A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[sig8]

I use HQPe as player with JRiver as control point. Piero has not been able to make Jriver run on headless. 

[Middy]

7 hours ago, misterspense said:

Great stuff! Been following this thread for some time, really interested in the NUC approach, but totally lost on what version I should buy. A generation 7 celeron? Or buy an i3 or i5 because the much faster processor will give lower latency? Or would the faster processor generate more noise? Would a fanless Asus be as good as the Intel in Akasa case? Expect that the Asus will have a better BIOS, but maybe no 'magic sauce'? Is the magic happening in the ddr3 ram? Buy ram the uses the lowest current? So much to think about...

Hi all and thanks to all for this superb thread and the CA community.....

I am in the same boat as many i think who want a simple PC not a server or high price box. 8 power lines or a pcie ocx network card MAC..(Any Antipodes or faun freebies just pm me) i've ran off an android phone but tried my Qutest with my old gaming pc no fancy power conditioning and liked the sound. 

I really respect the effort of the CA members to push the boundaries. I suppose i am waiting for a NUC solution with basic instruction and buying guide. I can have the options of roon ect later..  with power, cables and upgrades.

Just load up my flacs and use my phone as a remote. No monitor. Linux is a scary prospect.

£200+ is a bargin in this hobby and managable. But the added complexity beyond my skill level is daunting. My needs are not the same as others but i am trying to guide some young audio newbies into a low cost set up. Amp dac headphones with a millennial transport option..... NUC seems an answer for all tiers of audiophile and still have space for highend products.

May be i am just asking for a one hit  guide but there still seems a lot of road yet to travel for both fine tuning and implementation.

 

Thanks again and good luck.

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

[sig8]

Has anyone tried to JSSG 360 an 24 pin ATX cable? I am trying to do that, but do not know what to use for the shields. Please let me know. Thanks.

[lmitche]

4 hours ago, Dev said:

 

if you are running Audiolinux headless mode, 8Gb Ram should just work as it does for me.

or even 4gb.

[kelvinwsy]

1 hour ago, sig8 said:

Has anyone tried to JSSG 360 an 24 pin ATX cable? I am trying to do that, but do not know what to use for the shields. Please let me know. Thanks.

i have done JSSG 360 on a pair of SATA cables - one for the OS and one for the music SDD.

With a twist. I did a earth wire connection and led it back to the one IEC plug and earthed it at my Furutech eTGP-615 6 outlet unit.

I did a heavy shielding on the 24 pin ATX cable but did not do the 2nd layer of shielding. This Weekend's DIY Chore. 

Oh Materials. I use aluminium foil and basic scotch wrapping tape. I know - not what everyone uses. But the reduction of background noise is just unbelievable. So it works for me. YMMV of course

On my PC which uses a Corsair RMX 550 ATX PSU, the entire pC is filtered and all fans are filtered, Linear DC 5 V to each of the SSD's, even using HQPlayer and NAA with a SOTM SMS200 Ultra Neo Even THEN, I can hear the difference afterwards.

Audition with Live Albums. Sarah Bareilles - Live at the Variety Playhouse 96k from HD Tracks is a good test album.

Audience noise - Hall ambience. The increased height image positioning of her Piano soundboard/Key board vs the center of the microphone for her vocals is just astounding.

Some more testing this weekend after JSSG 360 on the 24 pin cable.

Happy Listening

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Chris can delete this post if someone here feels inclined to report me. 

 

 

Umm, Alex, I know you admitted this was semi-shameless promotion, but... this would be more appropriate in your own sponsored area. On this thread, I'd prefer to not have vendors plug their products directly.

 

Also - I want to be clear that I have no business affiliation with you, and my opinion of the JS-2 in that review was in the context of the Brooklyn DAC+ and its supplied SMPS, not other high-end PSUs. BTW - my impending Pro iDSD review (should be out in the next day or two) also puts the JS-2 in context with the SR-7.

 

If people look back in the thread index, I've talked about my opinion of the JS-2 relative to other PSUs in both low- and high-current applications:

• @austinpop PSU followup

[kelvinwsy]

25 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said:

i have done JSSG 360 on a pair of SATA cables - one for the OS and one for the music SDD.

With a twist. I did a earth wire connection and led it back to the one IEC plug and earthed it at my Furutech eTGP-615 6 outlet unit.

I did a heavy shielding on the 24 pin ATX cable but did not do the 2nd layer of shielding. This Weekend's DIY Chore. 

Oh Materials. I use aluminium foil and basic scotch wrapping tape. I know - not what everyone uses. But the reduction of background noise is just unbelievable. So it works for me. YMMV of course

On my PC which uses a Corsair RMX 550 ATX PSU, the entire pC is filtered and all fans are filtered, Linear DC 5 V to each of the SSD's, even using HQPlayer and NAA with a SOTM SMS200 Ultra Neo Even THEN, I can hear the difference afterwards.

Audition with Live Albums. Sarah Bareilles - Live at the Variety Playhouse 96k from HD Tracks is a good test album.

Audience noise - Hall ambience. The increased height image positioning of her Piano soundboard/Key board vs the center of the microphone for her vocals is just astounding.

Some more testing this weekend after JSSG 360 on the 24 pin cable.

Happy Listening

oh i did upgrade the two Sata data cables to a high gauge Japanese type.. This help in the SQ Jump I guess

[Superdad]

23 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Umm, Alex, I know you admitted this was semi-shameless promotion, but... this would be more appropriate in your own sponsored area. On this thread, I'd prefer to not have vendors plug their products directly.

 

My apologies Rajiv.  You are of course correct--and as well you have been very clear about your fine assessments of our and other power supplies. Your kindness is always appreciated.

[the_doc735]

On 10/24/2018 at 9:42 PM, romaz said:

Here is what is really interesting to me.  As I have posted, I was quite surprised when this cheap AudioLinux-based NUC that I stumbled upon outperformed my much more expensive SE but only when I powered my NUC with my DR SR7.  When powered by an SR rail from my SR7, I felt the NUC still had a slight edge over the SE but with the DR rail, the superiority of the NUC was incontrovertible.  During blinded tests, friends and family unanimously chose the NUC as sounding better than the SE.

A lot of talk scattered about NUC's in this thread.....

 

A throrn in the side of the NUC perhaps?

 

"Audiophiles want the best sounding playback system they can afford. Based on my functionality tests and listening sessions, the microRendu could be the solution. I've never had better sounding audio in my room with any other device or server or streamer. Period. Those who want the best must give the microRendu a spin". 

"commercial motherboards contain extremely noisy DC to DC converters and switch mode regulators. Thus, even though an expensive linear power supply may be used on the outside, the power signal is going through a gauntlet of garbage once it hits the motherboard on its way to the USB output that feeds power to the USB DAC". 

Chris Connaker.

see this

 

....seriously considering a rendu 1.4 which is essentially an early version of the ultrarendu, based on this review. Best bang for the buck and a case of diminishing returns for the more you spend. i.e. signature rendu, a lot of dosh for a small return!

I think the 'ultra' with a top end LPSU would be as good as it gets? (for the average punter! - not able to spend say £60,000 on a system)? General purpose mobo's could be 'last year' for me personally now!

 

Any comparisons of NUC Vs. Rendu please?

 

Cheers!

 

PS: NUC's contain commercial mobo's B.T.W.

 

[romaz]

12 hours ago, TheAttorney said:

 

It would also be interesting to see how all this compares to The Linear Solution's DS-1, which, as I understand it, is a productized version of your NUC idea, plus his low latency operating system, plus ocxo clock on ethernet or USB, plus sprinkled with his own magic dust. It costs much more than a DIY NUC, but much less than a Pink Faun 2.16.

 

Adrian at TLS approached me last year about his novel Dream OS (his customized version of AudioLinux) that he said was a key feature of his "The One" server.  The concept of a RAM-based OS was immediately attractive but at the time, I had just finished building my single box custom server that I posted about here on this thread and so I wasn't really open to exploring his big box server. 

 

At some point, I began to yearn for a better server than the one I built that was completely devoid of a noisy SSD and when the NUCs with eMMC drives became available, my curiosity was piqued as eMMC, at least on paper, seemed to embody both the low latency of SSD and the electrical "quietness" of an SD card.  It was at that point that I asked Adrian if I could try out his OS on this particular NUC and he agreed.  This is how his DS-1 came to fruition.  

 

Hoping to differentiate his product offering from a DIY NUC, as you've stated, he has added his own optimizations to his NUC board including an OCXO to either the Ethernet port or to the USB port.  He looked into replacing the system clock but apparently has run into stability issues and so this option is not yet on the table.  As an endpoint, if only one clock can be replaced, I suspect the biggest gain will be to replace the USB clock although as a RoonServer, it would make sense to replace the Ethernet clock.  Ultimately, it is the small size of the NUC chassis that limits him to only a single clock replacement.  Regarding the NUC chassis, the chassis he is looking to use for this NUC is a real stunner and the nicest looking and most solidly built NUC chassis I have ever seen (better looking than the Roon Nucleus chassis which I think is a very classy looking chassis).  This chassis is very expensive and is part of the reason why his DS-1 costs more but this will be a NUC most people will want to display on their rack.  Based on how good TLS's switch and CAT7 cable sound, I have every reason to believe Adrian's winning trend will continue with the DS-1.  Ultimately, I believe it will be the quality of the PSU that truly sets the DS-1 apart from his competition and the beauty of this type of device is that an individual is free to choose.  For those looking for a turnkey solution that would have the potential to trample a $17k Aurender W20 for <1/10th the cost, give the DS-1 serious consideration.  Furthermore, Adrian is a super nice guy.

[the_doc735]

52 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

A lot of talk scattered about NUC's in this thread.....

 

A throrn in the side of the NUC perhaps?

 

"Audiophiles want the best sounding playback system they can afford. Based on my functionality tests and listening sessions, the microRendu could be the solution. I've never had better sounding audio in my room with any other device or server or streamer. Period. Those who want the best must give the microRendu a spin". 

"commercial motherboards contain extremely noisy DC to DC converters and switch mode regulators. Thus, even though an expensive linear power supply may be used on the outside, the power signal is going through a gauntlet of garbage once it hits the motherboard on its way to the USB output that feeds power to the USB DAC". 

Chris Connaker.

see this

 

....seriously considering a rendu 1.4 which is essentially an early version of the ultrarendu, based on this review. Best bang for the buck and a case of diminishing returns for the more you spend. i.e. signature rendu, a lot of dosh for a small return!

I think the 'ultra' with a top end LPSU would be as good as it gets? (for the average punter! - not able to spend say £60,000 on a system)? General purpose mobo's could be 'last year' for me personally now!

 

Any comparisons of NUC Vs. Rendu please?

 

Cheers!

 

PS: NUC's contain commercial mobo's B.T.W.

 

The  Innuos Zenith SE also contains a commercial  supermicro mobo B.T.W. with "extremely noisy DC to DC converters and switch mode" regulators. So, I am not surprised that the humble NUC beats it hands down because it is tinier than the SE with probably less of those annoying converters onboard? (but they are still there!).

[romaz]

10 hours ago, Dev said:

It would be interesting to know how all these PSU rank.

 

This would be an interesting comparison to make and I think we would all be interested in such a shootout.  With regards to a NUC, aside from power supplies from Paul Hynes, TLS and Mojo Audio, you can also get a customized PSU from Sean Jacobs, Kenneth Lau, and Paul Pang.  While not customizable,  there is the excellent JS-2, the latest HDPlex with LT30451 regs, and well regarded offerings from Teradak and SBooster.

 

Competition is good for the consumer and I think it drives each manufacturer to continue to improve their own offerings.  For those who are in the SR7 queue and are willing to spend the money for the very best, based on demand, Paul Hynes is now offering the option of a Teflon circuit board to reduce dielectric absorption in the regulator circuitry and Vishay Z Foil ultra precision bulk foil resistors which reduce resistor noise and thermal drift to very low levels.  Paul has not yet told me what this upgrade will cost but I suspect it won't come cheap although based on how he described their impact, it will be worth every penny.

 

Lastly, I did not mean to suggest that for a component to be worthwhile, it needs a DR rail from an SR7.  My main point was to suggest that if you decide to employ a "spaghetti solution" of components, ideally, each component should be powered to an equivalent standard or else you will likely run into a bottleneck.  Given how well the Zenith SE is powered, if a component that follows it isn't equally well powered, you may get suboptimal results and so in some situations, a spaghetti solution may not be the best way to go.  As always, assume nothing and trust your ears.

[romaz]

1 hour ago, the_doc735 said:

A lot of talk scattered about NUC's in this thread.....

 

A throrn in the side of the NUC perhaps?

 

"Audiophiles want the best sounding playback system they can afford. Based on my functionality tests and listening sessions, the microRendu could be the solution. I've never had better sounding audio in my room with any other device or server or streamer. Period. Those who want the best must give the microRendu a spin". 

"commercial motherboards contain extremely noisy DC to DC converters and switch mode regulators. Thus, even though an expensive linear power supply may be used on the outside, the power signal is going through a gauntlet of garbage once it hits the motherboard on its way to the USB output that feeds power to the USB DAC". 

Chris Connaker.

see this

 

....seriously considering a rendu 1.4 which is essentially an early version of the ultrarendu, based on this review. Best bang for the buck and a case of diminishing returns for the more you spend. i.e. signature rendu, a lot of dosh for a small return!

I think the 'ultra' with a top end LPSU would be as good as it gets? (for the average punter! - not able to spend say £60,000 on a system)? General purpose mobo's could be 'last year' for me personally now!

 

Any comparisons of NUC Vs. Rendu please?

 

Cheers!

 

PS: NUC's contain commercial mobo's B.T.W.

 

 

Yes, I still own a microRendu.  As a small low impedance device designed from the ground up for high-end audio reproduction (unlike a NUC), you would think these small devices should rule the world.  No disrespect to the microRendu which was a landmark product upon its release but the NUC I am working with, with all of its noisy switching regs and clocks soundly outperforms the microRendu at 1/3 it's price.

[the_doc735]

17 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

Yes, I still own a microRendu.  As a small low impedance device designed from the ground up for high-end audio reproduction (unlike a NUC), you would think these small devices should rule the world.  No disrespect to the microRendu which was a landmark product upon its release but the NUC I am working with, with all of its noisy switching regs and clocks soundly outperforms the microRendu at 1/3 it's price.

what price is that (1/3) please?

Cheers!

[romaz]

5 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

what price is that (1/3) please?

Cheers!

 

I paid $118 USD for this NUC:

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1401554-REG/intel_boxnuc7cjyh1_intel_nuc_kit_nuc7cjyh.html

 

I paid $80 USD for 8GB of RAM:

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&amp;A=accessoryIntermediate&amp;Q=&amp;sku=1244579&amp;is=REG

 

A microRendu without a PSU sells for $640.

[Dev]

6 hours ago, lmitche said:

or even 4gb.

 

The headless root fs install is little less than 3gb, so yes a 4gb should also work. I am very certain that Piero can even cut it down further with some more effort. 3G is a lot of space for an audio system. Rock is much smaller.

 

Did you notice a difference in SQ between 4 and 8 gb RAM ? There is no reason why a 4gb shouldn't sound a little better :-)

[the_doc735]

57 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

I paid $118 USD for this NUC:

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1401554-REG/intel_boxnuc7cjyh1_intel_nuc_kit_nuc7cjyh.html

 

I paid $80 USD for 8GB of RAM:

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&amp;A=accessoryIntermediate&amp;Q=&amp;sku=1244579&amp;is=REG

 

A microRendu without a PSU sells for $640.

Looks like a really good deal mate!

I have the opportunity of a rendu 1.4 (aka: ultra rendu) for $300 AUD? ($875 RRP/MSRP).

With all respect, Do you have any justification for your statement that the NUC outperforms the rendu 1.3/1.4 ? Or is it based purely on listening? e.g. things like graphic charts superimposed ?

Your proof could influence my purchase decision! So it's quite important to me, at this moment in time!

Cheers!

[romaz]

4 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

Looks like a really good deal mate!

I have the opportunity of a rendu 1.4 (aka: ultra rendu) for $300 AUD?

With all respect, Do you have any justification for your statement that the NUC outperforms the rendu 1.3/1.4 ? Or is it based purely on listening? e.g. things like graphic charts superimposed ?

Your proof could influence my purchase decision! So it's quite important to me, at this moment in time!

Cheers!

 

I'm not sure what you mean by graphics charts superimposed?  If you mean measurements, no, I have no measuring equipment other than my ears to tell me how good something sounds.  In fact, you won't find any meaningful measurements for the microRendu either.  What I will tell you is that to my ears, the difference between the two is not subtle but don't take my word for it, do your own comparison.  These are not wildly expensive pieces and you should be able to easily re-sell or re-purpose the loser.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, romaz said:

He looked into replacing the system clock but apparently has run into stability issues and so this option is not yet on the table.  As an endpoint, if only one clock can be replaced,

 

Hi Roy,

 

This seems to swing the pendulum back to the best approach being having the NUC modified by SOtM with an sCLK-EX board in the chassis, that can reclock all 3 - the Ethernet, USB, and the system clock.

 

For the record - Roy know this well - I did try an early NUC with Adrian's Dream OS. The difference was that I didn't have access to an SR-7, and the NUC was provisioned with an SSD to load the OS. So, while not quite the optimal config that Larry and Roy have now found, this should have still displayed the benefits of the ramboot OS that Roy is talking about. Powered by an SR-4 set at 12V, this NUC (running Roon Bridge, with SE as Roon Server) did not outperform my SE direct.

 

Since I trust Roy's ears, I've got to believe that it's the PSU that makes the difference - along with using the USB stick to boot. I am waiting to confirm this with a DS-1 when Adrian sends me one.

[the_doc735]

31 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

1)  I'm not sure what you mean by graphics charts superimposed?  If you mean measurements, no, I have no measuring equipment other than my ears to tell me how good something sounds. 

2 ) In fact, you won't find any meaningful measurements for the microRendu either. 

3  )What I will tell you is that to my ears, the difference between the two is not subtle but don't take my word for it, do your own comparison. 

4) These are not wildly expensive pieces and you should be able to easily re-sell or re-purpose the loser.

1) yes I do mean measurements.

2) I didn't know that!

3) was that a blind test where you didn't know which you were listening to? Yes I could afford to compare!

4) true

 

thanks very much for your unbiased input!

take care!

[the_doc735]

31 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Since I trust Roy's ears, I've got to believe that it's the PSU that makes the difference 

 

are these blind tests where you are totally unaware which device is being implemented (& presented to your ears)? If you know which device you are listening to, before you listen to it, surely that creates a placebo effect?

My friend John Wood the UK valve amp specialist, says that you can never trust your ears because it's far too unpredictable and inaccurate.

Cheers!

take care!

[Confused]

 

Regards the NUC versus mR debate, I suspect what we have is an apples versus pears comparison.  In other words, it seems likely to me that the products like the microRendu / ultraRendu / SOtM items are superior in terms of the hardware offered, but the NUC solution pulls ahead due to the benefits of the Audiolinux implementation.  One thing does look clearly understood now, and that is all solutions benefit from good power.  There are also differences in operability.  The Sonore / SOtM products are Roon Ready, HQP compatible, can run Shairport etc.  They are also pretty much "plug and play".  To set up an Audiolinux NUC would take time and effort, and how much time and effort would be very dependant on an individuals skills and experience in the area, for some it would be easy, for others very difficult to impossible.  As an example, I am sure I could do it, but I know it would take me personally quite a lot of time and effort, which is time I do not have at the moment, so it effectively ceases to be a realistic option.

 

So I am speculating that the true killer product for SQ would be something like the ultraRendu or sMS-200Ultra but with Audiolinux fully integrated.  With decent power, of course.

[Dev]

2 minutes ago, Confused said:

So I am speculating that the true killer product for SQ would be something like the ultraRendu or sMS-200Ultra but with Audiolinux fully integrated.  With decent power, of course.

 

May not still beat the NUC + Audiolinux combo. The difference in processor architecture, their cache systems, pipelines, noise profiles can play a significant role in the sound quality. Too many variables at play and we can only be certain from subjective listening.

[Confused]

1 minute ago, Dev said:

 

May not still beat the NUC + Audiolinux combo. The difference in processor architecture, their cache systems, pipelines, noise profiles can play a significant role in the sound quality. Too many variables at play and we can only be certain from subjective listening.

Yes agreed.  Although if a "turnkey" device was properly designed with the correct and optimum architecture, then it should, in theory, come out on top.  We will never know for sure until it happens, of course. 

[kelvinwsy]

31 minutes ago, Confused said:

 

Regards the NUC versus mR debate, I suspect what we have is an apples versus pears comparison.  In other words, it seems likely to me that the products like the microRendu / ultraRendu / SOtM items are superior in terms of the hardware offered, but the NUC solution pulls ahead due to the benefits of the Audiolinux implementation.  One thing does look clearly understood now, and that is all solutions benefit from good power.  There are also differences in operability.  The Sonore / SOtM products are Roon Ready, HQP compatible, can run Shairport etc.  They are also pretty much "plug and play".  To set up an Audiolinux NUC would take time and effort, and how much time and effort would be very dependant on an individuals skills and experience in the area, for some it would be easy, for others very difficult to impossible.  As an example, I am sure I could do it, but I know it would take me personally quite a lot of time and effort, which is time I do not have at the moment, so it effectively ceases to be a realistic option.

 

So I am speculating that the true killer product for SQ would be something like the ultraRendu or sMS-200Ultra but with Audiolinux fully integrated.  With decent power, of course.

I like to share my experiences.. I was using a Minix Neo Z83-4 Cherry Trail intel X5-Z8350 fanless minipc as a NAA with 4gb DDR3 Ram and a Samsung 32gb eMMC 

Running Win 10 preloaded as a NAA Endpoint to my Intel 6700k HQPLAYER PC - fully powered with a 12v Linear DC psu -Process Lasso / Fidelizer 8.1 Pro...  it was no competition vs my new Sotm SM200 Ultra Neo

 

If the latest findings by CA members that the new generation of Intel 7th/8th Generation NUCs sound better than everthing else, I offer my own theories why this could be so

1. The eMMC is noisy.. so running the OS from RAM is vital

2. Audiolinux is low latency low power with all the benefits

3. Switching from Win 10 gives a lot of the SQ gains Win 10 does not sound good

 

On the third point once i switch to Win Server 2016 core / Audiophile Optimizer on the Hqplayer big PC and with the same Minix Neo NAA

The immediacy, sense of calm and control jumped compared to win 10

 

I found the SOTM approach more user friendly

Used to spend long minutes on task mgr/process lasso  closing processes still running that Fidelizer did not shut down! 

but i am still going to try audiolinux on my Minix Minipc with USB Bootup and compare the SQ with Win 10 OS and the SM200 ultra neo

 

Results in due course