dCS Network Bridge

[xtraktz]

Who used pair of Oyaide AR-910 as AES/EBU for Dual AES connection and Oyaide DB-510 BNC for the W/C from NB to DAC? 
Could you recommend them as first buy? Or is it better to buy one expensive cable and use single AES mode.

Thanks in advance. 

[xtraktz]

I bought pair of 1m Oyaide AR-910, the first impression is very good, especially the dual AES mode. 

Should I worry that the dual AES does not work for the files below 88.2kHz ?

 

Could somebody recommend Oyaide DB-510 BNC to buy for connect NB's w/c OUT to Debussy's w/c IN?

[Pedro Romão]

On 10/4/2018 at 10:13 AM, xtraktz said:

I bought pair of 1m Oyaide AR-910, the first impression is very good, especially the dual AES mode. 

Should I worry that the dual AES does not work for the files below 88.2kHz ?

 

Could somebody recommend Oyaide DB-510 BNC to buy for connect NB's w/c OUT to Debussy's w/c IN?

Have the opposite question. I have the DB-510 BNC for the clock out and its a great piece, fully recommend it,I am considering now buying the AR-910 for the due AES.

[xtraktz]

6 hours ago, Pedro Romão said:

Have the opposite question. I have the DB-510 BNC for the clock out and its a great piece, fully recommend it,I am considering now buying the AR-910 for the due AES.

What AES cable are you using now?
I can't say anything bad about AR-910 cable. This is the Oyaide's top cable. In my opinion it's perfect as first cable. Besides, it is sold by a pair for Dual AES and has an adequate price, it's also 110 Ohm .

What DB-510 BNC length do you use? Does it make a big difference with or without this clock cable? Have you tried other BNC cables?

[Pedro Romão]

I have tried other BNC cables from several brands (some much more expensive) and the Oyaide was the best, so I bought it.

 

1 m. for the AR-910.

[xtraktz]

4 hours ago, Pedro Romão said:

1 m. for the AR-910.

Are you bought it also?

[Pedro Romão]

On 8/5/2018 at 8:54 AM, Pedro Romão said:

Romao in again to report on issue (non)handling by dCS and Dealer

- dCS assumes no responsibility whatsoever;

- Dealer proposes to solve by itself (no dCS involved) IF I am ready to spend another 8k euros (I assuming here something like part exchanging my NB for another dCS product, but thats my guessing)

 

Obviously I refused and invested on a new DAC (second hand) that works with my NB.

 

I could have bought a dCS one second hand also for roughly the same amount I paid, but...

 

... I have NOT been treated right on this matter and so I refuse to buy dCS again. Good Job, boys!

 

Romao out again

 

On 8/5/2018 at 8:54 AM, Pedro Romão said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Running my issue through my dCS dealer, hoping it will be more effective.

 

Nevertheless I would like to share here my view on this issue on an as objective as possible way.

 

I believe that things are clear now from dCS side and at least I mislead myself (or as likely was mislead):

 

- The dCS NB was designed for existing dCS owners with older dacs.

- New clients out of the dCS then existing universe were lateral earnings.

 

Problem IS that NB's were sold to many clients out of the dCS ecossystem (I would love to understand how many NB owners do not have a dCS DAC - like myself).

 

These new clients are very likely like me people who do not - at least at this point  - the possibility to buy a dCS DAC and have to live with something else. In my case its an Auralic Vega that does NOT do DSD over anything else than an USB output. Most of the DACS out there are like this.

 

Therefore, for these "new" clients that entered the dCS world, USB is important and WAS announced it would come, as it is the ONLY way to play DSD with the NB. This is not a debate over the DSD virtues or lack of (or MQA for that matter), if people want to use one or the other its because they like to do so and its important to them.

 

For my own side, I still do not regret buying the NB, as it still was the best sound I have had had in my system, but I feel mislead on this situation. And mislead clients do not likely stay with the brand. I am a business developer and I am very sure of that.

 

I understand the financial decision behind dropping off USB - it is a financial one, not a technical, as you could always hire someone to do this specific job thus leaving the development team to go on doing the other stuff - but still feel that dCS should have behaved (much) better with these new clients.

 

Romao out.

[Cooler]

@AMP, is that possible to connect mutec ref10 to dcs network bridge?

Another question about clocks, which are the clocks better, the dCS NB's clocks or the dCS Paganini's clocks or the dCS Paganini masterclock's clocks?

 

When you build dCS setups, which cables do you usually use for connecting clocks between devices?

[Cooler]

On 10/13/2018 at 10:37 AM, Pedro Romão said:

I have tried other BNC cables from several brands (some much more expensive) and the Oyaide was the best, so I bought it.

 

1 m. for the AR-910.

 

Did you try Habst Digital BNC 5N Cryo Reinsilber?

[Beolab]

On 10/13/2018 at 10:37 AM, Pedro Romão said:

I have tried other BNC cables from several brands (some much more expensive) and the Oyaide was the best, so I bought it.

 

1 m. for the AR-910.

 

The Oyaide AR-910 is a 110 Ohm AES/EBU cable, and BNC needs 75 Ohm if used as word.sync or spdif . 

 

?? 

[AMP]

2 hours ago, Cooler said:

is that possible to connect mutec ref10 to dcs network bridge?

 

No, the ref10 only outputs a 10MHz reference. The Bridge needs a word clock at a frequency that is a multiple of the rate of the file being played (44.1KHz and 48KHz are the most commonly-used frequencies).

 

2 hours ago, Cooler said:

Another question about clocks, which are the clocks better, the dCS NB's clocks or the dCS Paganini's clocks or the dCS Paganini masterclock's clocks?

 

The Paganini master clock is going to show superior performance. The Paganini DAC has an excellent clock circuit, but it is only capable of outputting a reference at 44.1KHz (not 48KHz) so it can't act as a master for all sample rates (won't work with 48K, 96K, 192K or 384K).

 

If you're going to use the word clock functionality then all of the devices in the digital chain need to be synced to the SAME clock. That clock needs to provide a reference at a multiple of the sample rate of the file being played. In the case of the Paganini clock that means that you will need to manually change the clock's output every time you switch playback between 44.1K based sample rates (including DSD) and 48K based sample rates.

 

2 hours ago, Cooler said:

When you build dCS setups, which cables do you usually use for connecting clocks between devices?

 

Clock cables need to be of good quality, BNC terminated, and have 75 Ohm impedance. The impedance is typically the difficult part in any digital cable as many that say they are 75Ohm are quite a bit off that spec. There are also two versions of the BNC connector (50 Ohm and 75 Ohm) with the 50 Ohm version being far more common. Best to purchase from a reputable manufacturer, check the specs, and be sure they're using the right connector.

[Cooler]

 

Thanks for the fast answer, but i am confused with the manual change of clock. So i will ask more straightforward

1. dCS NB as master clock to dCS Paganini DAC will sound better, than NB and Paganini DAC without connected bnc cable to each other?

2. dCS Paganini masterclock as master clock to dCS NB and dCS Paganini DAC will sound better, than option 1?

 

In this situation(option 2) i have to change clock on dCS Paganini masterclock manually all the time the sample rate of the file changes? And there is no auto sync option, that dCS NB or Paganini DAC will control the frequency of Paganini masterclock? Is that correct?

 

15 minutes ago, AMP said:

That clock needs to provide a reference at a multiple of the sample rate of the file being played. In the case of the Paganini clock that means that you will need to manually change the clock's output every time you switch playback between 44.1K based sample rates (including DSD) and 48K based sample rates.

 

And the last, which cables do you use for clocks in your demo room? CA guys visited that demo room some time ago  

 

Thanks!

[xtraktz]

19 hours ago, AMP said:

The Paganini DAC has an excellent clock circuit, but it is only capable of outputting a reference at 44.1KHz (not 48KHz) so it can't act as a master for all sample rates (won't work with 48K, 96K, 192K or 384K).

@AMP 

What are the sample rates limits will be in case of using NB as Master clock connected to Debussy directly (as slave)?

 

Should NB be configured for use as a Master clock in dCS App or ROON?

[AMP]

23 hours ago, Cooler said:

1. dCS NB as master clock to dCS Paganini DAC will sound better, than NB and Paganini DAC without connected bnc cable to each other?

 

Yes

 

23 hours ago, Cooler said:

2. dCS Paganini masterclock as master clock to dCS NB and dCS Paganini DAC will sound better, than option 1?

 

Yes, it should.

 

23 hours ago, Cooler said:

In this situation(option 2) i have to change clock on dCS Paganini masterclock manually all the time the sample rate of the file changes? And there is no auto sync option, that dCS NB or Paganini DAC will control the frequency of Paganini masterclock? Is that correct?

 

You'll need to change the output frequency of the clock whenever the base sample rate of the file changes. For 44.1, 88.2, 176.4, 352.8, and DSD the clock needs to output 44.1K and for 48, 96, 192, and 384 the clock needs to output 48K. The Paganini DAC cannot control the clock and although we're investigating providing this function via the Network Bridge we don't have any information on when (or if) that function will be implemented.

 

23 hours ago, Cooler said:

And the last, which cables do you use for clocks in your demo room?

 

We're typically using either Transparent XL or Nordost V2. In both cases one cable is at least as costly as the Bridge itself! We don't make any specific recommendations and use those two as those are typically what our dealers and customers are using with our products.

 

3 hours ago, xtraktz said:

What are the sample rates limits will be in case of using NB as Master clock connected to Debussy directly (as slave)?

 

None. You'll have the ability to play any of the rates supported by the Debussy.

 

3 hours ago, xtraktz said:

Should NB be configured for use as a Master clock in dCS App or ROON?

 

There is no configuration option for the audio clock in Roon or the dCS app. Roon has a setting called "Clock Master Priority" but that's related to grouped playback synchronization and has nothing to do with the world clock used for decoding.

[Cooler]

4 hours ago, xtraktz said:

Should NB be configured for use as a Master clock in dCS App or ROON?

In my case paganini, has a sync button with few options: audio, wrldclock and master. So once you connect NB as a master clock, select in dac wrldclock, then dac will automatically sync to NB, if audio frequency changes, NB will inform dac about that, and dac will change it too. There is some gap during this process, so i put 5000ms delay between tracks in roon, otherwise, track will start playing and after few seconds you will hear it, not from the beginning. It only happens, if audio frequency changes, but a little bit annoying though.

[Cooler]

25 minutes ago, AMP said:

we don't have any information on when (or if) that function will be implemented.

 

Thank you, could you please inform us, if you add this feature! I will not buy any master clocks until that.

[xtraktz]

1 hour ago, AMP said:

None. You'll have the ability to play any of the rates supported by the Debussy.

Thanks @AMP Then I do not see any contraindications for using BNC cable in addition to the dual AES

 

One question more (sorry, not one))). 

Should I worry that Dual AES is not used for files 44.1 and 48 and starts from 88.2 ?

What are the benefits of using Dual AES for higher sample rates files ?

Should I use ROON upsampling for 44.1/48 to 88.2 or higher or is it possible to add Dual AES mode for redbook in the new firmware?? 

 

[Beolab]

5 hours ago, AMP said:

 

Yes

 

 

Yes, it should.

 

 

You'll need to change the output frequency of the clock whenever the base sample rate of the file changes. For 44.1, 88.2, 176.4, 352.8, and DSD the clock needs to output 44.1K and for 48, 96, 192, and 384 the clock needs to output 48K. The Paganini DAC cannot control the clock and although we're investigating providing this function via the Network Bridge we don't have any information on when (or if) that function will be implemented.

 

 

We're typically using either Transparent XL or Nordost V2. In both cases one cable is at least as costly as the Bridge itself! We don't make any specific recommendations and use those two as those are typically what our dealers and customers are using with our products.

 

 

None. You'll have the ability to play any of the rates supported by the Debussy.

 

 

There is no configuration option for the audio clock in Roon or the dCS app. Roon has a setting called "Clock Master Priority" but that's related to grouped playback synchronization and has nothing to do with the world clock used for decoding.

 

 

@AMP

 

Is your knowlege / experience / spec wise that it is better to use the NB streamer as Master word. clock  insted of using the older master clocks like Paganini Master Clock / Puccini U-Clock II etc ?? 

 

That is what what a few users in this thread try to ask you?

 

 

 

 

[Cooler]

As paganini master clock does not automatically switch with audio frequency, i have no interest to it.  The question is simple now: will i get any benefit if i invest into good BNC cable and connect NB to paganini/debussy as master clock.

[k-man]

For simplicity, SQ, and overall future-proofing, wouldn't it be wiser to consider the one box Bartok?

[Cooler]

58 minutes ago, k-man said:

For simplicity, SQ, and overall future-proofing, wouldn't it be wiser to consider the one box Bartok?

 

I heard some rumors, that NB is better streamer, than Bartok's built in, or maybe, because NB isolated box with its PSU, it sounds better. So NB + scarlatti/paganini/debussy > Bartok. But I prefer one box solution too

[AMP]

9 hours ago, xtraktz said:

Should I worry that Dual AES is not used for files 44.1 and 48 and starts from 88.2 ?

 

No, it wasn't designed for low bitrate streams. Nothing to worry about.

 

10 hours ago, xtraktz said:

What are the benefits of using Dual AES for higher sample rates files ?

 

In simplistic terms it makes it easier for the AES/EBU transmitters and receivers to handle high bitrate streams.

 

10 hours ago, xtraktz said:

Should I use ROON upsampling for 44.1/48 to 88.2 or higher or is it possible to add Dual AES mode for redbook in the new firmware??  

 

Dual AES (by definition) only applies to 88.2KS/s streams and above. It will never support anything lower than that. Period. Single AES is more than capable of handling lower rates like 44.1K and 48K.

 

 

5 hours ago, Beolab said:

Is your knowlege / experience / spec wise that it is better to use the NB streamer as Master word. clock  insted of using the older master clocks like Paganini Master Clock / Puccini U-Clock II etc ?? 

 

The older clocks are really good clocks but they have the downside of forcing the user to manually change rates. Sometimes convenience wins.

 

4 hours ago, k-man said:

For simplicity, SQ, and overall future-proofing, wouldn't it be wiser to consider the one box Bartok?

 

Yes, very much so.

 

3 hours ago, Cooler said:

I heard some rumors, that NB is better streamer, than Bartok's built in

 

Nope. The two streaming cards are essentially identical. There are some spec differences, but those are meaningless in the real world.

 

3 hours ago, Cooler said:

because NB isolated box with its PSU, it sounds better.

 

Nope. Makes no difference in this application. Bartok has the benefit of the streaming card sitting in close proximity to the DAC itself. No messing with cables. No external noise issues. It just works better. I keep hearing this rumour out there and I'm not sure who started it. I can assure you that it wasn't dCS. Bartok is just better.

 

3 hours ago, Cooler said:

So NB + scarlatti/paganini/debussy > Bartok. But I prefer one box solution too

 

Scarlatti is a stellar DAC and I'm not sure if Bartok bettered it. Based on my experience with it to date I'd say that the two are probably equal. As for the others, there's no contest whatsoever. The Bartok wins.

[Beolab]

@AMP

 

if we dont care of the functionalities and just focus on the SQ performance, would you then use the NB Streamer as a Master word. clock insted of using a Paganini or Puccini U-Clock II ?? 

 

To clarify my question: 

 

Is if the Word. Clock in the NB Stremer better ? 

 

Try to answer this please ??

[Cooler]

@AMP, this is addressed to you, does NB has better clock, than paganini dac's inner clock?

 

12 hours ago, Cooler said:

will i get any benefit if i invest into good BNC cable and connect NB to paganini as master clock.

[xtraktz]

New firmware 398

https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/support/network-firmware-notes-398/

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/dcs-network-firmware-398-release-announcement/51942