about that little NUC but i'll think i'll wait till the dust has settled and more reports from you guys

[MrUnderhill]

1 hour ago, mourip said:

 

Now that I am experimenting with AL/NUC I am finding myself reevaluating everything about my system and considering things that I have bypassed previously.

 

One of the obvious ones is HQPlayer which I have never used. I tend to play files at their native resolution, not use DSD, and am limited to 24/192 by my DAC. Is there anything that HQPlayer would offer me?

I would encourage you to play.

 

For me both transcoding to DSD and upsampling have an obvious effect, but one I think brings downsides as well. This is obviously a marmite issue as some love it. The only way you will know is to try it. If you are running with LMS then C-3PO gives you an easy way to upsample, but HQPlayer is a whole other level of sophistication IMO.